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Millen Draft Pick - Epic Bust

Joined: December 27th, 2006, 4:53 pm
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wjb21ndtown wrote:
Given the number of picks we have in the first 3 rounds, I wouldn't mind taking a flyer on Gram Harrel or Hunter Cantwell if they're available in the 4th round. I'd take either of those guys over Stanton in a heartbeat! Orlovsky, Culpepp or Kitna, and rookie is ok with me, AS LONG AS WE IMPROVE THE TEAM AROUND THEM.

That said, I do think it is important to help out our OL THIS DRAFT. The draft defense first people, IMO, are short-sighted. Our offense is only a couple of positions away from being complete, our defense is AT LEAST FIVE. We can't fix our D this year no matter what we do. We could draft ALL defense and still have holes. I'd like to grab either a starting LB or a starting caliber SS/FS in the first two rounds and spend the majority of the picks we have in the first three rounds on offense. Get an OT and either a OC or a OG in Rds 1 and 2, pick up a LB or SS with the other first round pick, and go BPA from there on out.

If we do that we should have a MUCH improved offense and a better defense. And remember, our defense won't be as bad off because 1) we'll be able to score more points, and 2) if we upgrade our OL we'll be able to move the ball on the grond more, control the clock, and keep the D off of the field.


What happens in the draft also depends on who we can sign in February. Lions gotta replace half the defensive starters, the Lions have the cap room to bring in a top rate defensive player in their prime like Peppers,Nnamdi,Haynesworth or Suggs. If the Lions got one of those players, it is one less hole to fill in the draft and makes it easier to plug holes.


December 19th, 2008, 6:21 pm
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dh86 wrote:
What happens in the draft also depends on who we can sign in February. Lions gotta replace half the defensive starters, the Lions have the cap room to bring in a top rate defensive player in their prime like Peppers,Nnamdi,Haynesworth or Suggs. If the Lions got one of those players, it is one less hole to fill in the draft and makes it easier to plug holes.


Unless we get a STELLAR GM and HC assume we're not going to sign ANY quality free agents, because that's what's going to happen...


December 19th, 2008, 7:01 pm
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One big problem I've noticed is a lot of people whether they really feel that way or not are coming off like this can be turned around in a year. Well guess what that's what Millen tried to do every year he was the GM. This has to be looked at as a five year project with significant improvement (playoffs) in year three. If they get there sooner that's great but to expect it is ridiculous. Yes teams have done it in the past and even this year Miami and Atlanta. But for the most part all those teams already had a core group of players that were much better than what Detroit is working with. Also it's not unlikely that those quick turn around teams go back to losing just as quickly the next season, just ask the Jets.

Go the way of the Steelers and continue to have a strong core year after year and plug a couple of holes. It's the teams that try to make major repairs to five, six, seven positions each year that have a hard time maintaining any consistantcy. As far as the Texans and Carr go they did take care of the LT position with their first move. They grabbed Boselli one of the elite LTs of the time unfortunately though he never recovered from his shoulder injuries. You can't compare failures or successes in the draft and say this is the way to do it because there are numerous examples for every side of an argument.

I also don't want to hear about letting Rogers go and especially Bly. What has Bly done since leaving Detroit? He is consistantly burnt by WRs and since he had to be the #1 CB Denver's pass defense has been one of the worst in the league. Anyways the Steelers let their best players walk on a regular basis and they have no problem gettign replacements at much better value while maintaining a high level of success. Let the new GM run the show and hopefully do a god job of talent evaluation.

I'm hoping to move out of the #1 spot but that will be a tough cookie to crack. If not looking at the potential top 10 picks as of right now I'd have to Stafford if he declares. Keep in mind I'm all about replacing Backus and the defensive side is my favorite side of football to watch. There is unbelieveable depth across the O-line in this draft especially if a bunch of underclassmen declare. Curry is high on my wish list but as mentioned in the other thread a LB can't be paid #1 money. Look at what guys like DJ Williams, Keith Bullock, Lofa Tatupu, and Ray Lewis have signed recently. Those contracts would be dwarfed compared to what an unproven rookie LB would be getting as the #1 pick. Willis last year only signed a $16.7 million contract as the #11 pick. The only defensive player this year as of right now that I'd eventhink of taking at #1 would be Jenkins from OSU. He's not flashy or overly exciting in any one area but he's solid across the board and has the OSU pedigree on his side at the CB position. Also if he ends up not cutting it at the CB position they can slide him over to FS in a year or two.

