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 I can't believe this. I have changed my mind about #1. 
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Millen Draft Pick - Epic Bust

Joined: December 27th, 2006, 4:53 pm
Posts: 693
Post 
Murtyle wrote:
faulkn22 wrote:
The only way I take Stafford is if I am comfortable sitting him at 12 million a year for at least a year or two... and I'm not comfortable doing that :p especially when there isn't a shortage of qb's to come out in the near future.


I also picked this up from an espn article and thought it was relevant to the Stafford debate...

"Stafford was directly preceded at Georgia by the recently retired David Greene; both spent their entire college careers under head coach Mark Richt in similar offensive systems. Stafford's college numbers are actually worse than Greene's, with the latter completing 59 percent of his passes and averaging 8.01 yards per attempt to Stafford's 7.83. If Stafford was really a star in the making, wouldn't he have put up better numbers, in the same system, than a guy who washed out of the NFL without taking a professional snap? If it was our $25 million guaranteed, the answer would need to be yes."


This is getting ridiculous...

This is the problem with being the front runner for a #1 pick... People are always looking for a way to pick your game apart...

Stafford set the UGA record this year for TD passes and is 2nd in yards behind Eric Ziere on a single season basis...

Greene started as a red shirt freshman (versus a true freshman like Stafford) and played a full year more than Stafford... Greene is a product of playing in a lot of games that is why he has career records... He doesn't own 1 single season record that I know of...

Greene threw just 13 TDs and 11 INTs as a junior... The next year, Richt changed the offense because of Greene's liabilities... Greene never completed more than 60 % of his passes... Stafford finished his junior year with a 61 % completion rate while owning the record for single season TDs...

Stafford is 3100 yds and 25 TDs short of breaking Greene's career records... Had Stafford played another year, one could reasonably assume he would improve on his previous stats, breaking Greene's records and likely ending up with higher overall completion percentage...

Stafford played 2 years after Greene... In that article it says that Greene directly preceded him... That isn't even half true...

That article was ridiculous...

Seriously, the kid completed 61 % of his passes, threw 25 TDs vs 10 INTs in the best defensive conference in the NCAA with a less than average offensive line as a TRUE Junior... He is accurate, mobile, smart, a good leader, sees the field well, anticipates his throws well, has an excellent build for a qb, a nice release and an absolute cannon for an arm... What else do you want from the kid? In what way is this not worthy of the #1 overall pick?

Can he improve on some things? Sure... Name 1 prospect in the history of the draft that couldn't...


David also had Michael Cooper and Kregg Lumpkin at runningback as well. Talent so great that they went undrafted. With his deep threat in Fred Gibson that is currently playing minor league basketball. Dont try to make it like it is a constant. Matt Stafford struggled mightly until Knowshon Moreno became the RB at Georgia. Suddenly, Stafford is a great playaction QB. Who did David Greene or DJ Shockley have on offense that even approached Moreno's level as a player? AJ Green was the best WR in the SEC last year as a true freshman. Who did Greene and Shockley have on that level on offense?


February 17th, 2009, 2:24 pm
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Mr. Irrelevant

Joined: April 16th, 2005, 3:23 pm
Posts: 941
Location: Hollywood, FL
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faulkn22 wrote:
I have read this same thing from other sources as well, so if you want to make it look as if you are right and they are all wrong, by all means. Hey, maybe you know Mark Richt, or you lock yourself in a room and watch tape all day (scary without being paid, but I guess you could), but stats are stats and the fact is a washed up qb put up better numbers than him. You can use excuses if you'd like to prop up your choice, thats cool.
My point is, you'd think hecould outperform a kid that never threw a pass in the league. It doesn't matter if he played "directly" behind him, it was the same system. They haven't changed schemes. In fact, the only thing that has changed there are the people surrounding Stafford. They are all better than what they've had in the past.


Trying to belittle me isn't going to get your point across any better... But carry on, it just makes you look like a child... Maybe you are... Who knows?

So you think comparing a QB during 4 full seasons after a red shirt year is equal to comparing a QB after 3 years as a true freshman? You are certainly entitled to your opinion... However, skewed it may be...

What's more, why are his stats better than the ones I presented? Do single season records mean less than career ones?

Ill address that supporting cast thing in my next post...

Quote:
Fact of the matter is, this kid wouldn't break the first round in other qb classes. There is no doubt about that.

Thats the most asinine remark I've read to this point... First you need to look up the definition of "fact"... You have absolutely no basis for the statement...

Quote:
You seem to be in love with his arm. You ask what could he do better? How about show up to play against a sorry defense like MSU. He played well for about 10 minutes that game, which is pathetic. That was the nail in the coffin for him from me, if you can't torch that defense, you think you are going to go through Baltimores? Get real.


