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 2010 draft 
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Leo wrote:
My opinion if the Lions stay at #2 they will simply draft the best available offensive or defensive lineman.

Which means they will be looking at Ndamukong Suh, Gerald McCoy, Derrick Morgan or Russell Okung.

I really think unless the Lions can win a game and draft lower Berry and Haden are not really going to part of the discussions.


Leo, absolutely agree with you on BPA. I think the Lions demonstrated that was there philosophy in last years draft. After today's final scores, it seems as though we will be picking #2 no matter what happens next weekend. At that spot I'm hoping the Lions will get Suh or McCoy. I would be happy with either because it's huge upgrade over the current players. As far as the secondary is concerned, I'm hoping that will be addressed at some point in the following rounds. There will be some CB's still there in rounds 2 thru 4. As for Safeties, I don't think that's as big a need as CB. I've watched Tenn. and USC play several times this season but the most impressive Safety play I have seen this year, I am witnessing right now for Clemson. DeAndre McDaniel (#2, 6-0, 200)


December 27th, 2009, 11:51 pm
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I think most will agree that the biggest holes on our team now are cover corners and a premium pass rusher.

Need based drafting puts DE's and CB's front and center, like Morgan, Dunlap and Haden.

BPA based drafting at 2 is:
1) Suh
2) McCoy/Berry/Okung
3) Haden/Morgan/Dunlap

Unfortunately BPA and Need doesn't quite aline for the lions.

But no matter, Suh is an amazing prospect that will provide an interior pass rush. I'm not so high on Berry. For someone whose touted as the next Ed Reed you'd think he'd have more than 2 interceptions this year. The tape on him does not give you that impression either. Suh, you absolutely know who's the best player on the field when you watch a Nebraska game.

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December 28th, 2009, 8:32 am
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The fact that Suh went from a consensus top 5 pick, and battling McCoy for best DT, to once-in-a-decade-can't-miss-will-dominate-everyone player based largely on his performance against Texas makes me nervous. Did he have a monster game, absolutely. 4 ½ of his 12 sacks and 7 of his 23 tackles for a loss came in that game. 7 sacks and 12 tackles for loss have come in the last three games.

Think about that for a second. A third of his production came in one game. Half in the last three.

A quick check of scouting reports shows OT Adam Ulatoski, OG Charlie Tanner, and C Chris Hall as Texas' OL draft hopefuls for this year. I haven't seen anyone project any of them going in the first four rounds. His other two “dominant” late season games were against Colorado and Kansas State. Again, no highly rated Olinemen. As far as that goes, I don't think he played against any of the top Senior or Junior guards or centers all year.

Is Suh a good player? Yes. Does he deserve to go in the top 10? Yes. Is he the world beater that some are making him out to be? I haven't seen it. I've seen him dominate underclassmen and marginally talented upperclassmen. Is he worth a $8M per year contract (or whatever it is a #2 pick gets)? I've seen nothing that convinces me that he will consistently collapse the pocket at the pro level. If he can't, and odds are that he won't, Suh's not worth that kind of money. A space eating DT can be had at a fraction of the cost.

In our defensive scheme, I see him being a solid run stopper getting 30 – 40 tackles and 3 – 4 sacks per year. A good player, but not the game changer a #2 pick needs to be. With as much as he's being hyped, he'll be declared a bust in three years.


December 28th, 2009, 9:30 am
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I find it disturbing that suh has more passes defensed than the "next Ed Reed."

Competition is a factor, but I think downplaying Suh because of who he played is overrated. If that's the case, why the heck did we draft Delmas and Sammie Lee Hill? Actually, the fact that he showed up biggest in the most important game of his career (Big 12 Championship game vs. No. 2/1 team in the country), is an even bigger positive. I think when it comes to the Senior Bowl and other all-star games (should he choose to actually participate), I won't be surprised to see him dominate the 'best' sr's in the countr.

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December 28th, 2009, 9:35 am
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To be fair Lurker, Stuart was on the top of the list before that game.

