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Color Commentator - John Madden
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BClion, I totally agree with you. It's unfortunate that we have to draft a QB in a class which, in my opinion, is just as bad, if not worse, then the 05 class. We do need guards, but we don't want another Lynn Boden situation on our hands like in 75. Just a word of warning.

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February 12th, 2009, 9:41 am
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I don't understand how people are syaing how bad this QB class is compared to next years QB class.

I feel Stafford and Freeman are better then the seniors coming out next year.

2010 Senior Class
Colt McCoy (system QB)
Tim Tebow (system QB)

2010 Junior Class
Sam Bradford (system QB)
Jevon Snead (I actually like Snead)


February 12th, 2009, 11:45 am
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Stallion wrote:
I don't understand how people are syaing how bad this QB class is compared to next years QB class.

I feel Stafford and Freeman are better then the seniors coming out next year.

2010 Senior Class
Colt McCoy (system QB)
Tim Tebow (system QB)

2010 Junior Class
Sam Bradford (system QB)
Jevon Snead (I actually like Snead)


How irresponsible not to actually watch the quarterback and his skills himself. Especially when the offense Sam Bradford runs, is ran in the NFL. That makes the spread a Pro style offense. You ever watch the Saints?


February 12th, 2009, 12:18 pm
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First off, what nfl draft rule book are people reading that say, "If you possess the number one overall pick, you shall draft a QB." Who is making this crap up?

Secondly this is the truth:

Quote:
How irresponsible not to actually watch the quarterback and his skills himself. Especially when the offense Sam Bradford runs, is ran in the NFL. That makes the spread a Pro style offense. You ever watch the Saints?


The NFL is picking it up. Look no further than the Superbowl.

Kirwan wrote:
Pass out of the shotgun
Traditional West Coast-offense coaches don't like the shotgun, but it's becoming more and more apparent that the formation is here to stay and its use is growing.

The Cardinals and Steelers had a combined 48 shotgun snaps in the Super Bowl. Arizona tried one run and 32 passes from the shotgun; Pittsburgh didn't bother to run the ball once on its 15 shotgun plays. Kurt Warner and Ben Roethlisberger combined to complete 31 of the 47 passes thrown out of the shotgun for 398 yards. Imagine if they had a strong run game from the shotgun to balance the attack.

More no-huddle, less run
Both teams incorporated the no-huddle into their offensive philosophy, and they need to do more of it next season. The no-huddle puts a lot of stress on the defense.

All 14 plays from the no-huddle in the Super Bowl were passes, so here's another dimension that needs to develop a legitimate run game as a complement. Warner and Roethlisberger, who now have five Super Bowl appearances between them, completed 10 of 14 passes from the no-huddle for 167 yards. That's 16.7 yards per completion, even though the defense knows you're not running the ball. That's a fine accomplishment.

There were 38 running plays, compared to 77 passes, called in the Super Bowl. That means the Cardinals and Steelers ran the ball just 33 percent of the time, and I don't see that trend going away. In fact, when you consider that neither team could even average 3 yards per carry, it might be time to acknowledge what really got your team to the Super Bowl. The longest run in the game was 15 yards, but eight pass completions were longer than that.


Even Stafford, he has a higher success rate of completing passes from the shotgun than from under center. Watch the highlights, the majority of them have him in the gun. Can I accuse him of being a system QB too?

And regarding actually watching a QB play: I think it's funny that so many people here have fallen in love with Josh Freeman's big size, and big arm, but haven't watched him really play. Maybe just the highlights. But I've spoken to people who watch Big 12 football and they all say they can not believe he's being spoken of as a First Round QB. According to them, he's wildly inconsistent, not accurate, just a "bad QB." Their words not mine. As if he does not have the mental capacity of a franchise QB. So you have that, and you have Stafford who is another polarizing figure who people either praise his tools, or complain about his inconsistency. How is that better than next years class?

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February 12th, 2009, 3:59 pm
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dh86 wrote:
Stallion wrote:
I don't understand how people are syaing how bad this QB class is compared to next years QB class.

I feel Stafford and Freeman are better then the seniors coming out next year.