Actually I look at arm strength last...

Everyone brings up this one half of football, that I don't even think he played all that bad in and says we shouldn't draft him because of it... You have a whole season with him going against better defenses and UGA putting up points... Why is one half the overall deciding factor?

The big game thing is another that makes me laugh (besides the fact that it is a nonsense argument)... He won every bowl game and beat UF, ALA, AUB and TEN in his career... Its stupid...

BTW... Greene holds the career records in the ENTIRE SEC for Yards and Wins....

Quote:
Moral of the story... You can bash an article (for not being accurate that they played back to back) but don't take it so far as to think you are going to overshadow the stats and facts with your rhetoric. If you were that damn smart, you'd be writing in that mans place, would you not?


The article was crap... You can buy into it because it fits what you want to believe...

Rhetoric? Hardly...

nfldraftscout wrote:
Before his senior season, the coaching staff refined the playbook and went with a short-to-intermediate passing attack

The results proved to be record-breaking for David.


If you want facts, here are some facts...

Quote:
The Rule of 59: Evaluating college quarterbacks anything but an exact science
Special to NFLDraftScout.com by Dan Pucci



Evaluating quarterbacks from the college ranks is anything but an exact science. Decisions like selecting Peyton Manning over Ryan Leaf and Tim Couch before Donovan McNabb have changed franchises' fortunes dramatically and prove that drafting quarterbacks may be the toughest job a general manager ever faces. For every high selection franchise quarterback such as Manning or McNabb, there is a signal-caller who slipped through the cracks to find stardom, (think Tom Brady, Tony Romo).

I cannot claim to be able to find players like Brady and Romo, in the later rounds. However, what I have discovered after extensive research is a theory that is very effective and simple to test.

The theory warns teams to think long and hard before drafting a quarterback to be their future starter if he does not complete at least 59% of his passes during his last two collegiate seasons. This may not seem like a difficult rule to follow, since 59% is such a low number, particularly in the cozy confines of college. However, this has not stopped teams from drafting inaccurate college passers on a yearly basis, with the expectation of coaching them into productive NFL quarterbacks.

For years, front offices across the NFL have reviewed hundreds of factors when grading quarterbacks. While one quality in a quarterback may seem to be overrated by some, another has proved to be a much better indicator of success.

The quality I am referring to as the overrated factor is a quarterback's throwing power/velocity. It seems as though every year, a college quarterback jumps up draft boards after wowing scouts by throwing a football from his knees. Even though this is an impressive feat of strength, I am uncertain as to how it applies to being an NFL quarterback. This scenario has played out for years with similar results; from Jeff George to Todd Marinovich to Akili Smith and Kyle Boller. These cannon arms do not necessarily translate into NFL success.

There are many factors that help explain these passers' lack of success, but as these players move from college to the pro ranks, the margin allowed for error shrinks dramatically. Their strong arms can no longer save them from bad reads and high-risk throws. In a way, having a big arm in college can be a curse. It can cause players to develop bad habits and retard their ability to read defenses effectively. As every NFL expert will tell you, the speed and complexity of professional defenses is on a whole different level.

This is not to say that arm strength is not important. NFL quarterbacks must be able to make all the necessary throws, including the more difficult routes such as an out. But beyond having adequate throwing power, there are much more important factors to consider in a quarterback. Looking at the great quarterbacks of the past decade; (Peyton Manning, Brady, Favre, Warner, McNabb, Brees) only one, (Favre) possesses unparalleled arm strength. However, these quarterbacks all demonstrate combinations of outstanding leadership abilities, football intelligence, and decision making skills. Another quality that sets these quarterbacks apart is that they are all incredibly accurate passers. I will demonstrate that this very characteristic, passing accuracy, is a key indicator of NFL success.

The goal of every NFL team is to win the Super Bowl. After looking at previous Super Bowl teams, one thing stood out to me; almost all had very accurate signal callers.

In fact, the only team to win the big game in the sample below with a quarterback whose completion percentage was below the league average was the most recent champions, the New York Giants. So by simply using completion percentage and omitting defensive, rushing, and other very important statistics, we can be relatively certain that in the modern NFL scene, a very accurate quarterback substantially improves a team's opportunity for Super Bowl success.

Image

These numbers show that of the last 18 Super Bowl quarterbacks, only three of these passers had completion percentages below the league average. The average completion percentage of the two competing teams has been 62.2, while the league average has been 59.4 during that same span. It may seem obvious that elite teams all have good quarterbacks, but that is a large statistical gap in a game of inches.

