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What are the chances of the Lions going after someone like Gross in Free agency? Or is he going to likely be franchised?


January 20th, 2009, 6:54 pm
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Quote:
The Lions desperately need help at the left tackle position before anything else. It's their greatest weakness, and all three e-mailers are right - if you don't have at least a solid left tackle, your offense is going to suck.


First off, this guy is way off. LT is NOT our worst position, though it is a need. And if you have Pro Bowlers at LG, C, RG, and RT, but a shaky LT, your offense is NOT going to suck. The worst LT in that list gave up less than one sack per game. Not enough to make offense suck, sorry.

Quote:
1. Ryan Clady, Denver, 0.5 sack
2. Michael Roos, Tennessee, 1 sack PRO BOWLER
3-T. Tony Ugoh, Indianapolis, 2 sacks* (Started 11)
3-T. Tra Thomas, Philadelphia, 2 sacks
3-T. Jared Gaither, Baltimore, 2 sacks* (He missed first quarter of Philadelphia game because of a shoulder injury)
7. Jake Long, Miami, 2.5 sacks
8-T. Marcus McNeill, San Diego, 3 sacks* (13 games)
8-T. Chris Samuels, Washington, 3 sacks* (Only appeared in 12 games)
8-T. Jordan Gross, Carolina, 3 sacks* (Missed 1 game) PRO BOWLER
8-T. Jammal Brown, New Orleans, 3 sacks* (Missed 1 game)
8-T. Todd Weiner, Atlanta, 3 sacks* (Started 10 games and appeared in 15)
13-T. Joe Thomas, Cleveland, 3.5 sacks PRO BOWLER
13-T. Walter Jones, Seattle, 3.5 sacks* (12 games) PRO BOWLER
15-T. D'Brickashaw Ferguson, NY Jets, 4 sacks
15-T. Bryant McKinnie, Minnesota, 4 sacks* (11 games)
15-T. Max Starks, Pittsburgh, 4 sacks* (10 starts)
18. Brandon Albert, Kansas City, 4.5 sacks* (Missed 1 game)
19. Levi Jones, Cincinnati, 5.5 sacks* (10 games)
20. Mike Gandy, Arizona, 6.25 sacks
21-T. Chad Clifton, Green Bay, 6.5 sacks* (missed 1 game)
21-T. David Diehl, NY Giants, 6.5 sacks
23. Flozell Adams, Dallas, 7.25 PRO BOWLER
24-T. Khalif Barnes, Jacksonville, 7.5 sacks
24-T. Matt Light, New England, 7.5 sacks
24-T. Kwame Harris, 7.5 sacks* (Started 11, appeared in 13)
27. Donald Penn, Tampa Bay, 8 sacks
28. Joe Staley, San Francisco, 8.5 sacks
29. Jeff Backus, Detroit, 9.25 sacks
30. John St. Clair, Chicago, 9.75 sacks
T-31. Duane Brown, Houston, 11.5 sacks
T-31. Jason Peters, Buffalo, 11.5 sacks* PRO BOWLER (13 games)


How many of these are coverage sacks? How many a result of QB holding onto the ball? How many would Ben Roethlisberger have avoided? How many times would Kurt Warner have passed the ball prior to being sacked? The list is flawed. Max Starks in Pittsburgh would EASILY have 2 or 3 times the sacks if Roethlisberger were an immobile QB.

Backus allowed 9.25 sacks in 16 games. That is .58 sacks per game. If we get the top tackle we'll be lucky to get to 3 sacks in 16 games. That is a reduction of only .39 sacks per game. That is a little more than one sack every 3 games.

Just how much difference do you think one sack per 3 games will make? Is one sack per 3 games worth 10 to 12 MILLION dollars? How many tackles will Aaron Curry make? How many tackles for loss? How many INTs? Forced fumbles? You see my point don't you? Aaron Curry has far greater potential influence on our team. I fear we are overvaluing the LT position and making Backus the scapegoat of all our offensive woes. He is still better than both guards.

