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 Sugar Bowl!!! 
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Post Re: Sugar Bowl!!!
wjb21ndtown wrote:
regularjoe12 wrote:
we're using the same kicker we were using 3 years ago? good god the kids gotten some practice in then. while he needed it we SHOULD have put someone else on the field.


And if it isnt the head coaches job to make sure he has adequate staffing in each position..especially soemthing as repalceable as a college kicker...who the hells fauklt is it? the waterboys?

Common now...you can make excuses all you want but RR ONLY paid attention to the offense. his D and his special teams sucked in SPECTACULAR fashion. thats the head coaches fault no matter how you spin it.


Yes, Gibbons is a Junior. Allegedly he kicks great in practice, but can't get it together in front of 100k people. From what I've heard, UofM regularly has problems with that. Apparently it is a lot easier to kick in front of 60k people. We've tried out 3 other Freshman kickers, and none of them could beat out Gibbons. Brady Hoke tried another Freshman out THIS YEAR and he STILL couldn't beat him, so I guess he is incompetent too. :roll:



well at least the kid can kick a 20 yarder now. I dont expect much from a college kicker but not being able to achieve that means it's time to raid the soccer team. pretty simple.

now try and tell me how a team can fumble more than 5 times a game 3 games in a row and it not being the coaches fault.....


January 12th, 2012, 4:49 pm
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Post Re: Sugar Bowl!!!
Give me a break. You obviously don't watch much Mich. football, and you obviously don't follow the team much. It's not a coach that fumbles the ball. Denard STILL fumbles the ball... I guess by your logic we should fire Hoke now... He must really suck. You can't get over the fact that your ignorant and incorrect notions about Rich Rod are completely false, so you just keep piling on excuses as to why he sucks.


January 13th, 2012, 1:16 pm
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Post Re: Sugar Bowl!!!
um...i didnt say A GUY fumbled too much..I said the TEAM fumble MORE than 5 times a game for a 3 game stretch. now im not saying players cant be held accountable for that...but NO WAY is the coach off the hook. THATS rediculous.

for the record... the first person in a deabte to call someone ignorant....usually is. so you may wanna stop with the name calling, cuz it isn't me looking ignorant


January 13th, 2012, 3:02 pm
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Post Re: Sugar Bowl!!!
regularjoe12 wrote:
um...i didnt say A GUY fumbled too much..I said the TEAM fumble MORE than 5 times a game for a 3 game stretch. now im not saying players cant be held accountable for that...but NO WAY is the coach off the hook. THATS rediculous.

for the record... the first person in a deabte to call someone ignorant....usually is. so you may wanna stop with the name calling, cuz it isn't me looking ignorant


No, you are ignorant regarding Michigan Football. It's not an insult, it is a fact. That isn't name calling, it is an observation. You really had no clue that Gibbons was a Junior kicker, which is what started this ridiculous debate that you're clearly uninformed (a.k.a. - ignorant) about.

We fumbled something like 3 times IN THE FIRST QUARTER in the Sugar Bowl, the MOST IMPORTANT GAME OF THE YEAR! I guess Hoke should be fired??? What a joke! What a SHAM! What a piece of garbage! HOW CAN YOU NOT HAVE THEM COACHED UP BY THE LAST, AND MOST IMPORTANT GAME OF THE YEAR COACH!?!?!?!? Get him out of here now!

Do you see how ridiculous you're being?



You want to ignore the fact that Rich Rod was handed a pile of garbage. You want to ignore the fact that Rich Rod was FORCED to start a Freshman Qb that couldn't start ANYWHERE else in the Country years after he left UofM. Then he was forced to start a sophomore that couldn't throw and hand fumble troubles, and news flash, Denard STILL has trouble fumbling the ball 20 lbs heavier, one year older, and with more coaching under his belt. You ignore the fact that Rich Rod's teams haven't had fumbling troubles in the past, and that Hoke's current team still does. Did Rich Rod's coaching skills regress? Or was he simply forced to coach with players that weren't ready to play?