So right now before I sit down and really start breaking these guys down I'd have to go Stafford, Jenkins, then Curry. I also like Maualuga but he doesn't offer the versatility of Curry unless of course he was able to put his hand in the dirt and play DE. O-line is just too deep to go #1 and Smith has a smell of McDougle and Mike Williams (Buffalo). The DEs don't wow me at the #1 spot with Orakpo having knee issues and Johnson not showing much outside of being a tall lanky one trick pony speed rusher. I also see Johnson taking a drop on boards unless he just blows them away at the combine. I still can't believe I'm saying it but at #1 for the cash I'd have to take the big arm QB that isn't scared to step up in the pocket. I don't think he will ever be Manning, Marino, or Elway but give him talent and I think he can put up Aikman stats.


December 19th, 2008, 7:39 pm
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sweetd20 wrote:
One big problem I've noticed is a lot of people whether they really feel that way or not are coming off like this can be turned around in a year. Well guess what that's what Millen tried to do every year he was the GM. This has to be looked at as a five year project with significant improvement (playoffs) in year three. If they get there sooner that's great but to expect it is ridiculous. Yes teams have done it in the past and even this year Miami and Atlanta. But for the most part all those teams already had a core group of players that were much better than what Detroit is working with. Also it's not unlikely that those quick turn around teams go back to losing just as quickly the next season, just ask the Jets.

Go the way of the Steelers and continue to have a strong core year after year and plug a couple of holes. It's the teams that try to make major repairs to five, six, seven positions each year that have a hard time maintaining any consistantcy. As far as the Texans and Carr go they did take care of the LT position with their first move. They grabbed Boselli one of the elite LTs of the time unfortunately though he never recovered from his shoulder injuries. You can't compare failures or successes in the draft and say this is the way to do it because there are numerous examples for every side of an argument.

I also don't want to hear about letting Rogers go and especially Bly. What has Bly done since leaving Detroit? He is consistantly burnt by WRs and since he had to be the #1 CB Denver's pass defense has been one of the worst in the league. Anyways the Steelers let their best players walk on a regular basis and they have no problem gettign replacements at much better value while maintaining a high level of success. Let the new GM run the show and hopefully do a god job of talent evaluation.

I'm hoping to move out of the #1 spot but that will be a tough cookie to crack. If not looking at the potential top 10 picks as of right now I'd have to Stafford if he declares. Keep in mind I'm all about replacing Backus and the defensive side is my favorite side of football to watch. There is unbelieveable depth across the O-line in this draft especially if a bunch of underclassmen declare. Curry is high on my wish list but as mentioned in the other thread a LB can't be paid #1 money. Look at what guys like DJ Williams, Keith Bullock, Lofa Tatupu, and Ray Lewis have signed recently. Those contracts would be dwarfed compared to what an unproven rookie LB would be getting as the #1 pick. Willis last year only signed a $16.7 million contract as the #11 pick. The only defensive player this year as of right now that I'd eventhink of taking at #1 would be Jenkins from OSU. He's not flashy or overly exciting in any one area but he's solid across the board and has the OSU pedigree on his side at the CB position. Also if he ends up not cutting it at the CB position they can slide him over to FS in a year or two.

So right now before I sit down and really start breaking these guys down I'd have to go Stafford, Jenkins, then Curry. I also like Maualuga but he doesn't offer the versatility of Curry unless of course he was able to put his hand in the dirt and play DE. O-line is just too deep to go #1 and Smith has a smell of McDougle and Mike Williams (Buffalo). The DEs don't wow me at the #1 spot with Orakpo having knee issues and Johnson not showing much outside of being a tall lanky one trick pony speed rusher. I also see Johnson taking a drop on boards unless he just blows them away at the combine. I still can't believe I'm saying it but at #1 for the cash I'd have to take the big arm QB that isn't scared to step up in the pocket. I don't think he will ever be Manning, Marino, or Elway but give him talent and I think he can put up Aikman stats.


Sweet, I agree with you... GO THE DIRECTION OF PITT....

But, IMO, that kind of puts your QB pick to bed... Pitt fixed their ENTIRE TEAM before drafting Big Ben.

If I had my way we'd either trade down and take Oher at #3 -5, or trade down to 8ish and take Curry or Malaluga.

2nd 1st round pick, I'd like to look at William Moore if it is around 17ish or Alex Mack if it's more in the mid 20's.