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December 28th, 2009, 10:12 am
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Lurker09 wrote:
The problem with the Lion's run defense hasn't been the defensive tackles. The biggest problems have been the lack of containment by the corners and poor tackling by the back seven. Suh wouldn't help there, while Berry would help cut down on the big plays.


Just wanted to clear something up here. In Schwartz's defense, the DEs have the primary responsibility for outside containment, not the CBs. You might be thinking of Marinelli's Tampon 2 defense instead. Of course, the CBs still play a role in containment and an upgrade at the position would certainly help the situation.

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December 28th, 2009, 1:45 pm
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With Suh, I see...

The next Shaun Rogers, without the prima-donna act and more stamina.

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December 28th, 2009, 2:57 pm
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conversion02 wrote:
With Suh, I see...

The next Shaun Rogers, without the prima-donna act and more stamina.


I think that's because that's what you want to see... Everyone LOVES to compare college players to an NFL player and remove some, if not all, of the negatives of the NFL player. I.E. Stafford is Brett Favre, hopefully without the attitude and with better decision making...

It's almost natural to "hope" or "think" that, but you really can't tell until he gets here for 5 years. S. Rog. wasn't a premadonna when he was picked in the 2nd round. He didn't turn into a premadonna until his second or third contract.

IMO every big man in the league has "stamina" issues and takes plays off. I have no problem with someone that weighs close to 350 coming out every once in a while. If they're not coming out once in a while, they're probably not giving it all when the ARE actually in the game.


December 28th, 2009, 3:16 pm
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One big difference between Rogers and Suh was SRog was about 20 lbs heavier coming out of college. Like Rogers, he also has that knack for blocking kicks on STs.

I've watched a bunch of his games living in Big 12 country. And while his sacks are nice, he gets a ton of pressure on the QB on other plays as well (26 QB hurries this year). He is also double teamed a lot and still making plays.

The things that impress me the most is the strength of his hands and his awareness on the field (something hard to measure).

The game I watched the closest was the OU game because I got to focus on both him and McCoy (both #93) and IMO he was clearly the more dominant player.

Dudes a beast and if he is available at #2 and the Lions can't trade back (which they probably won't be able to) they need to take him.

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December 28th, 2009, 4:10 pm
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Honolulu_Blue wrote:
I find it disturbing that suh has more passes defensed than the "next Ed Reed."

Competition is a factor, but I think downplaying Suh because of who he played is overrated. If that's the case, why the heck did we draft Delmas and Sammie Lee Hill? Actually, the fact that he showed up biggest in the most important game of his career (Big 12 Championship game vs. No. 2/1 team in the country), is an even bigger positive. I think when it comes to the Senior Bowl and other all-star games (should he choose to actually participate), I won't be surprised to see him dominate the 'best' sr's in the countr.


Well said!

Draft Suh!

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December 28th, 2009, 4:20 pm
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Honolulu_Blue wrote:
Competition is a factor, but I think downplaying Suh because of who he played is overrated. If that's the case, why the heck did we draft Delmas and Sammie Lee Hill? Actually, the fact that he showed up biggest in the most important game of his career (Big 12 Championship game vs. No. 2/1 team in the country), is an even bigger positive. I think when it comes to the Senior Bowl and other all-star games (should he choose to actually participate), I won't be surprised to see him dominate the 'best' sr's in the countr.


That's pretty much the point of my last post. Most every one seems to have all ready decided that he will be dominate. Can we at least wait until the combine, or he dominates at the Senior Bowl, before everyone ordains him as the only acceptable option if we can't trade down? If he tears it up at the Senior Bowl, I'm on board with taking him. Until then, I'm not guzzling the kool aid.

My contention is that Suh isn't a once in a lifetime player, rather that he has reached his full potential early (e.g. Chris Long) along with not playing against the college elite. Please note, in a previous post I stated that I won't complain if we do draft him. (If we draft him, Schwartz has deemed him worthy... good enough for me). I don't think he's a bad player, I just don't see him as the only option at this point. Heck, I've even projected him to have stats similar to Haynesworth when he was with Tennessee! The difference is that Haynesworth had a supporting cast to take advantage of the double teams he draws.