This brings me to the title of this paper, "The Rule of 59". After reviewing every NFL draft from 1998 to 2006, I analyzed the statistics of each quarterbacks' college completion percentages. I initially used their career numbers, but that system seemed to unfairly penalize four-year starters who inevitably made their fair share of mistakes in their freshman and even sophomore seasons. Players like Donovan McNabb, Jay Cutler, and Brady Quinn all narrowly missed the cut, due to the old system. Instead, I chose to use the quarterbacks' statistics from their last two seasons in college. This allows the quarterback time to mature in the offensive system and college game in general. For junior eligible players, I used their junior and sophomore seasons. I only used quarterbacks selected in the first three rounds of the draft. I did this because throughout recent history, it does not appear that teams consistently look for potential starting quarterbacks any lower than the third round. I have omitted the quarterback classes after the 2006 Draft since it would be unfair to judge them at this point of their career. Below is a breakdown of every passer who failed to accumulate a completion percentage of 59 or better in his last two years of college.

Image

As you can see, the list is not very impressive. When we consider that four of these selections were top-5 picks and seven were chosen in the first round, the results are downright scary. Drafting a quarterback so high in the draft is a huge investment and making a mistake can cripple a franchise for a number of years.

Each of these quarterbacks have started in the NFL at some point, but none of these players have an NFL career completion percentage of 60 or higher, a number that most NFL coaches consider a benchmark. Taking the cumulative statistics of every quarterback in the above table and averaging them together, we are left with a signal caller who has started 27 games (less than two full seasons), completed just 56% of his passes, and has a rating of just under 70. This is not the kind of production most teams need from a high-selection quarterback.

The facts indicate that none of the above quarterbacks were very accurate passers in college and didn't seem to develop very much after entering the NFL.

This "Rule of 59" does not guarantee that compiling a gaudy completion percentage in college leads to NFL success. However, during the same time frame, the other side of 59 in our sample size has given us these quarterbacks. These players have combined for eleven AP All-Pro Selections. In the NFL, they have averaged 81 starts, a 62% completion rate, and a QB rating of 89.
[img]
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/images/5903.jpg[/img]

Image

As you can see, the majority of quarterbacks on this list pass the Rule of 59, the only exception being Rhett Bomar, the former Sooner. Note: Georgia's Matthew Stafford hit 59 in his last game.

Even though this quarterback class has often been described as weak, this group is one of the more accurate bunches in recent history. That does not mean that these quarterbacks come without their question marks though. The rapid growth of the spread offense in college has made life difficult for NFL staffs evaluating passers. Most spread offenses feature fewer downfield passes while doing a better job of protecting their quarterbacks. Still, players like Stafford and Sanchez remain high prospects playing for schools that employ pro-style offenses.

The new "wildcat" trend that swept through the NFL this season also looks to affect draft day with players such as Pat White benefitting the most from its use. Overall, with the spread offense sweeping across college and several NFL teams utilizing the wildcat, the process of scouting college quarterbacks has become very different than in years past. Rest assured however, that most of these players still pass the Rule of 59.

My background is not rooted in statistics and I strongly believe in scouting based on game film and on-field performance. This discovery was born from watching the game, not looking at box scores. As a manic observer of the NFL, I recognized a pattern of inaccurate college passers fizzling out of the NFL. I made an assessment but wanted to prove this wasn't just an opinion, so I conducted the extensive research to back up my beliefs. Since football is the ultimate team sport which evolves constantly, it is both impossible and short-sighted to judge players entirely on statistics. Eleven players moving constantly on each side of the ball cannot be quantified. However, sometimes statistics are the best way to look for proof in a theory.

With the NFL Draft fast-approaching, I hope this helps teams searching for a quarterback. The quarterback position is something sacred in football and has no equal in other sports. It is extremely demanding both mentally and physically and requires a set of skills most of us could only dream about. Great passers come in all shapes and sizes, from BCS schools and grocery stores. However, if we can learn one thing from recent history, it's this: It's a large risk a team takes in selecting an inaccurate college passer with expectations of greatness.



Dan Pucci


February 17th, 2009, 6:14 pm
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Mr. Irrelevant

Joined: April 16th, 2005, 3:23 pm
Posts: 941
Location: Hollywood, FL
Post 
dh86 wrote:
Murtyle wrote:
faulkn22 wrote:
The only way I take Stafford is if I am comfortable sitting him at 12 million a year for at least a year or two... and I'm not comfortable doing that :p especially when there isn't a shortage of qb's to come out in the near future.


I also picked this up from an espn article and thought it was relevant to the Stafford debate...

"Stafford was directly preceded at Georgia by the recently retired David Greene; both spent their entire college careers under head coach Mark Richt in similar offensive systems. Stafford's college numbers are actually worse than Greene's, with the latter completing 59 percent of his passes and averaging 8.01 yards per attempt to Stafford's 7.83. If Stafford was really a star in the making, wouldn't he have put up better numbers, in the same system, than a guy who washed out of the NFL without taking a professional snap? If it was our $25 million guaranteed, the answer would need to be yes."