Read "3 and Out" before you come on here talking about what a garbage coach Rich Rod was.


January 13th, 2012, 3:38 pm
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Post Re: Sugar Bowl!!!
thats odd...I dont remember saying a single bad thing about his offense...I must be too ignorant.....


it's you who is rediculous.

No special teams...no defense.......but no, can't be the coaches fault...who else can we blaim...the boosters maybe?

sigh


January 13th, 2012, 6:53 pm
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Post Re: Sugar Bowl!!!
regularjoe12 wrote:
thats odd...I dont remember saying a single bad thing about his offense...I must be too ignorant.....


it's you who is rediculous.

No special teams...no defense.......but no, can't be the coaches fault...who else can we blaim...the boosters maybe?

sigh


You said he should be fired for fumbling the ball too much, or did you forget? That's something that Hoke hasn't been able to correct, so he should be fired too? Or, is it the players that he was handed? You also blamed the kicker, and you blamed RR for the PERSONNEL decision that he made to go with Gibbons, the SAME kicker that Hoke is playing with. Again, should Hoke be fired for that one as well?

I haven't made one ridiculous assertion in this thread. You're worse than John Kerry with your double speak.


January 17th, 2012, 3:43 pm
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Post Re: Sugar Bowl!!!
wjb21ndtown wrote:
You said he should be fired for fumbling the ball too much, or did you forget? That's something that Hoke hasn't been able to correct, so he should be fired too? Or, is it the players that he was handed? You also blamed the kicker, and you blamed RR for the PERSONNEL decision that he made to go with Gibbons, the SAME kicker that Hoke is playing with. Again, should Hoke be fired for that one as well?

I haven't made one ridiculous assertion in this thread. You're worse than John Kerry with your double speak.


I usually respect your opinions on football, but I can't quite see why you seem to be so vigorously defending RR; if I'm reading that wrongly, then apologies.

I think I'm easier on RR than a lot of MI fans I know, partially because I enjoyed watching the offense (though a good portion of it was just "all the pretty yards"). I think he's a good coach and will likely do well at UA, especially as wide open as the PAC 10 can be, but his downfall here was the defense and special teams, and that's most attributable to his staffing decisions. Casteel didn't come, and that hurt him, but he shouldn't have forced a foreign scheme on the two DCs he hired. Schafer (sp) has gone on to do well at Syrcause; GR was a retread in the first place. His buddy Gibby was a train wreck coaching both secondary and special teams--not one player developed there. You can say those players are maturing now, but under Gibson, players did not improve even within the season, let alone from one to another, nor the linebackers; d-line was okay. You know what happened to the defense rankings each year that crew was here. Those were players who didn't know where to be, who couldn't play assignment football. The same is true of the special teams. They were sloppy.

So yes, while the offense was improving (though the lineman were still a little small as a whole to deal with B1G defenses), it's not a shootout conference. That's on Rich for not learning and adapting, not changing up his staff, not recruiting what he needed on defense. (And really, what elite defensive recruits would come with that staff? You'll get a few, but not enough.)

Your argument about what he inherited are valid--Lloyd or whoever would have had a tough time that year--and it was fun watching that offense progress, though they never got to a point where they could take a punch in the mouth and hit back. But there is no excuse for what was going on with that defense, not at U-M, and Rich is responsible for the team. While the bowl game was a poop again this year, at least they found a way to win instead of just having a train run on them with no response.

And you do know Three and Out is pretty biased, right? Not Rich's or even Bacon's fault that Lloyd, Brandon, or anyone else from the old regime wouldn't talk to Bacon, but that doesn't make it any less a one-sided account, rightly or wrongly.

So I guess I'm curious--would you take RR and his guys over Hoke and his?

And by the way, looking forward, I expect a better team but worse record next year (we had a great schedule this year, much tougher next year), and then much bigger results in the following two years given how recruiting is going. Hell, Borges isn't even fully running his offense yet, and Mattison will crush when he gets more than three or four good defensive guys to coach up.


