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 What the Lions SHOULD do in '09 
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dh86 wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
dh86 wrote:
Whens the last time either team traded a mid round pick for an aging veteran? There are reasons why certain teams win. The only trade I can remember is the Patriots trading for Randy Moss. Wonder why the Redskins never meet expectations?


They traded a FIRST DAY pick for Corey Dillon, on top of the pick they gave up for Randy Moss.

I believe that the reason mid-day picks aren't traded more often for starting caliber talent is that the other team doesn't want to give the player up for a mid-round pick.

The Patriots have been willing to do it when it makes sense, and HERE it makes sense. Like I said, they're NOT GOING TO GET a better C NEXT YEAR in the 3rd or 4th round.


Even if a team would trade for Raiola, an instant contract renegotiation would be in store since he counts over 4 million against the cap for the team that trades for him. Koppen was a pro bowler just last year, been in the system for years and a year younger, there is exactly 0% chance that they or any team in the NFL would give up a 4th or higher for Raiola. Raiola does not have equivalent trade value to Shaun Rogers. The Patriots offensive line is doing a good job this season. The Patriots are the 2nd best team running up the middle. The Lions are dead last by a healthy margin. Belichick would be willingly making a strength of his team, a weakness. They will replace a lineman after the year, but the change will be at RT.The Lions will be making a change at Center, but we are just going to have to cut Raiola.


Where do you get this crap from? How does Shan Rogers come into play in your argument?

I've said in prior threads that Raiola may fall into the "has no trade value because teams know that we'll have to cut him" camp, but IMO that isn't solidified until we draft a C early. Further, $4million for your starting C is cheap, and will not preclude Raiola from being traded, nor will it reduce his trade value.


December 20th, 2008, 4:07 pm
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wjb21ndtown wrote:
dh86 wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
dh86 wrote:
Whens the last time either team traded a mid round pick for an aging veteran? There are reasons why certain teams win. The only trade I can remember is the Patriots trading for Randy Moss. Wonder why the Redskins never meet expectations?


They traded a FIRST DAY pick for Corey Dillon, on top of the pick they gave up for Randy Moss.

I believe that the reason mid-day picks aren't traded more often for starting caliber talent is that the other team doesn't want to give the player up for a mid-round pick.

The Patriots have been willing to do it when it makes sense, and HERE it makes sense. Like I said, they're NOT GOING TO GET a better C NEXT YEAR in the 3rd or 4th round.


Even if a team would trade for Raiola, an instant contract renegotiation would be in store since he counts over 4 million against the cap for the team that trades for him. Koppen was a pro bowler just last year, been in the system for years and a year younger, there is exactly 0% chance that they or any team in the NFL would give up a 4th or higher for Raiola. Raiola does not have equivalent trade value to Shaun Rogers. The Patriots offensive line is doing a good job this season. The Patriots are the 2nd best team running up the middle. The Lions are dead last by a healthy margin. Belichick would be willingly making a strength of his team, a weakness. They will replace a lineman after the year, but the change will be at RT.The Lions will be making a change at Center, but we are just going to have to cut Raiola.


Where do you get this crap from? How does Shan Rogers come into play in your argument?

I've said in prior threads that Raiola may fall into the "has no trade value because teams know that we'll have to cut him" camp, but IMO that isn't solidified until we draft a C early. Further, $4million for your starting C is cheap, and will not preclude Raiola from being traded, nor will it reduce his trade value.


Shaun Rogers got traded for a third. You suggested that he has equivalent trade value. The cap numbers came from Netrat. The observation about the Lions and Pats running tendencies come from watching the teams. Teams rarely trade draft picks for vets due to players being worn down by the age of 30 in most cases. Look at the Redskins routinely doing just that, now they are thin depthwise and aging on defense. Its no wonder they went from 6-2 to 7-7. I definitely hope the Lions can get a third for Dom, but highly doubtful.


December 20th, 2008, 8:47 pm
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dh86 wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
dh86 wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
dh86 wrote:
Whens the last time either team traded a mid round pick for an aging veteran? There are reasons why certain teams win. The only trade I can remember is the Patriots trading for Randy Moss. Wonder why the Redskins never meet expectations?


They traded a FIRST DAY pick for Corey Dillon, on top of the pick they gave up for Randy Moss.

I believe that the reason mid-day picks aren't traded more often for starting caliber talent is that the other team doesn't want to give the player up for a mid-round pick.

The Patriots have been willing to do it when it makes sense, and HERE it makes sense. Like I said, they're NOT GOING TO GET a better C NEXT YEAR in the 3rd or 4th round.