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Of the 32 starting quarterbacks on NFL depth charts, only 18 are with their original team. The average draft position for a starting quarterback was 99 -- early in the fourth round


This is not relevant and completely deceptive. It makes it sound like the best place to draft QB is in round 4. The mean is less important than the mode. The mode would be round 1. The mean is unfairly skewed by the late round picks. The most starters are still from round 1.

Let's drop the QB talk for a second. If we take LT we get something like this:

LT- Smith LG- Mulitalo C- Raiola RG- Ramirez RT- Cherilus

We've now got 15+ million sunk at LT. (5 million dead) Plus that is 5 million we can't spend on a FA. 5 million is enough to pick up a quality NFL guard.
So I propose this:

LT- Backus LG- #33 pick (Robinson/Johnson) C- Raiola RG- Quality FA. RT- Cherilus

This scenario also brings a guy like Aaron Curry to Detroit. Overall, our team will be far better off.

-ILMP


January 21st, 2009, 12:59 am
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InterimLionsMasterPimp wrote:
Quote:
The Lions desperately need help at the left tackle position before anything else. It's their greatest weakness, and all three e-mailers are right - if you don't have at least a solid left tackle, your offense is going to suck.


First off, this guy is way off. LT is NOT our worst position, though it is a need. And if you have Pro Bowlers at LG, C, RG, and RT, but a shaky LT, your offense is NOT going to suck. The worst LT in that list gave up less than one sack per game. Not enough to make offense suck, sorry.

Quote:
1. Ryan Clady, Denver, 0.5 sack
2. Michael Roos, Tennessee, 1 sack PRO BOWLER
3-T. Tony Ugoh, Indianapolis, 2 sacks* (Started 11)
3-T. Tra Thomas, Philadelphia, 2 sacks
3-T. Jared Gaither, Baltimore, 2 sacks* (He missed first quarter of Philadelphia game because of a shoulder injury)
7. Jake Long, Miami, 2.5 sacks
8-T. Marcus McNeill, San Diego, 3 sacks* (13 games)
8-T. Chris Samuels, Washington, 3 sacks* (Only appeared in 12 games)
8-T. Jordan Gross, Carolina, 3 sacks* (Missed 1 game) PRO BOWLER
8-T. Jammal Brown, New Orleans, 3 sacks* (Missed 1 game)
8-T. Todd Weiner, Atlanta, 3 sacks* (Started 10 games and appeared in 15)
13-T. Joe Thomas, Cleveland, 3.5 sacks PRO BOWLER
13-T. Walter Jones, Seattle, 3.5 sacks* (12 games) PRO BOWLER
15-T. D'Brickashaw Ferguson, NY Jets, 4 sacks
15-T. Bryant McKinnie, Minnesota, 4 sacks* (11 games)
15-T. Max Starks, Pittsburgh, 4 sacks* (10 starts)
18. Brandon Albert, Kansas City, 4.5 sacks* (Missed 1 game)
19. Levi Jones, Cincinnati, 5.5 sacks* (10 games)
20. Mike Gandy, Arizona, 6.25 sacks
21-T. Chad Clifton, Green Bay, 6.5 sacks* (missed 1 game)
21-T. David Diehl, NY Giants, 6.5 sacks
23. Flozell Adams, Dallas, 7.25 PRO BOWLER
24-T. Khalif Barnes, Jacksonville, 7.5 sacks
24-T. Matt Light, New England, 7.5 sacks
24-T. Kwame Harris, 7.5 sacks* (Started 11, appeared in 13)
27. Donald Penn, Tampa Bay, 8 sacks
28. Joe Staley, San Francisco, 8.5 sacks
29. Jeff Backus, Detroit, 9.25 sacks
30. John St. Clair, Chicago, 9.75 sacks
T-31. Duane Brown, Houston, 11.5 sacks
T-31. Jason Peters, Buffalo, 11.5 sacks* PRO BOWLER (13 games)


How many of these are coverage sacks? How many a result of QB holding onto the ball? How many would Ben Roethlisberger have avoided? How many times would Kurt Warner have passed the ball prior to being sacked? The list is flawed. Max Starks in Pittsburgh would EASILY have 2 or 3 times the sacks if Roethlisberger were an immobile QB.