This is getting ridiculous...

This is the problem with being the front runner for a #1 pick... People are always looking for a way to pick your game apart...

Stafford set the UGA record this year for TD passes and is 2nd in yards behind Eric Ziere on a single season basis...

Greene started as a red shirt freshman (versus a true freshman like Stafford) and played a full year more than Stafford... Greene is a product of playing in a lot of games that is why he has career records... He doesn't own 1 single season record that I know of...

Greene threw just 13 TDs and 11 INTs as a junior... The next year, Richt changed the offense because of Greene's liabilities... Greene never completed more than 60 % of his passes... Stafford finished his junior year with a 61 % completion rate while owning the record for single season TDs...

Stafford is 3100 yds and 25 TDs short of breaking Greene's career records... Had Stafford played another year, one could reasonably assume he would improve on his previous stats, breaking Greene's records and likely ending up with higher overall completion percentage...

Stafford played 2 years after Greene... In that article it says that Greene directly preceded him... That isn't even half true...

That article was ridiculous...

Seriously, the kid completed 61 % of his passes, threw 25 TDs vs 10 INTs in the best defensive conference in the NCAA with a less than average offensive line as a TRUE Junior... He is accurate, mobile, smart, a good leader, sees the field well, anticipates his throws well, has an excellent build for a qb, a nice release and an absolute cannon for an arm... What else do you want from the kid? In what way is this not worthy of the #1 overall pick?

Can he improve on some things? Sure... Name 1 prospect in the history of the draft that couldn't...


David also had Michael Cooper and Kregg Lumpkin at runningback as well. Talent so great that they went undrafted. With his deep threat in Fred Gibson that is currently playing minor league basketball. Dont try to make it like it is a constant. Matt Stafford struggled mightly until Knowshon Moreno became the RB at Georgia. Suddenly, Stafford is a great playaction QB. Who did David Greene or DJ Shockley have on offense that even approached Moreno's level as a player? AJ Green was the best WR in the SEC last year as a true freshman. Who did Greene and Shockley have on that level on offense?


Revisionist History anyone?

Greene played with:

George Foster (1st Rd)
Benjiman Watson (1st Rd)
Jonathan Stinchcomb (2nd Rd)
Reggie Brown (2nd Rd)
Musa Smith (3rd Rd)
Leonard Pope (3rd Rd)
Max Jean Gilles (4th Rd)
Fred Gibson (4th Rd)
Randy McMicheal (4th Rd)
Vernon Hayes (5th Rd)

Stafford has played with:

Massaquoi (Likely to be drafted)
Moreno (LTBD)
Green (LTBD)
Leonard Pope (3rd Rd)
Max Jean Gilles (4th Rd)
Martrez Milner (4th Rd)
Thomas Brown (6th Rd)
Chester Adams (7th Rd)

Who has played with more and better talent?


February 17th, 2009, 6:35 pm
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5th Round Pick - Traded
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Joined: January 11th, 2005, 11:35 pm
Posts: 1079
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Quote:
Where's Staffords compelling argument?


Quote:
He’s the type of signal caller who can mature into a bona fide starter at the next level and possesses all the tools to warrant the first overall selection.

You can’t say that about any other player in the draft.

Quote:
The only way I take Stafford is if I am comfortable sitting him at 12 million a year for at least a year or two... and I'm not comfortable doing that


Stafford’s contract will be most likely be back loaded. He will get about 2.5 first year and 3.5 second year base pay plus his signing bonus.

Two arguments I don’t buy into:

1. There are more QB draft day busts than successes. Peyton Manning, Michael Vick, Carson Palmer, and Eli Manning have all made the pro-bowl. Alex Smith, David Carr, Tim Couch all been busts but they were all system QBs in college and I don’t believe one QB who has run one those systems has been successful in the NFL. JaMarcus Russell is project and gets an incomplete. At worst your odds look to be 50/50.

2. Next years draft class for QB is stronger. Why? Tebow, Bradford and McCoy all run the spread offense which is great for putting up Heisman like stats but no spread offense QB has been successful in the NFL. Just look at Alex Smith or closer to home Drew Stanton who doesn’t look close to being a NFL ready QB. I think all 3 returned to college because they knew their game best suited for college. And there are no guarantees come next year.

_________________
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.


February 18th, 2009, 9:23 pm
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Millen Draft Pick - Epic Bust

Joined: December 27th, 2006, 4:53 pm
Posts: 693
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Murtyle wrote:
dh86 wrote:
Murtyle wrote:
faulkn22 wrote:
The only way I take Stafford is if I am comfortable sitting him at 12 million a year for at least a year or two... and I'm not comfortable doing that :p especially when there isn't a shortage of qb's to come out in the near future.