Those projections also happen to be in line with virtually every DT drafted in the top 10 for the past 15 years. How many of those players would you consider worthy of a #2 pick? Gerard Warren perhaps?

Suh would be coming to a historically bad team with a historically bad defense. I happen to think that a safety has a better chance to make more impact plays under those conditions than a DT does. Interestingly most players who became elite, game changing DTs were not deemed worthy of a top eight pick. Kevin Williams, #9; John Henderson, #9, Warren Sapp, #12; Haynesworth, #15, Shaun Rogers, #61. I think that suggests that a DT can't dominate on his own.

Mean while, our inability to tackle increases the value of a player who can make tackles in the open field. Same with our inability to cover. The fact that opposing QBs can throw at will gives a safety more chances to make a play on the ball. The potential for Berry to score defensive points is an added bonus. On top of that, IMO, it's easier to scheme around one DT than it is to scheme around two good safety's. What are other teams going to do... not throw deep? Not run through poor tackling by the corners and linebackers? I see Delmas and Berry combining to limit the damage (or at least slow the bleeding) enough for us to compete. I don't see Suh, or McCoy, having that kind of effect with our supporting cast. In the short term, they would most likely be a minor upgrade or Grady and apply some, but not enough, pressure up the middle. Sure, we could take a safety in the second... at the expense of drafting a DE, CB, or OG.

If Suh isn't superman, I see us continuing to sign mediocre free agents and drafting top five players (with their huge contracts) for a least a year or two more while we draft or develop that supporting cast. Is Berry (or anyone else) a lock to break us out of the cycle-of-suckiness faster than Suh? Nope, but at least consider the possibility this early in the draft process.

Disclaimer: the above is not intended as a personal attack against anyone... just a general rant. Everyone can go back to drinking the Suh kool aid now.

slybri19 wrote:
Just wanted to clear something up here. In Schwartz's defense, the DEs have the primary responsibility for outside containment, not the CBs. You might be thinking of Marinelli's Tampon 2 defense instead. Of course, the CBs still play a role in containment and an upgrade at the position would certainly help the situation.


Correct. Meant to say poor outside run support by the corners. :oops: Anyway, I'll stand by the claim that the main problem with our run defense is not the current DTs. Could they be upgraded, sure. IMO, players that don't over pursue, take bad angles, and/or tackle like little girls would help more.


December 28th, 2009, 4:41 pm
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DLurker, you do make several great points.

First i agree DT is not the weakest part of our D. The secondary is the worst in the league. Only one is more than some random castoffs or scrub off the street. It is a miracle every team doesn't score 10 TDs a game against or obviously barely better than a MAC level secondary.

I also agree that our tackling us terrible and we MUST get people in here that can tackle. It also increases the value of someone who does tackle well.

But whether Suh is a once and a lifetime Guy or not right now is conjecture from either position. I think it surely seems like it from what we've seen so far, which is all we can go off of. Yes, the senior bowl and combine assure or kill the thought. But for right now, food looks like a beast.

But you brought up the best point, is he just matured and peaked? Great point! That is hopefully what the combine can tell us. He surely has the ability to get bigger for the next level.

But about the coolaid... the only fans left are coolaid drinkers. Besides those too drunk to know better(wags), too busy with young kids to realize the lions suck(Pablo),gay(sly), busy working and living life in Cali(me)... everyone else is hooked up to a coolaid drip bag. Only people left who care about the lions. B unch of people with serious issues. So coolaid or not, this guy WILL be the one to turn the Lions around and you won't convince us otherwise... just like joey, roy, k smith, rogers, etc were that guy... and you change our jacked up minds ;)

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December 28th, 2009, 9:12 pm
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To the best of my knowledge there hasn't been a DT picked as high as #2 overall in a draft since Dan Wilkinson was picked #1 overall in 1994.

