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 A couple of monster Guards 
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Walk On

Joined: November 2nd, 2008, 1:29 am
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I saw DT Peria Jerry (295 lbs.) bullrush him in the pit at the senior bowl. Herman, who lined up at guard, was pushed all the way back to the dummy where he lost his balance and fell backwards. A reverse pancake one might say. I know you can't judge his ablility off of one play, but he looked like crap.


Unfortunately, I don't get to watch the Senior Bowl, so I'll take your word for it. This was during practice/drills, yes?

There is some question about his height, but I rounded up some fodder about that, and more. Here's what some folks are saying about Big Herm:

Quote:
Bengals LG Andrew Whitworth may be their best offensive lineman right now and he stands at 6'7. Stacy Andrews was a terrific LG before moving to RT. He also stands 6'7. While 6'7 is very tall and wouldn't work in zone blocking schemes such as Green Bay, Denver, or Houston, it is typically fine for a Guard to be that height. A Center is really the only position in most offenses that can't be more than 6'5 or so His size helps him...


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LG or RT he will be beast wherever the **** he plays. Great footwork for a big bastard.


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Yeah and I saw him almost run someone half his size down on an INT return that last game....

Big fella can move


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With good Balance/Techinique/Knee bend etc.

A 6'7/6'8 Guard is really only 6'3-6'5.


Quote:
6'7 isn't too tall for an OG. There are a ton of examples, I'll just add another, Todd Herremans is a natural Tackle playing LG, and he is 6'7. I can undeerstand more worries if he was 6'10 or more, Like King Dunlap (who is a LT) but 6'8 isn't much to worry about. Like said before, it is their playing height that matters most. Personally, depending on what the Eagles want to do, I could see us selecting him in the first round, depending on where the selctions wind up being.


Quote:
No way. The man is a legit stud.

Man, do I love the top two guards in this years class. Duke Robinson and Herman Johnson are just All-World OG prospects, IMO. Maybe not quite Steve Hutchinson, but anyone after that is fair game, IMO.

Jaguars need to take one of these guys and have an elite guard for the next 10-15 years.


Quote:
He's not going to be coveted by all teams, a lot will depend on the blocking schemes teams use. ZBS teams may avoid him but teams that like massive OLmen for pass blocking or prefer to run up the gut rather than go wide a lot may love the guy. Many teams have different requirements for the OG position.


Quote:
Strengths: Mammoth size with dominant strength ... Very long arms ... Great pancake block ability ... Solid athleticism to pull and trap ... Getting better at picking up blitzes ... Nice hand punch ... Mentally tough and doesn't wear down in the fourth quarter ... Extremely strong hands and can manhandle opponents ... Great in short-yardage and goal-line situations ... A lot of experience ... Could be worked out at right tackle ... Extremely high upside.

Weaknesses: Needs to block with more balance and slightly lower to the ground ... Needs to develop footwork a bit.


Quote:
Strengths:
Rare size and amazing bulk...Extremely powerful...Has long arms and huge hands...Good strength...Gets a great push in the run game...Solid pass blocker and is stout at the point of attack...Once he locks on the defender is finished...Good awareness...Will play to the whistle and has a nasty demeanor...Nice intangibles...Might offer some versatility.


I'd just like to add that this isn't some obese dude with a gut the size of a refrigerator from eating too many cheezy poofs. Dude is noted for 'speed to the second level' and chasing down punks half his size. I just don't see the lazy slacker angle.

There are teams who might reach for a guy like this, so ultimately I'm not sure how high he'll go. I'm not opposed to 1b. and 2 picks for Robinson/Johnson. You could probably trade down from 20 to do it.

-ILMP


January 28th, 2009, 12:02 am
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Walk On
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I feel this position is the one in most need of change for our franchise. Who's our slated starters for next year. Manny and Peterman? Wasnt Manny a 5th rounder and Peterman a wavier pickup? Even if thats not right who the hecks the backups?

Gotta draft some young guards for sure. I dont want us to waste our #1's on them but after that I'd love to see at least 2 picks used on them before the 5th round.

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January 28th, 2009, 12:54 am
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Depending on where we go at #1 I wouldn't mind trading down from #20 to later in round 1 and taking Duke there. That way we pick up say a 3rd or 4th rounder and we can go defense at #33.


January 28th, 2009, 11:30 am
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Walk On

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inheritedlionsfan wrote:
Depending on where we go at #1 I wouldn't mind trading down from #20 to later in round 1 and taking Duke there. That way we pick up say a 3rd or 4th rounder and we can go defense at #33.