January 22nd, 2012, 12:05 am
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Post Re: Sugar Bowl!!!
I don't know how much you've kept up on my criticism of RR, but I state over and over that his only fault was not giving up his 3-3-5 defense, and that's not a fault that I take lightly. Not only did he force the 3-3-5 on his new coordinators, he forced it onto a program that didn't have the personnel to implement it. If we had a ton of small, speedy LBs or a ton of DB talent, or a ton of safety types lying around, it may have worked for him. However, that's the area that we had our biggest personnel short-comings at.

I also fault him for not getting William Campbell on the field, at least in goal-line situations (again, not adjusting out of his 3-3-5 scheme), and that's something that Hoke was able to do. That said, I don't think that RR would have had trouble getting players that would have fit his scheme, if he was given time. I think if we didn't lose that jackass Safety out of FL (that idiot that was caught doing the B&E or whatever it was) and if we landed Pryor he would still be our coach. I also think that our OFFENSE would have been better last year under RR, but I will admit that I don't think the TEAM would have been as good (I would take RRs and his offense over Hoke and his offense, but I would take Hoke's scheme, approach, and over-all team over RRs efforts).



That said, RR was mishandled right from the beginning. That much was obvious. How poorly it was mishandled was outlined by Bacon, and I was shocked. While it is one sided, I have no reason to disbelieve his accounts, nor any cause to call him a liar - especially when what he says aligns so perfectly with what experience has shown us, and history has proven to us. Much of his book was based off of first hand accounts, with no other opinion needed. Bacon opened the door for counter opinions, but received none.

I do believe that it is a fact that Les Miles wanted to come here, and that we backed him into staying at LSU. I do believe it was a fact that RR was hired on a phone call, with virtually no interview, and that he was told that he had the support of the "entire UofM family" and that he would be allowed to fulfill his contract. I also believe that RR was told that he had complete control over anything and everything UofM football, was given ZERO initiation regarding rivalries, importance of them, the team, the uniforms, etc. I believe that he was told to come in with a blank slate and "re-make" our program, and his efforts were definitely not met with receptive ears and he should have been warned as such. Everyone that knows the program knows that he committed about 10 no-nos his first season, but those weren't his fault. He literally didn't know better, and that was Bill Martin's fault. For whatever reason it really does seem like Bill Martin hated UofM football. His legacy rests with re-doing virtually ALL of junior league sports arenas and propping up women's sports and less popular men's sports, like wrestling. He seemed to crap on Mich Football while praising women's softball, basketball, etc. It was ridiculous.

To you I seem to "vigorously" defend RR, only because I give him a free pass on virtually all of his initiation errors. I don't believe he even knew about Mich's 43 year (or whatever it was) record of going to a bowl game. I don't believe he was under the impression that he should try to win as many games as possible his first year. That may seem like common sense to some people, but it really isn't. In NCAA football you can either try to win now, or you can ready your team to win in 2-3 years. I think that's what RR was trying to do, while sacrificing wins that he didn't deem necessary. I think he knew he was going to crap the bed the first year and I believe that HE was under the impression that it would be ok to do so, it obviously wasn't. From there it was nothing but a downward spiral of losing support of the "UofM family" that he was promised over and over again. He was a doomed man from his first season, and that was not his fault.

Further, as I mentioned, I think our offense would have been BETTER last year had RR still ran the team. Denard was forced to pass too much last year. His freedom to "take off" whenever he wanted was stripped from him, and he was forced to throw more. I realize that we ran a TON of designed Qb runs, but the "green light" if you will was taken from Denard, which is a big reason that we didn't see a lot of what he could do. I can't agree Mich offense never had the "punch back" effect under RR. That ND game under RR was amazing, where Tate won it with something like 34 seconds left. Could we do it against elite teams? Nope, not yet, but we were still using a 19 year old Qb that couldn't play virtually anywhere else in the Big 10.