2010 Senior Class
Colt McCoy (system QB)
Tim Tebow (system QB)

2010 Junior Class
Sam Bradford (system QB)
Jevon Snead (I actually like Snead)


How irresponsible not to actually watch the quarterback and his skills himself. Especially when the offense Sam Bradford runs, is ran in the NFL. That makes the spread a Pro style offense. You ever watch the Saints?


The difference is in the pros QB's actually have to make there own calls and read from the line of scrimmage. These gimiky spread offenses have the coach call in audibles and reads form sideline with the best example being Bradford. The majority of the time Tebow has to make one read and he also has poor mechanics. 75% of Colt McCoy's throws are screen throws inflating his numbers. Overwhelming quarterbacks who come from these gimiky schemes fail at the next level.


February 12th, 2009, 4:22 pm
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Quote:
75% of Colt McCoy's throws are screen throws inflating his numbers.


Are you serious? This couldn't be further from the truth. Do you want people to take you seriously? Smearing prospects doesn't give you any credibility.

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February 12th, 2009, 5:57 pm
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Stallion wrote:
dh86 wrote:
Stallion wrote:
I don't understand how people are syaing how bad this QB class is compared to next years QB class.

I feel Stafford and Freeman are better then the seniors coming out next year.

2010 Senior Class
Colt McCoy (system QB)
Tim Tebow (system QB)

2010 Junior Class
Sam Bradford (system QB)
Jevon Snead (I actually like Snead)


How irresponsible not to actually watch the quarterback and his skills himself. Especially when the offense Sam Bradford runs, is ran in the NFL. That makes the spread a Pro style offense. You ever watch the Saints?


The difference is in the pros QB's actually have to make there own calls and read from the line of scrimmage. These gimiky spread offenses have the coach call in audibles and reads form sideline with the best example being Bradford. The majority of the time Tebow has to make one read and he also has poor mechanics. 75% of Colt McCoy's throws are screen throws inflating his numbers. Overwhelming quarterbacks who come from these gimiky schemes fail at the next level.


Now you are throwing out made up stats. Would you call 2007's Patriots and Packers offenses gimmicky? Or effective offenses that worked? There are QBs across the board that pass and fail. There are spread offenses that have flourished and became great pros and those that have not. The same with your "conventional offenses".


February 12th, 2009, 6:16 pm
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Ive seen a list that said that Brian Hoyer is the 5th rated QB prospect in this draft. He was one of the worst big college starting QBs ive ever seen.


February 12th, 2009, 6:18 pm
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This argument is why I say as nice as it is to watch highlights you have to actually watch the games. Freeman took a major step back this season after looking like a young up and comer during last season. Yes he lost Jordy Nelson but his decision making was poor in the four games I saw him. He frequently missed pre-snap reads and didn't get it to the hot route receiver, while also making poor throws to wide open receivers. Stafford as well as every other QB did the same thing but it was a little disturbing to the abundance of bad decisions by Freeman. As far as Stafford throwing from the shotgun in his highlights if you look at them closely at the tiem and downs of the plays most are 2nd and long, 3rd down throws, and/or two minute offenses.

I am all for a trade back but I don't see it happening and they as well as the fans are in catch 22. If they pass on Stafford and he becomes a franchise caliber QB they get laughed at and if they take him and he never pans out they again get laughed at. The reason I like Stafford of all the top rated QBs this year is that he made plays and that is what the Lions have lacked at the QB position about as far back as I can remember. This year out of his completions nearly 78% of those completions went for a 1st down or TD. The guy has the ability to move the ball and with some coaching from a guy like Linehan he has the potential to be a solid QB that can make a clutch play when it's needed.

I just can't justify LT with the depth being as solid as it appears to be and with Linehan saying he likes Backus (ughh). Curry is one the most well rounded LBs I've seen in awhile. But at #1 anything less than a "wow" player at LB and he will never live up to the expectations of going that high. I can't see Raji going that high with his past issues of being motivated and stamina issues. Orakpo is nice but will he ever be a Peppers, Freeney, or Williams DE worthy of that high of a pick? And will his knees hold up? Is Everette Brown going to be stout enough to handle NFL OTs? Right now the only other guy I think about at #1 is Malcolm Jenkins and there just wan't enough of him to see in college (teams avoided him) to know if he's that much better then waiting for a Smith, Moore, Butler, etc..