If we could drop down maybe 10 spots from #20, could we realistically pick up a 3rd? I don't know the trade values that well. I'd absolutely pull that deal to pick up a 3rd, as I like several players that project as 3rds. I have no idea who will be available in the 4th and later. If it's an extra 3rd rounder, that would be a great deal IMO.

-ILMP


January 28th, 2009, 10:10 pm
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We should be able to fill our guard needs in the 3rd. my top OG prospects look like this

1Alex Mack
2Tyrone Green
3Duke Robinson
4Trevor Canfield
5Eric Wood
6Antione Caldwell
7Kraig Urbik
8Andy Levitre


Notice that many of the good guard Prospects played C in college.


January 31st, 2009, 1:18 am
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In a perfect world Manny Ramirez will be ready to take over one spot. He was showing improvement in camp last season. THat would leave room to pick a couple of G prospects for depth and to compete for the other spot. It might be a stretch to think they are instantly going to pick 2 starters in rd 3.

I like Urbik, Robinson, and T. Green from Auburn for the later rounds. I think a good strategy going in might be to target Duke Robinson or Urbik with the 2nd rd or 1st 3rd rd pick. Then plan to look later in rd 5 for a prospect who slides. Lots of OG slide later than we expect.

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January 31st, 2009, 10:33 am
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Walk On

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Wiz,

Alot of folks are down on Herm Johnson, but he doesn't even make your list? His upside, if he actually touches his potential, is perhaps greater than anyone on your list.

-ILMP


February 1st, 2009, 1:47 am
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Robinson is a stud

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February 2nd, 2009, 8:29 pm
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Now that Peterman was signed to 5 yrs/$15 mil, our O-Line looks like:

Backus | ? ? ? | Raiola | Peterman | Cherilus

Do we go after Robinson with 1B and try to trade down a few spots, or hope he's there at 2A? Or wait for Urbik in round 3.

Is there a chance we'll have the power-run game we need with this lineup?


February 17th, 2009, 12:53 pm
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v1ly4 wrote:
Now that Peterman was signed to 5 yrs/$15 mil, our O-Line looks like:

Backus | ? ? ? | Raiola | Peterman | Cherilus

Do we go after Robinson with 1B and try to trade down a few spots, or hope he's there at 2A? Or wait for Urbik in round 3.

Is there a chance we'll have the power-run game we need with this lineup?


If Gene Upshaw or Randall McDaniel were available in their mid 20s. Since they arent, no. Not making roster changes on the line reeks of ego. They want to prove they are so much better than the last staff that they can take the same line and make them play much better. A rude awakening will ensue. The same thing that happened when Rogers was replaced with Darby.


February 17th, 2009, 2:15 pm
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Some interesting things from McShay's Offensive Lineman Breakdown.

I know a lot of people here would like to take Duke Robinson in the first round. I personally think that's too high for him. But Mcshay says he may be had in the third round.

Quote:
Sliding to the inside, a guard has been drafted in the first round in each of the past four drafts, but look for that trend to come to a screeching halt this year. In fact, there is an excellent chance the first guard doesn't come off the board until the third round. Though his versatility combined with quick feet and a strong punch could make him a second-round pick, Jamon Meredith projects as a tackle even though he can play guard.


Apparently the guards don't grade as high as in past years. Duke should go in the middle to end of round 2, but if he falls to the third round, I wouldn't hesitate to pull the trigger on him.

Next, here's a ranking of offensive linemen irrespective of position. It helps to see where the o line prospects stand in relation to one another. This is a good year for stand out centers.