December 19th, 2008, 8:43 pm
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wjb21ndtown wrote:
Stallion wrote:
hamma77 wrote:
Stafford would be a great pick, then next year we can have this same exact talk on who to take first overall! :lol:


We are not one player away from winning games. We need the guy who will be the best for the team in the long run becuase we are not going to turn this around in a year. Stafford is a franchise QB and could lead this team to the promise land one day. S if you want to the lions to draft a LT so we maybe win one extra game thats fine. I want our team to draft a QB who can atleast allow us to think about making a SB run in a couple years.


You're kidding right?

Take an LT and "maybe" win one extra game? The Dolphins turned their franchise around by signing Porter and drafting Jake Long. The Browns looked MUCH IMPROVED after drafting Joe Thomas, so much so that people on here were crying about drafting CJ.

Taking an LT doesn't just help you "maybe win" one more game(s). It makes your entire team better and gives your Qb a chance to succeed. We have yet to see what Dan O has to offer, or even Stanton for that matter, because our OL sucks. You want to replace a piece of a puzzle that you haven't even seen yet...

The offensive line as a whole needs to be replaced.

The browns went out and got Shaffer to play RT, Steinbach to play LG, Bently to play OC (didnt turn out to they got Fraley) So it wasn't Just Joe Thomas. Sure the Dolphins drafted Jake Long. They year prior they also drafted Satele the year before, moved Carey to RT, and signed Justin Smiley.

We need to replace everyone on our line other then Goz and I doubt we do that even if we draft a LT with our first or the cowboys first. Rebuilding that line is more then a year project we might aswell let a QB learn on the bench like they should while the OL is put together.

Dan-O is being overrated by fans. He has put up decent numbers but every yard closer to the endzone he gets the worse he plays.

I doubt we will ever be like Pitt. It would take a couple years and thats if we hit on allot of draft picks.

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December 19th, 2008, 9:31 pm
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Millen Draft Pick - Epic Bust

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Stallion wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
Stallion wrote:
hamma77 wrote:
Stafford would be a great pick, then next year we can have this same exact talk on who to take first overall! :lol:


We are not one player away from winning games. We need the guy who will be the best for the team in the long run becuase we are not going to turn this around in a year. Stafford is a franchise QB and could lead this team to the promise land one day. S if you want to the lions to draft a LT so we maybe win one extra game thats fine. I want our team to draft a QB who can atleast allow us to think about making a SB run in a couple years.


You're kidding right?

Take an LT and "maybe" win one extra game? The Dolphins turned their franchise around by signing Porter and drafting Jake Long. The Browns looked MUCH IMPROVED after drafting Joe Thomas, so much so that people on here were crying about drafting CJ.

Taking an LT doesn't just help you "maybe win" one more game(s). It makes your entire team better and gives your Qb a chance to succeed. We have yet to see what Dan O has to offer, or even Stanton for that matter, because our OL sucks. You want to replace a piece of a puzzle that you haven't even seen yet...

The offensive line as a whole needs to be replaced.

The browns went out and got Shaffer to play RT, Steinbach to play LG, Bently to play OC (didnt turn out to they got Fraley) So it wasn't Just Joe Thomas. Sure the Dolphins drafted Jake Long. They year prior they also drafted Satele the year before, moved Carey to RT, and signed Justin Smiley.

We need to replace everyone on our line other then Goz and I doubt we do that even if we draft a LT with our first or the cowboys first. Rebuilding that line is more then a year project we might aswell let a QB learn on the bench like they should while the OL is put together.

Dan-O is being overrated by fans. He has put up decent numbers but every yard closer to the endzone he gets the worse he plays.

I doubt we will ever be like Pitt. It would take a couple years and thats if we hit on allot of draft picks.


Justin Smiley haven't played a game for the Dolphins. Their left guard was a Saints reject who spent his entire career on the inactive list and right guard is an undrafted free agent. Now, every team cannot be the Jets and allocate a large sum of money to every offensive line position. Offensive line, more than any other position, requires scouting ability. With Millen as GM, its no surprise that we haven't had a top 10 line since 2000. Left Tackle is a premium position that has to be found at the top of the draft. Why use a high draft pick on a QB in 2009 when that pick could be used for a player that can help us compete in 09? This isnt the NBA, tanking the season next year to have capspace for a superstar or for lottery ping pong balls to fall our way to get one doesnt apply here. Draft a QB when they are in position to immediately make an impact.


December 19th, 2008, 10:11 pm
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Stallion wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
Stallion wrote:
hamma77 wrote:
Stafford would be a great pick, then next year we can have this same exact talk on who to take first overall! :lol:


We are not one player away from winning games. We need the guy who will be the best for the team in the long run becuase we are not going to turn this around in a year. Stafford is a franchise QB and could lead this team to the promise land one day. S if you want to the lions to draft a LT so we maybe win one extra game thats fine. I want our team to draft a QB who can atleast allow us to think about making a SB run in a couple years.