I also picked this up from an espn article and thought it was relevant to the Stafford debate...

"Stafford was directly preceded at Georgia by the recently retired David Greene; both spent their entire college careers under head coach Mark Richt in similar offensive systems. Stafford's college numbers are actually worse than Greene's, with the latter completing 59 percent of his passes and averaging 8.01 yards per attempt to Stafford's 7.83. If Stafford was really a star in the making, wouldn't he have put up better numbers, in the same system, than a guy who washed out of the NFL without taking a professional snap? If it was our $25 million guaranteed, the answer would need to be yes."


This is getting ridiculous...

This is the problem with being the front runner for a #1 pick... People are always looking for a way to pick your game apart...

Stafford set the UGA record this year for TD passes and is 2nd in yards behind Eric Ziere on a single season basis...

Greene started as a red shirt freshman (versus a true freshman like Stafford) and played a full year more than Stafford... Greene is a product of playing in a lot of games that is why he has career records... He doesn't own 1 single season record that I know of...

Greene threw just 13 TDs and 11 INTs as a junior... The next year, Richt changed the offense because of Greene's liabilities... Greene never completed more than 60 % of his passes... Stafford finished his junior year with a 61 % completion rate while owning the record for single season TDs...

Stafford is 3100 yds and 25 TDs short of breaking Greene's career records... Had Stafford played another year, one could reasonably assume he would improve on his previous stats, breaking Greene's records and likely ending up with higher overall completion percentage...

Stafford played 2 years after Greene... In that article it says that Greene directly preceded him... That isn't even half true...

That article was ridiculous...

Seriously, the kid completed 61 % of his passes, threw 25 TDs vs 10 INTs in the best defensive conference in the NCAA with a less than average offensive line as a TRUE Junior... He is accurate, mobile, smart, a good leader, sees the field well, anticipates his throws well, has an excellent build for a qb, a nice release and an absolute cannon for an arm... What else do you want from the kid? In what way is this not worthy of the #1 overall pick?

Can he improve on some things? Sure... Name 1 prospect in the history of the draft that couldn't...


David also had Michael Cooper and Kregg Lumpkin at runningback as well. Talent so great that they went undrafted. With his deep threat in Fred Gibson that is currently playing minor league basketball. Dont try to make it like it is a constant. Matt Stafford struggled mightly until Knowshon Moreno became the RB at Georgia. Suddenly, Stafford is a great playaction QB. Who did David Greene or DJ Shockley have on offense that even approached Moreno's level as a player? AJ Green was the best WR in the SEC last year as a true freshman. Who did Greene and Shockley have on that level on offense?


Revisionist History anyone?

Greene played with:

George Foster (1st Rd)
Benjiman Watson (1st Rd)
Jonathan Stinchcomb (2nd Rd)
Reggie Brown (2nd Rd)
Musa Smith (3rd Rd)
Leonard Pope (3rd Rd)
Max Jean Gilles (4th Rd)
Fred Gibson (4th Rd)
Randy McMicheal (4th Rd)
Vernon Hayes (5th Rd)

Stafford has played with:

Massaquoi (Likely to be drafted)
Moreno (LTBD)
Green (LTBD)
Leonard Pope (3rd Rd)
Max Jean Gilles (4th Rd)
Martrez Milner (4th Rd)
Thomas Brown (6th Rd)
Chester Adams (7th Rd)

Who has played with more and better talent?


You cannot be that dense can you? Many players Stafford has played with arent even draft eligible yet. We dont know where his non draft eligible teammates will go in the draft when eligible. Your list is strife with revisionist history as well. For example, Foster,Stinchcomb,McMichael,Smith and Hayes were all gone by Greene's junior year. The Junior year where he threw for a 60% completion. We know that Knowshon Moreno is the best RB in the SEC. We know that AJ Green is the best WR in the SEC (at least top 2 with Julio Jones). We know both were better than any player on offense David Greene played with. No matter how many players that did little to nothing at Georgia you try to post on a draft list.


February 18th, 2009, 10:01 pm
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Millen Draft Pick - Epic Bust

Joined: December 27th, 2006, 4:53 pm
Posts: 693
Post 
Murtyle wrote:
faulkn22 wrote:
I have read this same thing from other sources as well, so if you want to make it look as if you are right and they are all wrong, by all means. Hey, maybe you know Mark Richt, or you lock yourself in a room and watch tape all day (scary without being paid, but I guess you could), but stats are stats and the fact is a washed up qb put up better numbers than him. You can use excuses if you'd like to prop up your choice, thats cool.
My point is, you'd think hecould outperform a kid that never threw a pass in the league. It doesn't matter if he played "directly" behind him, it was the same system. They haven't changed schemes. In fact, the only thing that has changed there are the people surrounding Stafford. They are all better than what they've had in the past.