Quote:
Ranking the OL at the NFL scouting combine
Player Pos. School Ht. Wt. Grade
1. Eugene Monroe OT Virginia 6-5⅛ 310 97
2. Jason Smith OT Baylor 6-4½ 300 96
3. Andre Smith OT Alabama 6-4⅞ 341 95
4. Michael Oher OT Mississippi 6-5 309 93
5. Alex Mack C Cal 6-4⅛ 312 90
6. Jamon Meredith OT South Carolina 6-4¾ 289 83
7. Eben Britton * OT Arizona 6-5½ 310 82
8. Phil Loadholt OT Oklahoma 6-8 347 81
9. Max Unger C Oregon 6-4¾ 299 80
10. William Beatty OT Connecticut 6-6 291 77
11. Duke Robinson OG Oklahoma 6-5½ 335 76
12. Andy Levitre OG Oregon State 6-2⅜ 306 75
13. Johnathan Luigs C Arkansas 6-3⅜ 302 71
14. Tyronne Green OG Auburn 6-1⅝ 305 70
15. Augustus Parrish OT Kent State 6-4⅛ 297 69
16. Kraig Urbik OG Wisconsin 6-5⅜ 323 68
17. Fenuki Tupou OT Oregon 6-5⅜ 328 67
18. Antoine Caldwell C Alabama 6-3⅜ 307 67
19. Louis Vasquez OG Texas Tech 6-4¾ 330 65
20. Eric Wood C Louisville 6-4⅛ 304 63
21. Troy Kropog OT Tulane 6-5⅜ 316 62
22. Trevor Canfield OG Cincinnati 6-4½ 311 62
23. Herman Johnson OG LSU 6-7⅜ 382 61
24. Ramon Foster OG Tennessee 6-5 338 59
25. Alex Boone OT Ohio State 6-7⅜ 330 56
26. Anthony Parker OG Tennessee 6-1⅞ 310 53
27. Xavier Fulton OT Illinois 6-4½ 301 51
28. Greg Isdaner * OG West Virginia 6-4 322 51
29. Matt Slauson OG Nebraska 6-5 318 48
30. Jason Watkins OT Florida 6-6 317 47
31. Gerald Cadogan OT Penn State 6-5⅛ 309 46
32. Andrew Gardner OT Georgia Tech 6-6 302 43
33. Edwin Williams C Maryland 6-2⅜ 311 42
34. Travis Bright OG BYU 6-4⅜ 316 41
35. Cornelius Lewis OT Tennessee State 6-3⅝ 324 40
36. Andy Kemp OG Wisconsin 6-5 315 39
37. Lydon Murtha OT Nebraska 6-7 307 32
38. Ray Feinga OG BYU 6-4 336 31
39. A.Q. Shipley C Penn State 6-0⅝ 297 31
40. Jose Valdez OT Arkansas 6-4⅝ 318 30
41. Joel Bell OT Furman 6-6⅞ 312 30
42. Maurice Miller OT Mississippi 6-3¼ 307 30
43. Garrett Reynolds OT North Carolina 6-7⅞ 310 30
44. Seth Olsen OT Iowa 6-4¾ 304 30
45. Robert Brewster OT Ball State 6-4½ 319 30
46. Kyle Link OT McNeese State 6-4¾ 298 30
47. Ryan McKee OT Southern Miss 6-5¼ 291 30
48. Roger Allen OG Missouri Western 6-3 322 30
49. Pauliasi Fanaika OG Arizona State 6-5⅜ 337 30
50. C.J. Davis OG Pittsburgh 6-2¼ 307 30
51. Jaimie Thomas OG Maryland 6-4 331 30
52. Brandon Walker OG Oklahoma 6-3 305 30
53. Charles Helms C LSU 6-1⅞ 282 30
54. Jon Cooper C Oklahoma 6-2 275 30
55. Alex Fletcher C Stanford 6-2⅝ 302 30
56. Robert Bruggeman C Iowa 6-3 288 30
57. Robby Felix C UTEP 6-3⅛ 292 30
58. Juan Garcia C Washington 6-2¼ 311 30
* Denotes junior prospect


Finally, something that I've been doing more this year is looking at past trends, to help determine availability of prospects by position by the number drafted per round. They have a nice chart showing the past three years. It really helps in the latter part of the draft.

Quote:
The following is a graphic representation of the number of offensive linemen selected in each round of the previous three NFL drafts. Most NFL teams use this type of chart to study position trends when setting up their respective draft boards each year.


Quote:
Offensive Tackles
Round 2008 2007 2006 Average

1 7 3 1 3.7
2 1 1 4 2
3 2 4 3 4
4 7 2 3 4
5 2 2 4 2.7
6 2 5 2 3
7 8 5 3 5.3
Total 29 22 20 23.7


Quote:
Offensive Guards
Round 2008 2007 2006 Average

1 1 1 1 1
2 1 2 2 1.6
3 2 1 2 1.6
4 1 4 4 3
5 1 2 3 2
6 1 1 4 2
7 2 2 6 3.3
Total 9 13 22 14.6


Quote:
Centers
Round 2008 2007 2006 Average

1 0 0 1 0.3
2 0 2 2 1.3
3 0 0 0 0
4 0 1 0 0.3
5 0 1 0 0.3
6 2 2 2 2
7 0 0 3 1
Total 2 6 8 5.3


For the rest of the offensive breakdowns with charts like these:
Quarterbacks
Runningbacks
Wide Recievers
Tight Ends

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February 17th, 2009, 3:46 pm
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dh86 wrote:
If Gene Upshaw or Randall McDaniel were available in their mid 20s. Since they arent, no. Not making roster changes on the line reeks of ego. They want to prove they are so much better than the last staff that they can take the same line and make them play much better. A rude awakening will ensue. The same thing that happened when Rogers was replaced with Darby.