Even if a team would trade for Raiola, an instant contract renegotiation would be in store since he counts over 4 million against the cap for the team that trades for him. Koppen was a pro bowler just last year, been in the system for years and a year younger, there is exactly 0% chance that they or any team in the NFL would give up a 4th or higher for Raiola. Raiola does not have equivalent trade value to Shaun Rogers. The Patriots offensive line is doing a good job this season. The Patriots are the 2nd best team running up the middle. The Lions are dead last by a healthy margin. Belichick would be willingly making a strength of his team, a weakness. They will replace a lineman after the year, but the change will be at RT.The Lions will be making a change at Center, but we are just going to have to cut Raiola.


Where do you get this crap from? How does Shan Rogers come into play in your argument?

I've said in prior threads that Raiola may fall into the "has no trade value because teams know that we'll have to cut him" camp, but IMO that isn't solidified until we draft a C early. Further, $4million for your starting C is cheap, and will not preclude Raiola from being traded, nor will it reduce his trade value.


Shaun Rogers got traded for a third. You suggested that he has equivalent trade value. The cap numbers came from Netrat. The observation about the Lions and Pats running tendencies come from watching the teams. Teams rarely trade draft picks for vets due to players being worn down by the age of 30 in most cases. Look at the Redskins routinely doing just that, now they are thin depthwise and aging on defense. Its no wonder they went from 6-2 to 7-7. I definitely hope the Lions can get a third for Dom, but highly doubtful.


Shaun Rogers got traded for Leigh Bodden, the third round pick was meant to partially equalize the compensation.

I don't see the Redskins trading for aging vets as much as I see them signing them.

I don't think you can simply "watch" NE run the ball and make the blanket statements that you're making about their running game and the interior of their OL.

Further, regardless of the team, my premise holds true. For a team that wants to win now, you can't find a better talent in the 3rd or 4th rounds than Raiola.

Use AZ or Buffalo if you disagree with NE. No team in the NFL needs a C more than AZ, and they have an aging Qb making their need to win now prevelant. Most mocks have them addressing their defense with their first day picks. The next best way to upgrade their team, IMO, is to get a quality OC like Dom.

Dom becomes a VALUE to them with a 3rd or 4th round pick. It shouldn't matter to them that he only has 3 or so good years left in him. He's better than what's on the board for them in the 3rd or 4th round. He's a sure starter and upgrade to their OL.


December 20th, 2008, 9:59 pm
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Alright guys, I'm throwing my two cents at what I would do to fix this mess if I were WCF (besides pull my own damn plug, lol).

At GM I would go for Pioli first, and if he's gone, Floyd Reese. Both proven winners, both proven drafters, and both haven't scoffed at the notion of coming to Detroit (Reese said he wants the job and could be in Detroit tomorrow, Pioli said he's interested and at least entertaining the thought).

At HC I would bring in McDaniels if Pioli comes in and Cowher if Reese comes in. If McDaniels comes, he'd be the OC as well. If Cowher comes, he'd be the DC. As far as who would be their opposites, I'm not 100% sure, but I do know that coaches that also control one side of the ball seem to have much better records than teams with no HC control.

For my O-scheme, I would bring in the Erhardt-Perkins (Smashmouth football formation, sets up play-action). I'd keep the Tampa because it works with the proper NT.

Before the draft, I would concentrate on bringing a couple of free agents in. I would bring in Cassel at QB and Haynesworth at NT. We have the cap room to make this happen, its just a question of whether they would even consider coming here.

With that being said, lets concentrate on where I would draft...

I would try to trade down whenever possible, because we need all kinds of position players, not just a few key pieces that are missing. I have us trading down to #5 overall with the Raiders. We'll get their second rounder and that will be it. This is fairly realistic. Also, I have Dallas at 21 now, down from 23, for now (that can go as low as 18th if the right situation occurs)

Draft '09 Round(Pick) - Position to Draft (Players by Choice if Available)
1(5) - OT (A. Smith, M. Oher, E. Monroe)
1(23) - LB (A. Curry, R. Maualuga, J. Laurinaitis, B. Cushing)
2(1) - S (T. Mays or W. Moore)
2(5) - CB (A. Smith, K. Lewis, K. Barnes)
3(1) - TE (T. Beckum, R. Purvis)
3(23) - OG (?)
5(1) - WR (J. Shipley) Convert to KR,PR
6(1) - ? (?)
6(23) - ? (?)
7(1) - QB (N. Davis, N. Brown, T. Boeckmann) The first two will almost certainly be gone at this point.

Starters in '09

C- Raiola OG-Backus, Mulitalo OT-1(5), Cherilus TE-Beckum QB-Cassel RB-Smith WR-Johnson, Furrey, Standeford

NT-Haynesworth UT-Redding DE-Avril, White LB-1(23), Sims, Dizon CB-2(5), Bodden SS-Alexander FS-2(1)


Last edited by faulkn22 on December 22nd, 2008, 7:45 am, edited 1 time in total.