Backus allowed 9.25 sacks in 16 games. That is .58 sacks per game. If we get the top tackle we'll be lucky to get to 3 sacks in 16 games. That is a reduction of only .39 sacks per game. That is a little more than one sack every 3 games.

Just how much difference do you think one sack per 3 games will make? Is one sack per 3 games worth 10 to 12 MILLION dollars? How many tackles will Aaron Curry make? How many tackles for loss? How many INTs? Forced fumbles? You see my point don't you? Aaron Curry has far greater potential influence on our team. I fear we are overvaluing the LT position and making Backus the scapegoat of all our offensive woes. He is still better than both guards.

Quote:
Of the 32 starting quarterbacks on NFL depth charts, only 18 are with their original team. The average draft position for a starting quarterback was 99 -- early in the fourth round


This is not relevant and completely deceptive. It makes it sound like the best place to draft QB is in round 4. The mean is less important than the mode. The mode would be round 1. The mean is unfairly skewed by the late round picks. The most starters are still from round 1.

Let's drop the QB talk for a second. If we take LT we get something like this:

LT- Smith LG- Mulitalo C- Raiola RG- Ramirez RT- Cherilus

We've now got 15+ million sunk at LT. (5 million dead) Plus that is 5 million we can't spend on a FA. 5 million is enough to pick up a quality NFL guard.
So I propose this:

LT- Backus LG- #33 pick (Robinson/Johnson) C- Raiola RG- Quality FA. RT- Cherilus

This scenario also brings a guy like Aaron Curry to Detroit. Overall, our team will be far better off.

-ILMP


How simplistic are you? The sack totals that you see represents the time the pass rusher he guarded actually got to the Lions QB. Whats left unsaid is the times he was beat and the QB had to make a rushed throw, the times he was beat and the QB runs into a defender from a different direction, the bad run blocking and penalties. If LT or C isnt the worst positions on the team, then what the hell is? Jeff Backus is pretty much finished, not only as an NFL starter, but as an NFL player. I am praying that Jim Schwartz realizes that. He saw firsthand Thanksgiving. Jeff Backus counts 7.5 million against the salary cap next season. He would be the very first cut I make. The QB data you stated are skewed by nothing. It is legitimate data that represents the undrafted QBs in the NFL. That are having success at that (Warner,Romo,Delhomme,Garcia,Hill). There arent the late round or undrafted finds at LT there are at QB. You can take the data for what you please but does not make it any less legitimate. The two lines have to be strengths of the Detroit Lions if we want to realize Jim Schwartz's vision of being built for December football. Having Jeff Backus and Dominic Raiola start makes the vision of having a tough,physical team impossible. Draft Andre Smith. What you cant purchase with the cap space you mentioned is dominant youth. They dont become free agents. Andre Smith is 11 years younger than Backus, better today than Jeff at his absolute best, tougher whose cap number wont be a helluva lot more anyway.


January 21st, 2009, 2:48 am
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Quote:
How many of these are coverage sacks? How many a result of QB holding onto the ball? How many would Ben Roethlisberger have avoided? How many times would Kurt Warner have passed the ball prior to being sacked? The list is flawed. Max Starks in Pittsburgh would EASILY have 2 or 3 times the sacks if Roethlisberger were an immobile QB.

Backus allowed 9.25 sacks in 16 games. That is .58 sacks per game. If we get the top tackle we'll be lucky to get to 3 sacks in 16 games. That is a reduction of only .39 sacks per game. That is a little more than one sack every 3 games.

Just how much difference do you think one sack per 3 games will make? Is one sack per 3 games worth 10 to 12 MILLION dollars? How many tackles will Aaron Curry make? How many tackles for loss? How many INTs? Forced fumbles? You see my point don't you? Aaron Curry has far greater potential influence on our team. I fear we are overvaluing the LT position and making Backus the scapegoat of all our offensive woes. He is still better than both guards.


Sorry this argument is way too convenient. Trying to determine a left tackles importance by merely using sacks allowed is really oversimplifying things. What about run blocking which takes up half of the offensive game? And then something that isn't statistically recorded: hurries? In the passing game, a better indicator is how long does the pocket give the quarterback time to pass before it collapses? It's pretty clear that our quarterbacks are probably the worst protected. What about adding to the chemistry of the line, which you can not quantify?