So as I see it now there are three guys that will likely pass the eye test, have the physical tools they are looking for, fill a need, and also do well in the interview process for that #1 spot. That is Stafford at QB, Jenkins at CB, and Curry at LB. The only reason I consider Curry a contender is that he wants to be the best and bust his tail to try and achieve it. If you listen to him and his coaches talk you just know he doesn't hold anything back. I was however disappointed he passed on the Senior Bowl. I'll throw Monroe in as wild card if they plan to play him OG for a year or two and then slide him over to replace Backus.


February 12th, 2009, 8:28 pm
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dh86 wrote:
Ive seen a list that said that Brian Hoyer is the 5th rated QB prospect in this draft. He was one of the worst big college starting QBs ive ever seen.


I too have seen his name mentioned as such. He is praised for his intangibles and for being a leader. To me, he represents a below average QB, and one of the worst coaching decisions I've ever seen. Hoyer was not even the best passer on his team. He would play terribly for several series, then Cousins would come in and pass far more effectively, only to be replaced by Hoyer again the next series. Cousins throws a better, more accurate ball, and is vastly superior on the stat line:

Quote:
Brian Hoyer:
2008: 180/353 for 2404 yards. 51.0% completions. 9 TDs and 9 INTs. Rating of 111.51


Quote:
Kirk Cousins:
2008: 32/ 43 for 310 yards. 74.4% completions. 2 TDs and 1 INT. Rating of 145.67


Brian Hoyer should go undrafted. He is not NFL quality. Sometimes players are overrated, and this is a prime example. Frankly, his play on the field looked worse than the stats portray.

Quote:
I think it's funny that so many people here have fallen in love with Josh Freeman's big size, and big arm, but haven't watched him really play. Maybe just the highlights. But I've spoken to people who watch Big 12 football and they all say they can not believe he's being spoken of as a First Round QB. According to them, he's wildly inconsistent, not accurate, just a "bad QB." Their words not mine.


HB, I am one of those people. It's not just the arm and size, but the stats relative to Stafford. You have a guy quarterbacking a 5 win Kansas State team- he could have a great year and still be overlooked on such a bad team. Over the course of a season, the quality of a quarterback's play will be reflected on the stats sheet. Freeman and Stafford are not dis-similar in statistical evaluation. Stafford threw for 25 TDs/10 INTs. Freeman went for 20 TDs/8 INTs. That is an identical ratio. Stafford threw 61.4% completions vs Freeman's 58.6. However, in 2007, Freeman exceeded Stafford's 55.7% mark with a respectable 63.3%. Stafford's ratings have went from 109 to 129 to 154 over 3 years. Freeman went from 103 to 127 to 136 over the same years.

I won't argue that KSU football is not bad football. I won't argue that the SEC boasts better overall defense, nor should you contend that Freeman plays on a roster devoid of talent. There are some aspects of these situations that are not comparable. The effect of quality of one's own team vs quality of opponents is not accurately quantifiable. I will state, and can support with facts (stats), that despite your friend's opinion- watching Freeman vs Stafford- you'd be seeing very similar performances on the field.

-ILMP


February 12th, 2009, 10:26 pm
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Stafford isn't really the ideal measuring stick. Stats are one thing. But IMO film study trumps all. You use stats to see if they meet the prerequisites: 2:1 TD/Int ratio / 60% Accuracy / College Starts.

I will trust someone who has seen, not just the highlights, but the bad that goes with it, more than someone who has not seen him and spews off his stat line. Unfortunately for Freeman, the bad happens way too much. If stat lines are all that matter, why aren't we talking about Mike Reilly? Or Graham Harrell?

Quote:
he could have a great year and still be overlooked on such a bad team.


This is not true. He was big on everybody's radar before this past season. They were waiting for him to step up so they could annoint him the next Joe Flacco. Jay Cutler was on a bad team, but was able to step up in spite of it.

Quote:
watching Freeman vs Stafford- you'd be seeing very similar performances on the field.