Trying to belittle me isn't going to get your point across any better... But carry on, it just makes you look like a child... Maybe you are... Who knows?

So you think comparing a QB during 4 full seasons after a red shirt year is equal to comparing a QB after 3 years as a true freshman? You are certainly entitled to your opinion... However, skewed it may be...

What's more, why are his stats better than the ones I presented? Do single season records mean less than career ones?

Ill address that supporting cast thing in my next post...



Matt Stafford does hold the Georgia single season record for TDs in a season with 25. He passed DJ Shockley's 24 TDs in 2005. DJ threw for 24 TDs and 5 Ints that season in his only season as starter. He did have a 55% completion, but of course he didnt have the elite talent on the team either. Matt Stafford was no different in terms of decision making or accuracy than Greene or Shockley until he met Knowshon Moreno and AJ Green. Enjoy Stafford arm if you like. If you have enjoyed Jamarcus Russell's NFL career, you'll love Stafford's the same.


February 18th, 2009, 10:10 pm
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Mr. Irrelevant

Joined: April 16th, 2005, 3:23 pm
Posts: 941
Location: Hollywood, FL
Post 
dh86 wrote:
Murtyle wrote:
dh86 wrote:
Murtyle wrote:
faulkn22 wrote:
The only way I take Stafford is if I am comfortable sitting him at 12 million a year for at least a year or two... and I'm not comfortable doing that :p especially when there isn't a shortage of qb's to come out in the near future.


I also picked this up from an espn article and thought it was relevant to the Stafford debate...

"Stafford was directly preceded at Georgia by the recently retired David Greene; both spent their entire college careers under head coach Mark Richt in similar offensive systems. Stafford's college numbers are actually worse than Greene's, with the latter completing 59 percent of his passes and averaging 8.01 yards per attempt to Stafford's 7.83. If Stafford was really a star in the making, wouldn't he have put up better numbers, in the same system, than a guy who washed out of the NFL without taking a professional snap? If it was our $25 million guaranteed, the answer would need to be yes."


This is getting ridiculous...

This is the problem with being the front runner for a #1 pick... People are always looking for a way to pick your game apart...

Stafford set the UGA record this year for TD passes and is 2nd in yards behind Eric Ziere on a single season basis...

Greene started as a red shirt freshman (versus a true freshman like Stafford) and played a full year more than Stafford... Greene is a product of playing in a lot of games that is why he has career records... He doesn't own 1 single season record that I know of...

Greene threw just 13 TDs and 11 INTs as a junior... The next year, Richt changed the offense because of Greene's liabilities... Greene never completed more than 60 % of his passes... Stafford finished his junior year with a 61 % completion rate while owning the record for single season TDs...

Stafford is 3100 yds and 25 TDs short of breaking Greene's career records... Had Stafford played another year, one could reasonably assume he would improve on his previous stats, breaking Greene's records and likely ending up with higher overall completion percentage...

Stafford played 2 years after Greene... In that article it says that Greene directly preceded him... That isn't even half true...

That article was ridiculous...

Seriously, the kid completed 61 % of his passes, threw 25 TDs vs 10 INTs in the best defensive conference in the NCAA with a less than average offensive line as a TRUE Junior... He is accurate, mobile, smart, a good leader, sees the field well, anticipates his throws well, has an excellent build for a qb, a nice release and an absolute cannon for an arm... What else do you want from the kid? In what way is this not worthy of the #1 overall pick?

Can he improve on some things? Sure... Name 1 prospect in the history of the draft that couldn't...


David also had Michael Cooper and Kregg Lumpkin at runningback as well. Talent so great that they went undrafted. With his deep threat in Fred Gibson that is currently playing minor league basketball. Dont try to make it like it is a constant. Matt Stafford struggled mightly until Knowshon Moreno became the RB at Georgia. Suddenly, Stafford is a great playaction QB. Who did David Greene or DJ Shockley have on offense that even approached Moreno's level as a player? AJ Green was the best WR in the SEC last year as a true freshman. Who did Greene and Shockley have on that level on offense?


Revisionist History anyone?

Greene played with:

George Foster (1st Rd)
Benjiman Watson (1st Rd)
Jonathan Stinchcomb (2nd Rd)
Reggie Brown (2nd Rd)
Musa Smith (3rd Rd)
Leonard Pope (3rd Rd)
Max Jean Gilles (4th Rd)
Fred Gibson (4th Rd)
Randy McMicheal (4th Rd)
Vernon Hayes (5th Rd)

Stafford has played with:

Massaquoi (Likely to be drafted)
Moreno (LTBD)
Green (LTBD)
Leonard Pope (3rd Rd)
Max Jean Gilles (4th Rd)
Martrez Milner (4th Rd)
Thomas Brown (6th Rd)
Chester Adams (7th Rd)

Who has played with more and better talent?