And this extrapolating sacks over a game can be used to minimize the importance of a defensive end as well. Or a linebacker for that matter. You say the list is flawed, but you proceed to use the same list to support your own argument.

I'm not on the 'left tackle or bust' bandwagon by any means, but this is a poor argument that unfairly minimizes the importance of a left tackle. There's a reason why Left Tackle is one of the most highly paid positions in the NFL.

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January 21st, 2009, 2:53 am
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Pickings look slim for this year’s crop of quarterbacks

MOBILE, Ala. | Scott Pioli earned a reputation while with the Patriots as being able to mine a talented quarterback from the depths of the draft. The Chiefs general manager might need that ability if his new team is to find its future starting quarterback this year.

That, plus a lot of luck. Plenty of questions surround the top available quarterbacks, Matt Stafford of Georgia and Mark Sanchez of USC. Depth of this season’s class is also lacking in what could be the worst crop of quarterbacks to come along in years.

“It’s a terrible group outside of those top two guys and even they aren’t sure things,” ESPN draft analyst Mel Kiper said. “The senior group is awful.”

Stafford and Sanchez declared for the draft with college eligibility remaining, so they weren’t candidates to play in the Senior Bowl. The participating quarterbacks include lower-round prospects like Texas Tech’s Graham Harrell, Sam Houston State’s Rhett Bomar and Clemson’s Cullen Harper.

Bomar, once the starter at Oklahoma before transferring, helped himself with a couple of strong practices this week.

The Chiefs’ chances of finally getting their franchise quarterback were set back when Sam Bradford, the Heisman Trophy winner, announced last week he would return to Oklahoma for his junior season.

“This quarterback draft would look so much better if Bradford had come out,” said Matt Miller, who runs a draft Web site at www.newerascouting.com. “There are some people who think he’s too small or that he’s been too protected by that all-world offensive line they have at Oklahoma. So there is some argument there with him. But it’s hard to argue what he’s done. He’s a winner and that’s ultimately what everybody is looking for in a quarterback.

“He would have been the No. 1 overall pick if he had come out.”

Instead, Bradford goes into a deep quarterback pool that next year will include Texas’ Colt McCoy and Florida’s Tim Tebow.

“You hate to tell people to wait for next year but that draft is going to be loaded at quarterback,” Miller said. “That’s going to be one interesting quarterback draft.”

The Chiefs and other teams are left to sift through this year’s prospects. Stafford and Sanchez have ability but don’t seem to excite scouts as Bradford would have and Atlanta’s Matt Ryan did last year.

“Neither of these guys are as good as Bradford or McCoy,” said the personnel director for one NFL team. “Neither of these guys are as good as Matt Ryan.”

Stafford was an inconsistent player in college. He has the edge at this early point in draft preparations over Sanchez, but the Chiefs might not get a shot at him.

Detroit, coming off the NFL’s first 0-16 season, could take Stafford with the first pick. St. Louis picks second and probably won’t be looking for a quarterback.

If not, the Chiefs would have a decision regarding Sanchez.

“The Chiefs will have to at least look closely at Sanchez with that third pick if they’ve decided they won’t stick with Tyler Thigpen,” Kiper said. “Sanchez only (started) for one year but he’s got the size and throws accurately on the move. He’s a real smart kid, a quick learner.”

Other early draft entrants include Josh Freeman of Grandview and Kansas State and Nate Davis of Ball State. Freeman in particular has the size and arm strength to climb on draft charts if he shows well at next month’s scouting combine and his subsequent workouts.


January 21st, 2009, 12:53 pm
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Great article!!! Wait till next year, we can get our QB then!

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January 21st, 2009, 1:50 pm
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steensn wrote:
Great article!!! Wait till next year, we can get our QB then!


That's what I am saying!

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January 21st, 2009, 2:54 pm
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steensn wrote:
Great article!!! Wait till next year, we can get our QB then!


But but...we may win too many games next year to get a franchise passer!


January 21st, 2009, 4:55 pm
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dh86 wrote:
steensn wrote:
Great article!!! Wait till next year, we can get our QB then!