You're kidding right?

Take an LT and "maybe" win one extra game? The Dolphins turned their franchise around by signing Porter and drafting Jake Long. The Browns looked MUCH IMPROVED after drafting Joe Thomas, so much so that people on here were crying about drafting CJ.

Taking an LT doesn't just help you "maybe win" one more game(s). It makes your entire team better and gives your Qb a chance to succeed. We have yet to see what Dan O has to offer, or even Stanton for that matter, because our OL sucks. You want to replace a piece of a puzzle that you haven't even seen yet...

The offensive line as a whole needs to be replaced.

The browns went out and got Shaffer to play RT, Steinbach to play LG, Bently to play OC (didnt turn out to they got Fraley) So it wasn't Just Joe Thomas. Sure the Dolphins drafted Jake Long. They year prior they also drafted Satele the year before, moved Carey to RT, and signed Justin Smiley.

We need to replace everyone on our line other then Goz and I doubt we do that even if we draft a LT with our first or the cowboys first. Rebuilding that line is more then a year project we might aswell let a QB learn on the bench like they should while the OL is put together.

Dan-O is being overrated by fans. He has put up decent numbers but every yard closer to the endzone he gets the worse he plays.

I doubt we will ever be like Pitt. It would take a couple years and thats if we hit on allot of draft picks.


Stallion, the fact that it took multiple years and multiple players to turn the respective lines around doesn't mean that we shouldn't start this year. I personally don't see a LT other than Oher or Smith that I would want starting for us.

Further, why draft a Qb #1 overall when these guys could be busts? I don't mind drafting a Qb and sitting him, but I would prefer someone like Hunter Cantwel or Graham Harrel in the 3rd or 4th round. There isn't anything that I've seen out of Bradford or Stafford that I haven't seen out of Hunter Cantwel. Further Graham Harrel looks to be a Trent Edwards type of Qb. Why grab a Qb #1 overall when we can get one of these guys later in the draft? Unlike Qb LT is more of a position of physical skill then mental ability, we could draft a project LT like Jason Smith, Andrew Hartline, or maybe Alex Boone (who's probably better suited to play RT), but that doesn't make much sense. QB as a position is better suited for sitting and learning, and we can get a physically gifted Qb later in the draft that can sit and learn just as well as Stafford or Bradford.


December 19th, 2008, 10:14 pm
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wjb21ndtown wrote:
Stallion wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
Stallion wrote:
hamma77 wrote:
Stafford would be a great pick, then next year we can have this same exact talk on who to take first overall! :lol:


We are not one player away from winning games. We need the guy who will be the best for the team in the long run becuase we are not going to turn this around in a year. Stafford is a franchise QB and could lead this team to the promise land one day. S if you want to the lions to draft a LT so we maybe win one extra game thats fine. I want our team to draft a QB who can atleast allow us to think about making a SB run in a couple years.


You're kidding right?

Take an LT and "maybe" win one extra game? The Dolphins turned their franchise around by signing Porter and drafting Jake Long. The Browns looked MUCH IMPROVED after drafting Joe Thomas, so much so that people on here were crying about drafting CJ.

Taking an LT doesn't just help you "maybe win" one more game(s). It makes your entire team better and gives your Qb a chance to succeed. We have yet to see what Dan O has to offer, or even Stanton for that matter, because our OL sucks. You want to replace a piece of a puzzle that you haven't even seen yet...

The offensive line as a whole needs to be replaced.

The browns went out and got Shaffer to play RT, Steinbach to play LG, Bently to play OC (didnt turn out to they got Fraley) So it wasn't Just Joe Thomas. Sure the Dolphins drafted Jake Long. They year prior they also drafted Satele the year before, moved Carey to RT, and signed Justin Smiley.

We need to replace everyone on our line other then Goz and I doubt we do that even if we draft a LT with our first or the cowboys first. Rebuilding that line is more then a year project we might aswell let a QB learn on the bench like they should while the OL is put together.

Dan-O is being overrated by fans. He has put up decent numbers but every yard closer to the endzone he gets the worse he plays.

I doubt we will ever be like Pitt. It would take a couple years and thats if we hit on allot of draft picks.


Stallion, the fact that it took multiple years and multiple players to turn the respective lines around doesn't mean that we shouldn't start this year. I personally don't see a LT other than Oher or Smith that I would want starting for us.