December 21st, 2008, 6:12 pm
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faulkn22 wrote:
Alright guys, I'm throwing my two cents at what I would do to fix this mess if I were WCF (besides pull my own damn plug, lol).

At GM I would go for Pioli first, and if he's gone, Floyd Reese. Both proven winners, both proven drafters, and both haven't scoffed at the notion of coming to Detroit (Reese said he wants the job and could be in Detroit tomorrow, Pioli said he's interested and at least entertaining the thought).

At HC I would bring in McDaniels if Pioli comes in and Cowher if Reese comes in. If McDaniels comes, he'd be the OC as well. If Cowher comes, he'd be the DC. As far as who would be their opposites, I'm not 100% sure, but I do know that coaches that also control one side of the ball seem to have much better records than teams with no HC control.

For my O-scheme, I would bring in the Erhardt-Perkins (Smashmouth football formation, sets up play-action). I'd keep the Tampa because it works with the proper NT.

Before the draft, I would concentrate on bringing a couple of free agents in. I would bring in Cassel at QB and Haynesworth at NT. We have the cap room to make this happen, its just a question of whether they would even consider coming here.

With that being said, lets concentrate on where I would draft...

I would try to trade down whenever possible, because we need all kinds of position players, not just a few key pieces that are missing. I have us trading down to #5 overall with the Raiders. We'll get their second rounder and that will be it. This is fairly realistic. Also, I have Dallas at 21 now, down from 23, for now (that can go as low as 18th if the right situation occurs)

Draft '09 Round(Pick) - Position to Draft (Players by Choice if Available)
1(5) - OT (A. Smith, M. Oher, E. Monroe)
1(23) - LB (A. Curry, R. Maualuga, J. Laurinaitis, B. Cushing)
2(1) - S (T. Mays or K. Moore)
2(5) - CB (A. Smith, K. Lewis, K. Barnes)
3(1) - TE (T. Beckum, R. Purvis)
3(23) - OG (?)
5(1) - WR (J. Shipley) Convert to KR,PR
6(1) - ? (?)
6(23) - ? (?)
7(1) - QB (N. Davis, N. Brown, T. Boeckmann) The first two will almost certainly be gone at this point.

Starters in '09

C- Raiola OG-Backus, Mulitalo OT-1(5), Cherilus TE-Beckum QB-Cassel RB-Smith WR-Johnson, Furrey, Standeford

NT-Haynesworth UT-Redding DE-Avril, White LB-1(23), Sims, Dizon CB-2(5), Bodden SS-Alexander FS-2(1)


I like it! Especially because your #1 is an O-lineman and NOT a quarterback.

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April 22nd, 2010 @ 7:44p.m. "The Detroit Lions select...Ndamukong Suh". Those are some beautiful words.


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December 22nd, 2008, 12:06 am
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faulkn22 wrote:
Alright guys, I'm throwing my two cents at what I would do to fix this mess if I were WCF (besides pull my own damn plug, lol).

At GM I would go for Pioli first, and if he's gone, Floyd Reese. Both proven winners, both proven drafters, and both haven't scoffed at the notion of coming to Detroit (Reese said he wants the job and could be in Detroit tomorrow, Pioli said he's interested and at least entertaining the thought).

At HC I would bring in McDaniels if Pioli comes in and Cowher if Reese comes in. If McDaniels comes, he'd be the OC as well. If Cowher comes, he'd be the DC. As far as who would be their opposites, I'm not 100% sure, but I do know that coaches that also control one side of the ball seem to have much better records than teams with no HC control.

For my O-scheme, I would bring in the Erhardt-Perkins (Smashmouth football formation, sets up play-action). I'd keep the Tampa because it works with the proper NT.

Before the draft, I would concentrate on bringing a couple of free agents in. I would bring in Cassel at QB and Haynesworth at NT. We have the cap room to make this happen, its just a question of whether they would even consider coming here.

With that being said, lets concentrate on where I would draft...

I would try to trade down whenever possible, because we need all kinds of position players, not just a few key pieces that are missing. I have us trading down to #5 overall with the Raiders. We'll get their second rounder and that will be it. This is fairly realistic. Also, I have Dallas at 21 now, down from 23, for now (that can go as low as 18th if the right situation occurs)

Draft '09 Round(Pick) - Position to Draft (Players by Choice if Available)
1(5) - OT (A. Smith, M. Oher, E. Monroe)
1(23) - LB (A. Curry, R. Maualuga, J. Laurinaitis, B. Cushing)
2(1) - S (T. Mays or K. Moore)
2(5) - CB (A. Smith, K. Lewis, K. Barnes)
3(1) - TE (T. Beckum, R. Purvis)
3(23) - OG (?)
5(1) - WR (J. Shipley) Convert to KR,PR
6(1) - ? (?)
6(23) - ? (?)
7(1) - QB (N. Davis, N. Brown, T. Boeckmann) The first two will almost certainly be gone at this point.