You cannot be that dense can you? Many players Stafford has played with arent even draft eligible yet. We dont know where his non draft eligible teammates will go in the draft when eligible. Your list is strife with revisionist history as well. For example, Foster,Stinchcomb,McMichael,Smith and Hayes were all gone by Greene's junior year. The Junior year where he threw for a 60% completion. We know that Knowshon Moreno is the best RB in the SEC. We know that AJ Green is the best WR in the SEC (at least top 2 with Julio Jones). We know both were better than any player on offense David Greene played with. No matter how many players that did little to nothing at Georgia you try to post on a draft list.


LOL... Dense... Thanks internet tough guy...

That Junior year was so good right? The one where he threw 13 TDs vs 11 INTs? Really set the world on fire huh? You didn't even have to do the research, I did it for you, I posted that what 3-4 posts ago? Hardly revisionist history... Those are facts...

You would have a point about Greene not playing with them his whole career except I did the same thing with Stafford... I figured for continuity sake, it would probably be easier to just list them all and let the chips fall where they may... This way I wouldn't be accused of "spinning" an argument...

Moreno is the best RB in the SEC... Green is a great talent, but he's also a freshman and did make his share of mistakes...

More importantly, how are you going to fault him for playing with talent? He had to get them the ball and how many times do you see teams stack the line to stop the run? Not often... So while Moreno did help Stafford, it also worked both ways...

Now as the players who aren't draftable yet... There is no way to tell, who and who will not be drafted in the future, but I ask you, who is it that you think I left off? Any of their much maligned offensive lineman? Kaleb King and his 61 carriers in garbage time? Please feel free to educate me to your level...

Ahh so they did nothing when they were there, even though you said

Quote:
Talent so great that they went undrafted.


therefore equating talent to being drafted... So now the facts don't support your claim its something different? Makes perfect sense... Carry on... :roll:


February 19th, 2009, 12:02 am
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Mr. Irrelevant

Joined: April 16th, 2005, 3:23 pm
Posts: 941
Location: Hollywood, FL
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dh86 wrote:
Murtyle wrote:
faulkn22 wrote:
I have read this same thing from other sources as well, so if you want to make it look as if you are right and they are all wrong, by all means. Hey, maybe you know Mark Richt, or you lock yourself in a room and watch tape all day (scary without being paid, but I guess you could), but stats are stats and the fact is a washed up qb put up better numbers than him. You can use excuses if you'd like to prop up your choice, thats cool.
My point is, you'd think hecould outperform a kid that never threw a pass in the league. It doesn't matter if he played "directly" behind him, it was the same system. They haven't changed schemes. In fact, the only thing that has changed there are the people surrounding Stafford. They are all better than what they've had in the past.


Trying to belittle me isn't going to get your point across any better... But carry on, it just makes you look like a child... Maybe you are... Who knows?

So you think comparing a QB during 4 full seasons after a red shirt year is equal to comparing a QB after 3 years as a true freshman? You are certainly entitled to your opinion... However, skewed it may be...

What's more, why are his stats better than the ones I presented? Do single season records mean less than career ones?

Ill address that supporting cast thing in my next post...



Matt Stafford does hold the Georgia single season record for TDs in a season with 25. He passed DJ Shockley's 24 TDs in 2005. DJ threw for 24 TDs and 5 Ints that season in his only season as starter. He did have a 55% completion, but of course he didnt have the elite talent on the team either. Matt Stafford was no different in terms of decision making or accuracy than Greene or Shockley until he met Knowshon Moreno and AJ Green. Enjoy Stafford arm if you like. If you have enjoyed Jamarcus Russell's NFL career, you'll love Stafford's the same.


Ahh ok... So it can't be that he matured from a FRESHMAN QB, it has to be the emergence of the players around him? Yet you don't give Stafford any credit for making these players better?

If you had watched Stafford play throughout those careers and you are a reasonable person you would see that those things are not true... At the very least Stafford does as much for those players as they did for him... Bottom line... There is no arguing that...

Just an FYI, I called Russell the biggest bust in history before the draft even started... However, I was high on Quinn, Cutler and Ryan... Take it for what its worth...

Comparing Russell and Stafford is ridiculous... Russell was not accurate, played in a spread offense and was actually benched the year he was drafted... Whereas Stafford started as a true Freshman and never looked back, showing considerable improvement over the life of his career...

By all means call the sky green... It doesn't make it so...