Further, why draft a Qb #1 overall when these guys could be busts? I don't mind drafting a Qb and sitting him, but I would prefer someone like Hunter Cantwel or Graham Harrel in the 3rd or 4th round. There isn't anything that I've seen out of Bradford or Stafford that I haven't seen out of Hunter Cantwel. Further Graham Harrel looks to be a Trent Edwards type of Qb. Why grab a Qb #1 overall when we can get one of these guys later in the draft? Unlike Qb LT is more of a position of physical skill then mental ability, we could draft a project LT like Jason Smith, Andrew Hartline, or maybe Alex Boone (who's probably better suited to play RT), but that doesn't make much sense. QB as a position is better suited for sitting and learning, and we can get a physically gifted Qb later in the draft that can sit and learn just as well as Stafford or Bradford.


Oher's stock is dropping rapidly for some reason so to say he is bust safe a crazy. Andre Smith is short and has short arms, he lundges in the run game and could likely have problems with speed rushers. He is best suited to play OG and you don't sepnd a #1 overall on a guard. Personally I like Justin Smith and would happily take him with our second 1st rounder.
Also Cantwell has horrible throwing motion much like leftwhich. Harrel is just a system QB.

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December 20th, 2008, 11:35 am
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dh86 wrote:
Their left guard was a Saints reject who spent his entire career on the inactive list and right guard is an undrafted free agent. Now, every team cannot be the Jets and allocate a large sum of money to every offensive line position. Offensive line, more than any other position, requires scouting ability. With Millen as GM, its no surprise that we haven't had a top 10 line since 2000. Left Tackle is a premium position that has to be found at the top of the draft. Why use a high draft pick on a QB in 2009 when that pick could be used for a player that can help us compete in 09? This isnt the NBA, tanking the season next year to have capspace for a superstar or for lottery ping pong balls to fall our way to get one doesnt apply here. Draft a QB when they are in position to immediately make an impact.
A team could have 21 good players and a average to below average QB and have a hard time making it to the super bowl. A team can have a great QB and 15 or so good players and make it all the way. Great QBs dont come along every day and you have to take your shot when you get a chance.

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December 20th, 2008, 11:47 am
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Stallion wrote:
Oher's stock is dropping rapidly for some reason so to say he is bust safe a crazy. Andre Smith is short and has short arms, he lundges in the run game and could likely have problems with speed rushers. He is best suited to play OG and you don't sepnd a #1 overall on a guard. Personally I like Justin Smith and would happily take him with our second 1st rounder.
Also Cantwell has horrible throwing motion much like leftwhich. Harrel is just a system QB.



From what I understand Oher's stock is only falling because these over-hyped Qbs and Andre Smith are rising, for no apparent reason. You can complain about Cantwell's "hitch" if you want to, but Stafford and Stanford do not have great throwing motions either. One of them, I forget which one, has a motion very similar to Hunter Cantwell's!


Who is Justin Smith? I'm not being a smartass, there's just more than one Smith at OT, and I wanted to make sure we were on the same page...

I like Jason Smith (Baylor), if that's who you meant, I like him as well, but I don't think that he would be as good as Oher. The difference I see THIS COMING YEAR is that the fall-off between Oher and Smith is much greater than the fall-off between Stafford/Stanford and Cantwell. Besides, we're talking about SITTING the Qb for 2-3 years anyhow... I'd rather sit Cantwell or Harrel after taking them in the 4th round than sitting Staff or Stan after taking them #1 overall. You're talking about sitting $30million dollars, I'm talking about sitting THREE million dollars, and that's being generous! If we can't get a "hitch" out of a throwing motion in 3 years, then we better not draft a Qb because we sure as hell don't know how to coach one...


You can say that Harrel is a systems Qb, and you're right, but that doesn't mean he's bad. Payton Manning is a systems Qb too, so is Tom Brady and Matt Cassel. A good system makes a Qb great. Harrel understands offenses, and he's more than happy to play within himself and within his system. He makes good decisions, and he's not some loose cannon that goes out and loses you a game. I'd LOVE that out of a rookie. It usually takes 3-5 years MINIMUM for a Qb to learn that! Like I said, he reminds me a lot of Trent Edwards.


Also, I think you're discounting what it means to give a 20-21 year old kid $50 million dollars. I'd be higher on Stafford and Stanford if they were older. You can argue that it's not much different than giving the same to a 22-23 year old kid, but I strongly disagree. One year of college life and legal drinking is HUGE in a young man's maturity.


Regarding Andre Smith - he's listed as being 6'4" I've never called someone that tall short in my life... Until I get real #'s on the kid at the combine, I'm not going to assume that his listed height is wrong.