But but...we may win too many games next year to get a franchise passer!


I'd be ok with too many wins for a high draft pick...Wouldn't mind it a bit.

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January 21st, 2009, 5:46 pm
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dh86 wrote:
steensn wrote:
Great article!!! Wait till next year, we can get our QB then!


But but...we may win too many games next year to get a franchise passer!


HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA

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January 21st, 2009, 5:47 pm
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InterimLions MasterPimp has a good post about backus

Finally someone has opened their EYES and looked at the whole Picture.I have been saying all year it is our Guards that make our line bad. Backus is the definition of Solid.

Once again the math that many are trying to use looks like this
Alot of sacks = Bad LT = Draft one at #1

This is rarely the case. There are many variables in football and it takes a well trained eye to understand whats actually goin on in the game.


January 21st, 2009, 9:14 pm
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FootballWiz wrote:
InterimLions MasterPimp has a good post about backus

Finally someone has opened their EYES and looked at the whole Picture.I have been saying all year it is our Guards that make our line bad. Backus is the definition of Solid.

Once again the math that many are trying to use looks like this
Alot of sacks = Bad LT = Draft one at #1

This is rarely the case. There are many variables in football and it takes a well trained eye to understand whats actually goin on in the game.


Backus = a lot of sacks + a lot of tackles for losses + a lot of hurrying the QB + sucking + draft one #1

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January 21st, 2009, 9:17 pm
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FootballWiz wrote:
InterimLions MasterPimp has a good post about backus

Finally someone has opened their EYES and looked at the whole Picture.I have been saying all year it is our Guards that make our line bad. Backus is the definition of Solid.

Once again the math that many are trying to use looks like this
Alot of sacks = Bad LT = Draft one at #1

This is rarely the case. There are many variables in football and it takes a well trained eye to understand whats actually goin on in the game.


ILMP has a point that Backus is not the Only Problem. BUt put it in Perspective. You just used the word SOLID to Describe 1 of the worst 3 LT in the league. So now the 29th ranked guy out of 32 is solid? Man that means the WORST DEFENSE EVER from last season is only a few slots(read: plays) from being Solid.

That is Not correct. Backus is NOT an Average LT. He is 1 of the worst 3 Currently Starting in the NFL. As long as a Bottom 3 LT is Covering our QBs Blind Side.... we will have a Bottom dwelling team.

Sacks, Tackles for Loss, QB Knockdowns, Hurried Throws (Leading to Interceptions) are all Factors ignored by the "Sacks" List.

We need 2 Guards AND an LT. I can handle waiting 1 more year for a Center.

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January 21st, 2009, 9:59 pm
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LOL at the responses. Perhaps I am a bit guilty of skewing the facts myself. There are multiple ways to view those numbers though.

I firmly believe we are giving Backus too much credit in our failure. A whole lot of teams are giving up 6+ sacks from that position. You could argue that many of them are equally as bad. I also believe in the top defensive player at #1 and #33 for guard, as well as one other guard acquisition. This gives us a defensive playmaker and addresses the line as well.

Sure Backus gets beat, and the QB steps up in the 'pocket'. But there is no pocket to speak of because our guards aren't good enough to hold up against a bull rush. The pocket shrinks and closes in on the QB. If the guards held, we'd take less sacks as well. Right DEs in this league get pressure. Our QB rarely has any room to move around in the 'pocket' and that part has nothing to do with Backus.

-ILMP

Quote:
We need 2 Guards AND an LT.


True, but there are only so many picks. Our defense needs something too.

-ILMP


January 21st, 2009, 10:24 pm
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Well in my delusional mind I have this innane hope that Ramirez will continue to get better and step into a starters role. That might solve 1 G spot. Its probably no more wishful thinking that to expect that you will get 2 rookie OG to step in and start right away and be effective.

A good deal of this depends on who is in fact the best player. If its Oher, then the smart move is to pick him. If its Stafford, then he should be the choice. The Lions need almost everything, so they can have options at #1. That #20 pick gives them the flexibility to wait on the LB or any other position.

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January 22nd, 2009, 12:05 am
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