Come on ILMP. Even though I'm on the side of strongly advocating against Stafford at the first pick for the time being, even I know that Freeman is clearly.... clearly... the inferior quarterback. And it's not even close.

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February 12th, 2009, 11:16 pm
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Quote:
Come on ILMP. Even though I'm on the side of strongly advocating against Stafford at the first pick for the time being, even I know that Freeman is clearly.... clearly... the inferior quarterback. And it's not even close.


And now I'm pretty sure you are overstating. We're talking about two prospects graded in the top round. One is rated at 90 and the other at 97, by the source you posted. I'm not sure how you can say they are 'not even close' considering the nature of predicting NFL success between first round picks in any given year.

I'm talking about averages here. If you watched both quarterbacks all year long, you would have seen two quarterbacks throw about 380 passes and complete about 230 of them. You'd have seen Stafford throw for an average of 1.32 yards more per attempt. You'd have seen each QB throw for 20 touchdowns and also proportionally the same number of interceptions. You'd have seen a long pass play of 77 yards from one, and 78 from another. They may be just numbers, but they are representative of an entire season's play.

Do you want to know the biggest reason Stafford is the better prospect? IMO, it is because of Georgia's defense. KSU lost 5 games where they gave up 40 points or more. Georgia lost every game where they gave up 40 points also. If KSU had a defense, perhaps they'd have won 10 games instead of 5, and Freeman would have been on the field a whole lot more. His stats, TD's and yards would all exceed Staffords numbers, making Stafford look like the #2 guy. Georgia's defense put Stafford in position to perform better.

Graham Harrell is a Mike Leach product, not a legit NFL QB. Reilly has crap mechanics. Freeman and Stafford are very similar prospects. Relevance?

-ILMP


February 13th, 2009, 2:18 am
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Like I said, Stafford isn't exactly the greatests benchmark. Your trying to tell me, a guy who I think is overrated for the first overall pick, is essentially the same as I guy who a think is overrated for the 33rd overall pick.

What I do have to take issue is this:

Quote:
If you watched both quarterbacks all year long, you would have seen two quarterbacks throw about 380 passes and complete about 230 of them.


Can you honestly tell me you've watched both quarterbacks all year long? If you didn't, you don't have the complete picture. I will tell you right now, that even though you can rationalize similar looking stat lines, not all throws are equal. You said it yourself about Graham Harrell. He makes a bunch of short passes and lets his receivers get YAC. You don't know the whole story looking at the stat lines. So unless you can honestly say you've watched games of Freeman play, I don't see how you can rationalize that he's the better player just by looking at stats. The one thing in common that happens when people do actually see them play, is that Freeman is head a shoulders below Stafford. That Freeman, is in no way shape or form on the same level as Stafford. You're taking it to another level, with your Freeman is better than Stafford argument with your what if scenarios.

And while we're on the subject of seeing players, have you seen Mike Reilly? I mean, maybe you have. Maybe you live in Washington where you've seen a small college like Central Washington play. But if not, who are you to say he has crap mechanics? I haven't seen him play, but that's not exactly what I've heard of him.

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February 13th, 2009, 6:17 am
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Honolulu_Blue wrote:
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75% of Colt McCoy's throws are screen throws inflating his numbers.


Are you serious? This couldn't be further from the truth. Do you want people to take you seriously? Smearing prospects doesn't give you any credibility.


In texas offense almost all the throws are WR screens and other underneath routes.


February 13th, 2009, 9:27 am
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Stallion wrote:
Honolulu_Blue wrote:
Quote:
75% of Colt McCoy's throws are screen throws inflating his numbers.


Are you serious? This couldn't be further from the truth. Do you want people to take you seriously? Smearing prospects doesn't give you any credibility.


In texas offense almost all the throws are WR screens and other underneath routes.


Do you even watch Texas football? That is not the majority of the throws, and also... Texas takes what the defense gives them.. if it's the underneath stuff and screens so be it... they will not throw the ball deep when they know it's not there. Now, like all teams do.. they will throw it deep to keep teams honest.

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February 13th, 2009, 12:51 pm
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