December 20th, 2008, 12:49 pm
Millen Draft Pick - Epic Bust

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Stallion wrote:
dh86 wrote:
Their left guard was a Saints reject who spent his entire career on the inactive list and right guard is an undrafted free agent. Now, every team cannot be the Jets and allocate a large sum of money to every offensive line position. Offensive line, more than any other position, requires scouting ability. With Millen as GM, its no surprise that we haven't had a top 10 line since 2000. Left Tackle is a premium position that has to be found at the top of the draft. Why use a high draft pick on a QB in 2009 when that pick could be used for a player that can help us compete in 09? This isnt the NBA, tanking the season next year to have capspace for a superstar or for lottery ping pong balls to fall our way to get one doesnt apply here. Draft a QB when they are in position to immediately make an impact.
A team could have 21 good players and a average to below average QB and have a hard time making it to the super bowl. A team can have a great QB and 15 or so good players and make it all the way. Great QBs dont come along every day and you have to take your shot when you get a chance.


If a team have 21 good players and an average QB, they will go to the Super Bowl. Bears ring a bell? When Matt Hasselbeck had Walter Jones,Hutch,Alexander in their prime, he looked like a pro bowl franchise qb. Now, he has the worst QB rating in the league. Is he a franchise QB or not? Theres been good QBs in every single draft the past decade. Build the team and the Lions can get one next year if necesary.


December 20th, 2008, 2:06 pm
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Stallion wrote:
dh86 wrote:
Their left guard was a Saints reject who spent his entire career on the inactive list and right guard is an undrafted free agent. Now, every team cannot be the Jets and allocate a large sum of money to every offensive line position. Offensive line, more than any other position, requires scouting ability. With Millen as GM, its no surprise that we haven't had a top 10 line since 2000. Left Tackle is a premium position that has to be found at the top of the draft. Why use a high draft pick on a QB in 2009 when that pick could be used for a player that can help us compete in 09? This isnt the NBA, tanking the season next year to have capspace for a superstar or for lottery ping pong balls to fall our way to get one doesnt apply here. Draft a QB when they are in position to immediately make an impact.
A team could have 21 good players and a average to below average QB and have a hard time making it to the super bowl. A team can have a great QB and 15 or so good players and make it all the way. Great QBs dont come along every day and you have to take your shot when you get a chance.


Which is why they should wait till 2010 to get a QB, there isn't any 'great' ones in this draft. Stafford sucks.


December 20th, 2008, 4:19 pm
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Quote:
From what I understand Oher's stock is only falling because these over-hyped Qbs and Andre Smith are rising, for no apparent reason. You can complain about Cantwell's "hitch" if you want to, but Stafford and Stanford do not have great throwing motions either. One of them, I forget which one, has a motion very similar to Hunter Cantwell's!

I know stats aren't the best way to evaluate players but look at Cantwell's. He completed under 60% passes, with 6.6 YPA and as many TD-INT. Also Cantwell hasn't started many games in college which for the QB position ussually translates to lack of sucess.

Quote:
I like Jason Smith (Baylor), if that's who you meant, I like him as well, but I don't think that he would be as good as Oher. The difference I see THIS COMING YEAR is that the fall-off between Oher and Smith is much greater than the fall-off between Stafford/Stanford and Cantwell. Besides, we're talking about SITTING the Qb for 2-3 years anyhow... I'd rather sit Cantwell or Harrel after taking them in the 4th round than sitting Staff or Stan after taking them #1 overall. You're talking about sitting $30million dollars, I'm talking about sitting THREE million dollars, and that's being generous! If we can't get a "hitch" out of a throwing motion in 3 years, then we better not draft a Qb because we sure as hell don't know how to coach one...
I feel it is exactly oppisite. Jason Smith is much closer to Oher the Cantwell is to Stafford. I know it sucks to draft a player so high and sit them but its a sacrifice. Sometimes you have to sacrifice a short term gain for long term reward.