Starters in '09

C- Raiola OG-Backus, Mulitalo OT-1(5), Cherilus TE-Beckum QB-Cassel RB-Smith WR-Johnson, Furrey, Standeford

NT-Haynesworth UT-Redding DE-Avril, White LB-1(23), Sims, Dizon CB-2(5), Bodden SS-Alexander FS-2(1)


I think we may have to settle for Cushing at 23... At that spot I think I'd rather have a S than Cushing.

Who do you mean for your S? I know who T. Mays is, but there's W. Moore, and then there's D.J. Moore Cb, but I've never heard of K. Moore. I'm not doubting you or calling you out, I'm just looking for clarification.

That said, I think BOTH W. Moore and T. Mays might be gone by the 2nd round. I would prefer taking the S with the 23rd pick and someone like Dan Ellerbe in the 2nd round.

At some point, however, I know people are going to kick and scream, but we should strongly consider taking Alex Mack. He is a great value with the #1 pick in the 2nd round, and he starts becoming valuable around pick 23. He is the best OC in the draft, and he could come in and be an immediate starter and ADD physicality to the middle of our OL.

I would like to consider taking U of M's Terrancy Taylor if he's there in the 3rd round too. I really don't think that we need a TE as bad as we could use T. Taylor, and I really don't see us getting Haynesworth.


I guess if I had my way I would take LT first, S/DE 2nd, OC 3rd, and DT with our 3rd round pick.


December 22nd, 2008, 12:14 am
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[quote="wjb21ndtown"][quote="faulkn22"]
At some point, however, I know people are going to kick and scream, but we should strongly consider taking Alex Mack. He is a great value with the #1 pick in the 2nd round, and he starts becoming valuable around pick 23. He is the best OC in the draft, and he could come in and be an immediate starter and ADD physicality to the middle of our OL.
quote]

Im with you on the whole Mack thing. I would be very happy if we managed to get a franchise left tackle AND Mack.

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April 22nd, 2010 @ 7:44p.m. "The Detroit Lions select...Ndamukong Suh". Those are some beautiful words.


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December 22nd, 2008, 12:18 am
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I could see where picking up Mack would be beneficial. We would get an as good or better C than we have now, and we'd free up at least 3 million in cap room at the same time. Plus, Raiola is getting old. Also, that is definately William Moore out of Mizzou, not a K. Moore.


December 22nd, 2008, 7:36 am
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MAck would likely start out at OG. OG is more of a need and he can slide inside when Raiola is gone.

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December 22nd, 2008, 1:04 pm
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faulkn22 wrote:
I could see where picking up Mack would be beneficial. We would get an as good or better C than we have now, and we'd free up at least 3 million in cap room at the same time. Plus, Raiola is getting old. Also, that is definately William Moore out of Mizzou, not a K. Moore.


Hell Id say hes much better than what we have now.

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April 22nd, 2010 @ 7:44p.m. "The Detroit Lions select...Ndamukong Suh". Those are some beautiful words.


Lionbacker2 Fantasy Champion 2011


December 22nd, 2008, 2:43 pm
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Stallion wrote:
MAck would likely start out at OG. OG is more of a need and he can slide inside when Raiola is gone.


I agree with that 100%.

Best case scenario our OL is Andre Smith LT, Muilatelo LG, Dom OC, Alex Mack OG, and Cherilus RT.

And the following year moving Alex Mack to OC with a 1st - 3rd round draft pick picking up the OG spot that Mack vacates.

We can't have three rookies on our OL. IF we can trade for a vet LG I would be good with cutting or trading Raiola and putting Mack at OC, but we can't get a rookie LT, OC and RG in the same year.


December 22nd, 2008, 8:24 pm
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I like most of the ideas thrown around, but the fact is we need everything. No matter what we draft, were still gonna lack talent in several areas. But theres nothing we can do about it. This is the year where we need a strong start.

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April 22nd, 2010 @ 7:44p.m. "The Detroit Lions select...Ndamukong Suh". Those are some beautiful words.


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December 22nd, 2008, 11:10 pm
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all i want for the lions is

1a michael oher Ole Miss 6-5 318

1b Duke Robinson Oklahoma 6-5 335

2 best LB/DL

LETS GET SOME BEEF ON THE O-LINE!!!

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December 23rd, 2008, 5:04 am
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