February 19th, 2009, 12:12 am
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Millen Draft Pick - Epic Bust

Joined: December 27th, 2006, 4:53 pm
Posts: 693
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Murtyle wrote:
dh86 wrote:
Murtyle wrote:
faulkn22 wrote:
I have read this same thing from other sources as well, so if you want to make it look as if you are right and they are all wrong, by all means. Hey, maybe you know Mark Richt, or you lock yourself in a room and watch tape all day (scary without being paid, but I guess you could), but stats are stats and the fact is a washed up qb put up better numbers than him. You can use excuses if you'd like to prop up your choice, thats cool.
My point is, you'd think hecould outperform a kid that never threw a pass in the league. It doesn't matter if he played "directly" behind him, it was the same system. They haven't changed schemes. In fact, the only thing that has changed there are the people surrounding Stafford. They are all better than what they've had in the past.


Trying to belittle me isn't going to get your point across any better... But carry on, it just makes you look like a child... Maybe you are... Who knows?

So you think comparing a QB during 4 full seasons after a red shirt year is equal to comparing a QB after 3 years as a true freshman? You are certainly entitled to your opinion... However, skewed it may be...

What's more, why are his stats better than the ones I presented? Do single season records mean less than career ones?

Ill address that supporting cast thing in my next post...



Matt Stafford does hold the Georgia single season record for TDs in a season with 25. He passed DJ Shockley's 24 TDs in 2005. DJ threw for 24 TDs and 5 Ints that season in his only season as starter. He did have a 55% completion, but of course he didnt have the elite talent on the team either. Matt Stafford was no different in terms of decision making or accuracy than Greene or Shockley until he met Knowshon Moreno and AJ Green. Enjoy Stafford arm if you like. If you have enjoyed Jamarcus Russell's NFL career, you'll love Stafford's the same.


Ahh ok... So it can't be that he matured from a FRESHMAN QB, it has to be the emergence of the players around him? Yet you don't give Stafford any credit for making these players better?

If you had watched Stafford play throughout those careers and you are a reasonable person you would see that those things are not true... At the very least Stafford does as much for those players as they did for him... Bottom line... There is no arguing that...

Just an FYI, I called Russell the biggest bust in history before the draft even started... However, I was high on Quinn, Cutler and Ryan... Take it for what its worth...

Comparing Russell and Stafford is ridiculous... Russell was not accurate, played in a spread offense and was actually benched the year he was drafted... Whereas Stafford started as a true Freshman and never looked back, showing considerable improvement over the life of his career...

By all means call the sky green... It doesn't make it so...


The LSU offense Jamarcus Russell played in was the 'spread' under Jimbo Fisher, then Matt Stafford played in the 'spread' as well under Mark Richt. Given that Fisher and Richt have a very similar background, and Florida State hired Jimbo Fisher as their coach in waiting because they had to find someone as close to Richt as possible after Jeff Bowden flopped. Jimbo Fisher runs a very balanced, pro style offense. Jamarcus Russell was very much accurate out of his offense and was the superior college QB to Stafford in any aspect you wish to choose. Along with being his equal in arm strength.


February 19th, 2009, 12:47 am
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Mr. Irrelevant

Joined: April 16th, 2005, 3:23 pm
Posts: 941
Location: Hollywood, FL
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That is your opinion and your entitled to it, but I don't share it... We'll just have to see who has the better pro career...


February 19th, 2009, 3:10 am
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Modmin Dude
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Joined: December 31st, 2004, 9:55 am
Posts: 11942
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Ah, don't you just love draft time...when so many "draft experts" get to share their opinions? :wink:


February 19th, 2009, 10:33 am
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Millen Draft Pick - Epic Bust

Joined: December 27th, 2006, 4:53 pm
Posts: 693
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TheRealWags wrote:
Ah, don't you just love draft time...when so many "draft experts" get to share their opinions? :wink:


Yes, the time where regular people can be equally, or more accurate than the agent bribed bozos we see on ESPN.


February 19th, 2009, 12:42 pm
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Millen Draft Pick - Epic Bust

Joined: December 27th, 2006, 4:53 pm
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Its looking like we will not be taking a QB at #1, so I have wasted oh, about 200 posts by debating this issue.


February 20th, 2009, 2:51 pm
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RIP Killer
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Joined: June 26th, 2006, 1:03 pm
Posts: 13429
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Have we run the stats as to what color hair QB does better or what time of day he was born?

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February 20th, 2009, 3:14 pm
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RIP Killer
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Joined: October 20th, 2004, 4:16 pm
Posts: 9848
Location: Where ever I'm at now
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Here's the stat you need to know:

QB drafted by Lions = short, unillustrious career in NFL


February 20th, 2009, 4:42 pm
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