Other noteables include:
Corey Simon #6 overall 2000
Gerard Warren #3 overall 2001
Ryan Sims #6 overall 2002
Dewayne Robertson #4 overall 2003
Glen Dorsey #5 overall 2008


Some teams (I believe KC is one of them) even picked DT twice in the first round multiple times within a 4-5 year span, and it didn't help them turn it around.


I agree with lurker... I think a CB or FS would help this team more than a DT. I also think that a DE would help this team more than a DT. I really don't think that our DT's are all that bad....


Suh might turn out to be a great player, he might turn out to be a bust. Like I said, last year Curry was the "can't miss" prospect, and he seems to have... well... missed...


Most people thought that the above 6 DT's were can't miss, and many thought that Dan Wilkinson was the 2nd coming. Many of them have had decent careers, but which of them are honestly impact players that have turned around a franchise?


I think many on here are getting caught up in the corn bread, kool-ade and hype surrounding Suh... This draft isn't Suh or bust. This draft is just like any other draft, it is about improving the team. IMO there are better ways to do it than by spending $50+ million dollars on one DT.


December 28th, 2009, 9:34 pm
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Let me make a couple of points here:

1. There is simply no player available in this coming draft that plays secondary worthy of a top five pick....not even Eric Berry. He's not worth that high of a pick, particularly second overall.

2. Ndamukong Suh, if my information is correct, didn't start playing football until his senior year of high school. As such, I don't see him as having "matured" and "reached his peak". Even if he was playing football before HS, I doubt he has reached his zenith of playing ability.

3. If the Rams do pick first, and they do take Suh, then I am hoping the Lions take Gerald McCoy. I think he is really the second best player in this draft, regardless of position. Better than Okung, better than Berry, better than any other player.

4. While the Lions may not having "pressing" needs at DT, getting a dynamic interior pass rusher to team with SL Hill will make for a very good start at rebuilding a defensive line. I would love to see the Lions add a DE in the second or third round as well. I haven't given up on Avril, and I think Hunter has shown some potential as well. But getting a CB high in this draft MUST be a priority as well, if only to develop for next year.

5. I wouldn't mind seeing the Lions spend higher than a fifth round pick on a quality OG. Second round may be too high, given all our other needs. But if Iupati is there at 34, I'd be hard pressed at this point to argue with Mayhew if that is the pick.

My belated Lions Christmas wish list for the draft is (in order of priority):
1. Quality CB
2. Quality OG
3. Starting DT
4. Pass Rushing DE
5. #2 WR (get rid of Bryant Johnson)
6. #2 CB
7. Another safety
8. Depth everywhere


December 28th, 2009, 10:30 pm
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m2karateman wrote:
There is simply no player available in this coming draft that plays secondary worthy of a top five pick....not even Eric Berry. He's not worth that high of a pick, particularly second overall.


I agree with that 100%. I'm not saying that we should draft a CB, SS, or DE with the #2 overall pick, I'm just saying that I think people are going overboard with this "Suhperbowl"... or this "Suh is our saviour" crap. People make it sound like he's going to stop the run, get more pressure on the Qb, take pressure off of the DE's making them better, by getting more pressure on the Qb improve our secondary, and BOOM... It's all going to be better on the defensive side of the ball... And all for the low low price of about $60 million dollars...

That's hardly the case (aside from the price tag). That said, if we're stuck at #2 overall, barring some dramatic rise on the draft charts, we have to take him because there isn't a DE, CB or SS on the board ranked that high. I would, however, rather trade down (even though I was called crazy for it earlier, because Suh is such a "can't miss" prospect, and a "once in a decade player" :roll: ), and pick up a Taylor Mays or Morgan somewhere in the 4-13 range.

Do you guys realize that if we pick #2 overall that we're going to have CJ, Stafford and Suh all with approximately $50-$60 million dollar contracts? That isn't how you build a football team. That is a very small collection of very talented individuals... I doubt it will win us many games...


December 29th, 2009, 12:11 am
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