Quote:
You can say that Harrel is a systems Qb, and you're right, but that doesn't mean he's bad. Payton Manning is a systems Qb too, so is Tom Brady and Matt Cassel. A good system makes a Qb great. Harrel understands offenses, and he's more than happy to play within himself and within his system. He makes good decisions, and he's not some loose cannon that goes out and loses you a game. I'd LOVE that out of a rookie. It usually takes 3-5 years MINIMUM for a Qb to learn that! Like I said, he reminds me a lot of Trent Edwards.
Every year we see QB's from Texas Tech, Hawaii or some other spread school put up huge numbers. Every year someone says this Kid is much better then the last and he can go pro and make a difference. MAybe Harrel is the one that breaks the mold but I don't see it happening. The spread he runs makes larger hoels for him to throw to so his accuracy i smade to be something its but. The games I watched he didn't seem to have that big of an arm and he in general looked smaller then listed (we will have to wait until the combine though)

Quote:
Also, I think you're discounting what it means to give a 20-21 year old kid $50 million dollars. I'd be higher on Stafford and Stanford if they were older. You can argue that it's not much different than giving the same to a 22-23 year old kid, but I strongly disagree. One year of college life and legal drinking is HUGE in a young man's maturity.
While that one year may make a little difference it isnt enough to base the pick on. The fact is these kids get paid to much.

Quote:
Regarding Andre Smith - he's listed as being 6'4" I've never called someone that tall short in my life... Until I get real #'s on the kid at the combine, I'm not going to assume that his listed height is wrong.
How many starting LT are 6'4 becuase the only one I know of is Jason Peters.

Quote:
If a team have 21 good players and an average QB, they will go to the Super Bowl. Bears ring a bell? When Matt Hasselbeck had Walter Jones,Hutch,Alexander in their prime, he looked like a pro bowl franchise qb. Now, he has the worst QB rating in the league. Is he a franchise QB or not? Theres been good QBs in every single draft the past decade. Build the team and the Lions can get one next year if necesary.

Yeah and that average QB worked out really well for the bears. The point is given our current roster and ownership how long do you think it will take to get those 21 players good enough to take us to the promised land? Hasselbeck isn't a bad QB but he was never really a game changer but more of a manager IMO. Also Hasslebeck has been hurt most the year along with his entire WR core so that example is kinda faulty much like your info on Smiley for the dolphins. Smiley started the first 12 games before he broke his leg. Andy Alleman (the player who was so bad for his entire ONE YEAR career with the saints after being a 3rd round pick) just replaced him.

Quote:
Which is why they should wait till 2010 to get a QB, there isn't any 'great' ones in this draft. Stafford sucks
Why does Stafford suck? is becuase you want a LT or do you have some real info you want to share.

_________________
2011 Adopted Lion: Rob Sims/Looking for a side job at I.H.O.P because he can't stop making pancakes.


December 21st, 2008, 2:22 am
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Heisman Winner

Joined: December 8th, 2008, 3:16 pm
Posts: 785
Post 
I've seen him play quite a few times and hasn't impressed me at all. He makes alot of mistakes (especially under pressure, NFL teams will dial up the blitz everytime against him!!!) and will get eaten alive with them in the pros. Plus, you have just as much if not better of drafting a QB in the middle to late rounds and developing him into an NFL QB then taking one #1 and him jumping in right away and being good.

I'd kill for them to get a Brees, Brady, Cassel, Favre, Warner, Favre in the 2nd-7th rounds. It just doesn't seem like the superstar QB is there @ #1 overall like a Peyton, etc.

And no I don't want an LT, I don't want any offense.

Last 9 years of picks
2000: Stockar McDougle
2001: Jeff Backus
2002: Joey Harrington
2003: Charles Rogers
2004: Roy Williams
2005: Mike Williams
2006: Ernie Sims
2007: Calvin Johnson
2008: Gosder Cherilous

1 Defensive player! No wonder why we suck, we need to get good defensive players EARLY. Football is won on the defensive end.


December 21st, 2008, 3:30 am
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Millen Draft Pick - Epic Bust

Joined: December 27th, 2006, 4:53 pm
Posts: 693
Post 
Stallion wrote:
Quote:
From what I understand Oher's stock is only falling because these over-hyped Qbs and Andre Smith are rising, for no apparent reason. You can complain about Cantwell's "hitch" if you want to, but Stafford and Stanford do not have great throwing motions either. One of them, I forget which one, has a motion very similar to Hunter Cantwell's!

I know stats aren't the best way to evaluate players but look at Cantwell's. He completed under 60% passes, with 6.6 YPA and as many TD-INT. Also Cantwell hasn't started many games in college which for the QB position ussually translates to lack of sucess.