IMO people pile on RR and the majority of what they fault him for wasn't his fault. They've developed a hatred for the guy based upon things that he was told to change. IMO if we would have kept our base 4-3 D we PROBABLY could have made a bowl game his first season. I really do wish he was more of a mutable coach that worked better with what he had at the time. I wish he wasn't so concerned with implementing his D with people that didn't fit his program that he adjusted, at least for his first 2-3 years. That said, I can't fault the guy for it. He was told that he was on a 5 year plan, that it was his team, he wasn't going anywhere, and to charge ahead. He was obviously lied to in a number of instances by a number of people, and I can't fault the guy for believing what his superiors told him. He cared deeply about the program, he was a great guy, and he will be a good coach again.


BTW - you know who agrees with me about the state of Mich football, who brought us here (RR not Hoke) and the offense being better had RR stayed? The rest of the Nation. I was down in N.O. for the Sugar Bowl and countless people were talking about how Hoke is doing it with RRs players. Most of the Bama/LSU fans were THANKFUL that we got rid of RR, because they were convinced that he was going to win multiple National Championships at UofM.

That's why it is particularly annoying to me to hear someone talking so ignorantly, blaming RR for Denard's fumbles and blaming him for playing Gibbons at kicker, especially when Hoke is having the EXACT same problems. It's ridiculous. It's also annoying to hear people that aren't "in the know" talking about what a failure RR was and how he "ruined the program." Lloyd Carr left the program in shambles, RR restored it to glory. RRs first season was a perfect example of the state that Carr left the program, this season is a perfect example of the state the RR left the program. He's still proud of "his kids" even though he was treated like crap from his former employer. A little background on me - I went to law school with a former equipment manager, I was friends with a writer from Wolverine magazine, I've been given tickets from Carlos Brown, Vincent Smith, and hung out in the new locker room with players. I've talked to a lot of people, and have had a lot of off-color/off the record discussions with people that know what happened. Virtually every one of the players that I talk to thought RR got a raw deal.


January 23rd, 2012, 4:57 pm
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Post Re: Sugar Bowl!!!
see and here is where we have a problem...you see things from a different perspective but fail to recognize others.

I say multiple-mulitple fumble games is unacceptable. you come back at me with one game and say they're the same. they simply are not.


you admit that RR should have switched defenses. But Im ignorant for saying that defense was flat out unacceptable. I distinctly remember that while there were an exoduse of offensive players when RR took over the same could not be said for the defense. all the press was reporting that the offense was going to struggle and the defense was supposed to carry them untill they were ready. well...they ended up at the bottom of the rankings for almost all of college football.

Look Im an accountability guy. If my hands were on the project whatever goes wrong is MY FAULT. no matter who was aset up to failno matter what did or didnt happen, my hands were on it therefor I am responsible. I hold others to that standard. He was in charge, and durring his stead, the defense and the special teams could have been whooped by community college teams.

Now I wont disagree that he was set up to fail...but he failed GLORIOUSLY. and failure at that level can not simply be deflected and finger pointed elswhere.

But one thing that needs to be pointed out....this is a difference of opinion. and it is based off of expectations being met (or in this case...not even coming close) In no way shape or form does anyone disagreeing with you mean someone is ignorant. You are WAY to prone to doing so and it does nothing but demean yourself when you do it. BE BETTER THAN "THAT" GUY! we all know you are.


January 23rd, 2012, 5:52 pm
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Post Re: Sugar Bowl!!!
wjb21ndtown wrote:
I also think that our OFFENSE would have been better last year under RR, but I will admit that I don't think the TEAM would have been as good (I would take RRs and his offense over Hoke and his offense, but I would take Hoke's scheme, approach, and over-all team over RRs efforts).


Cool, we pretty much agree. Not on everything, but most things, at least in principle. Like I said, apologies if I was misreading what you were saying.

I don't know any current players because I'm a little older than you (knew a few guys on the early 90's teams), but I know some friends of players and coaches who get into some practices. Some loved him, some hated him, but players always get screwed when a coach leaves, whether they're fired or leave for another job. And cool to hear you hang out with Vinny Smith--I'm a fan of his, tough little back and I like the way he plays.


January 24th, 2012, 10:42 pm
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