I think you're jumping the gun a bit here. Resigning Peterman doesn't mean there won't be any changes on the O-line. We haven't even started free agency yet, not to mention the draft, and you're already concluding that there will be no changes. You may be right and there may not be changes. Or, you may be wrong and they may sign a free agent or two, and/or draft O-lineman. Let's say they do draft O-line. Resigning Peterman was probably a necessary evil, so to speak. No team can just scrap everyone and start with all rookies. Even if the guys currently on the team aren't that good, you have to keep some of them around as veterans and potentially just as placeholders until the rookies can work their way into the starting lineup.

The doom and gloom pessimism is really getting old. So far, Lewand and Mayhew have made pretty much all good moves. Nothing earth shattering, but they've made solid moves that appear to be beneficial to the team. How free agency and the draft shake out will go a long way to seeing what their plan is and being able to evaluate their performance. But so far, they've done a pretty darn good job, and I think people should stop constantly bitching. Millen is gone. There are new people in charge and we should give them the benefit of the doubt until they prove otherwise.

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February 17th, 2009, 4:01 pm
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TDJ, I have to agree that we are likely to retain virtually the same line. Peterman is locked in for a couple years minimum with this contract. Ramirez is likely going to LG as your future starter. Drafting another high profile guard would essentially make your '07 pick a bust or career backup. Either that, or one of them replaces Peterman, and then you eat Peterman's salary.

Backus is under contract and is likely to be retained. Raiola was just talked about by Tom Lewand as one of the reasons it is necessary to have 35 million in cap space with his final year upcoming. Everyone in our coaching staffs past and present love Raiola and Backus. Cherilus is here to stay. That doesn't leave much room for change in '09. I can see low profile signings for depth, but no major changes.

I'd be very surprised to see a guard or tackle acquisition North of round five. Possibly a low tier FA or two.

-ILMP


February 17th, 2009, 7:01 pm
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Manny Ramirez was a 5th Rd pick. It would be Nice if he became a good starter but if he ends up a career backup (that was good enough to push peterman) then that doesnt make him a bust at all. Its not like he was a 2nd rounder like Dizon that isnt playing/performing.

On That note.. If we arent going to Draft an LT this year (Unless a great 1 slips well past their value and we get lucky) , I cant be the only person thinking that Drafting Alex Mack at #33 as a Competitor to replace Mutilato and also our Center of the Future is a Great idea. 1 of the problems with our Linemen is at Depth , nobody is versatile. Damien Woody was the last Versatile Lineman we had. Having Mack Learn next to Dominic (Who supposedly is a very Cerebral Center just lacking Power) and eventually being able to replace him would be good enough for me.

It would also Allow us to Go Superstar D player (or QB )for #1 , and Defense with 1B , 3A & 3B. If we can get Alex Mack at Guard/future Center and 3 Starters on Defense all out of the 1st 3 Rounds I would be very happy, even if we draft Stafford.


February 17th, 2009, 10:09 pm
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Walk On

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Not that it makes too big of a difference, but Manny was a 4b selection. 18th pick in the 4th round. I accept that it's not a huge loss to displace him at guard, but it's just a little early to do so. Doesn't he get a shot before we draft his replacement?

I like your theory on Mack as an all-around guy for depth, but he'd be drafted at a place where he's expected to be a solid starter. Again, he'd be displacing Ramirez before he got a chance to develop. You've instantly made him a backup. Mack doesn't fit anywhere else on our line until Raiola is gone. He can't displace Peterman, or we've just wasted a boatload of money on a backup. It's not like Raiola is going anywhere soon. He's here this year and it's clear Lewand expects to resign him. Probably another 3 years at least... Mack would be a guard for a long time. I'm just not sure the timing is right, but we could probably do worse.

I really wanted to improve the O-line, but with the current mix of developing players, coupled with contract situations, and the FO man-love for Raiola/Backus, I just don't see the play. If I was GM, I'm not 100% sure what I'd do. It would probably be dependent on the staff's evaluation of Ramirez' talent level.

-ILMP


February 17th, 2009, 11:26 pm
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