Quote:
I like Jason Smith (Baylor), if that's who you meant, I like him as well, but I don't think that he would be as good as Oher. The difference I see THIS COMING YEAR is that the fall-off between Oher and Smith is much greater than the fall-off between Stafford/Stanford and Cantwell. Besides, we're talking about SITTING the Qb for 2-3 years anyhow... I'd rather sit Cantwell or Harrel after taking them in the 4th round than sitting Staff or Stan after taking them #1 overall. You're talking about sitting $30million dollars, I'm talking about sitting THREE million dollars, and that's being generous! If we can't get a "hitch" out of a throwing motion in 3 years, then we better not draft a Qb because we sure as hell don't know how to coach one...
I feel it is exactly oppisite. Jason Smith is much closer to Oher the Cantwell is to Stafford. I know it sucks to draft a player so high and sit them but its a sacrifice. Sometimes you have to sacrifice a short term gain for long term reward.

Quote:
You can say that Harrel is a systems Qb, and you're right, but that doesn't mean he's bad. Payton Manning is a systems Qb too, so is Tom Brady and Matt Cassel. A good system makes a Qb great. Harrel understands offenses, and he's more than happy to play within himself and within his system. He makes good decisions, and he's not some loose cannon that goes out and loses you a game. I'd LOVE that out of a rookie. It usually takes 3-5 years MINIMUM for a Qb to learn that! Like I said, he reminds me a lot of Trent Edwards.
Every year we see QB's from Texas Tech, Hawaii or some other spread school put up huge numbers. Every year someone says this Kid is much better then the last and he can go pro and make a difference. MAybe Harrel is the one that breaks the mold but I don't see it happening. The spread he runs makes larger hoels for him to throw to so his accuracy i smade to be something its but. The games I watched he didn't seem to have that big of an arm and he in general looked smaller then listed (we will have to wait until the combine though)

Quote:
Also, I think you're discounting what it means to give a 20-21 year old kid $50 million dollars. I'd be higher on Stafford and Stanford if they were older. You can argue that it's not much different than giving the same to a 22-23 year old kid, but I strongly disagree. One year of college life and legal drinking is HUGE in a young man's maturity.
While that one year may make a little difference it isnt enough to base the pick on. The fact is these kids get paid to much.

Quote:
Regarding Andre Smith - he's listed as being 6'4" I've never called someone that tall short in my life... Until I get real #'s on the kid at the combine, I'm not going to assume that his listed height is wrong.
How many starting LT are 6'4 becuase the only one I know of is Jason Peters.

Quote:
If a team have 21 good players and an average QB, they will go to the Super Bowl. Bears ring a bell? When Matt Hasselbeck had Walter Jones,Hutch,Alexander in their prime, he looked like a pro bowl franchise qb. Now, he has the worst QB rating in the league. Is he a franchise QB or not? Theres been good QBs in every single draft the past decade. Build the team and the Lions can get one next year if necesary.

Yeah and that average QB worked out really well for the bears. The point is given our current roster and ownership how long do you think it will take to get those 21 players good enough to take us to the promised land? Hasselbeck isn't a bad QB but he was never really a game changer but more of a manager IMO. Also Hasslebeck has been hurt most the year along with his entire WR core so that example is kinda faulty much like your info on Smiley for the dolphins. Smiley started the first 12 games before he broke his leg. Andy Alleman (the player who was so bad for his entire ONE YEAR career with the saints after being a 3rd round pick) just replaced him.

Quote:
Which is why they should wait till 2010 to get a QB, there isn't any 'great' ones in this draft. Stafford sucks
Why does Stafford suck? is becuase you want a LT or do you have some real info you want to share.


Rex Grossman went to the bench for a slightly better QB in Kyle Orton. Recent NFL history is rife with low round or undrafted QBs who sat for years watching and learning a consistent system and came in and produced (Brady,Romo,Warner,Cassel,Hasslebeck,Delhomme,Garrard,Bulger) and high round QBs that came into already built football teams and produced (E. Manning, Roethlisberger,Cutler,Rivers,Culpepper). The majority of the good QBs in the NFL today are one or the other. Guys like Peyton and Matt Ryan are anomalies of the highest regard. QB is a highly important position, thats why you set up your passer for success, not failure. Joey Harrington has his 7th offensive coordinator in 7 years. Of course hes a bust. He was set up for failure in Detroit. As was Jamarcus Russell in Oak. He was brought into a literally impossible situation. On the other hand, Aaron Rodgers sat and watched Brett Favre for 3 years and learned the West Coast Offense front and back. Is it any wonder why he is suceeding? In the past 10 years, there are way too many low round/undrafted QBs that got to sit and learn the system for years and produce. Without the large draft signing bonus. Hell, we even have one of those in Dan Orlovsky (maybe). You and many of these other Lions fans have to wake up and watch the trend of modern day NFL. Until the Lions draft, scout, and think like it is 2009, we wont go anywhere.


December 21st, 2008, 3:45 am
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