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 Russel Okung 
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Topweasel wrote:
steensn wrote:
I wouldn't expect them to visit him otherwise. They are supposed to check out ALL the top players and then decide on who they think the best talent is. I would never take outside opinion on the talent level who didn't have a vested interest in making sure I made the right decision.

Also, I think this applies to everyone BUT Al Davis. He should always take outside advise and never his own...


Well not only do you want to make sure you have the #1 guy at your pick but you need to have a good feeling for any player picked 10-15 picks back just in case you see an opportunity to move back and still have a guy you really like for the team.


Very true

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March 16th, 2010, 10:57 am
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I tell ya, im not as high on Okung as i was with Thomas or Long, but the more i watch this guy, the more I like him. I think he could be a nice fit here in Detroit. Im like 99% for drafting Suh, but the more I hear reasons of why drafting Okung could help our Stafford, Johnson..etc, the more i almost support drafting Okung. Almost.

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April 6th, 2010, 5:13 pm
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While I really want Suh, I'm kinda thinking the that Okung could be the pick at the end of the day, especially with all the talent at DT in this draft. You have guys like Brian Price, Geno Atkins, Tyson Aluala that could actually fall into the 2nd - 3rd in some cases. Could they wait and get a decent DT? I think they can and I think they will.

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April 6th, 2010, 9:54 pm
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^ Pretty bold statement. I do think that it makes sense to take Okung under the circumstances that the Lions will face Julius Peppers, Clay Matthews, and Jared Allen 6 times a year. If you spend $72 million on a QB you might want to give him some protection.

Is he Jake Long or Joe Thomas? No, but if he's the best OT in the draft then you may have to take him. I know Mayhew is a talent first or bpa type of guy, but I just have a hard time thinking that Jeff Backus will be able to hold up against all the good pass rushers in the league.

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April 9th, 2010, 1:49 pm
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TNLionsFanatic wrote:
While I really want Suh, I'm kinda thinking the that Okung could be the pick at the end of the day, especially with all the talent at DT in this draft. You have guys like Brian Price, Geno Atkins, Tyson Aluala that could actually fall into the 2nd - 3rd in some cases. Could they wait and get a decent DT? I think they can and I think they will.


I agree, gotta protect that investment

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April 9th, 2010, 3:06 pm
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When the talk of drafting LT started, the thought was that Backus would slide in to play LG. With Sims now penciled in at LG, I think Backus is staying put at LT. I wouldn't quibble with drafting a LT at #2 but the Lions' company motto for the past year has been: "we're not good enough to pass on talent." I think there are more talented players than Okung so I'll be a bit surprised if he is the choice at #2.

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April 9th, 2010, 3:13 pm
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mwill2 wrote:
When the talk of drafting LT started, the thought was that Backus would slide in to play LG. With Sims now penciled in at LG, I think Backus is staying put at LT. I wouldn't quibble with drafting a LT at #2 but the Lions' company motto for the past year has been: "we're not good enough to pass on talent." I think there are more talented players than Okung so I'll be a bit surprised if he is the choice at #2.


Exactly. I think the Lions bringing in Okung and Trent Williams is them doing their due diligence, more so than an indication that they feel they'll take a LT at number 2.

Detroit has to be prepared to get phone calls for the number two pick, particulary if St. Louis shocks everyone and doesn't take Bradford. If some team comes calling with a deal fit for a king, then the Lions have to know who may be available at what position they trade down to.

But if they stay put, passing on Suh would be completely against their mantra of BPA during the draft. It would also make Schwartz look like a complete idiot after the diatribe he put forth after the season on how Backus should have been considered for All Pro status. Why pick an offensive tackle at number two, bypassing two or three players considered to be superior in their talent level, if you have such a "great" left tackle to begin with?


April 9th, 2010, 3:22 pm
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The Lions went against their BPA mantra last year when they took Stafford over Curry. Anybody still complaining about that one?

When it comes to the top of the draft it's all about value and LT if far more valuable the DT. That's why there has only been 3 DTs taken in the top 5 in the last 12 years and none as high as #2. While 12 OT have in that same time with 5 of them going 2 or higher.

Signing Sims doesn't change anything if it did than trading for Corey Williams would have already taken DT off the draft board considering he's already one of higher paid DT in the league and is signed for 4 more years.

Then consider that he plays the same position as Suh your looking at $19 DT rotation? Seriously, are going to have 2 of highest paid players only on the field during passing situations? I'm not even sure Suh fits the Lions defense they seem to favor DT in the 320 if not 340 range.

So do I think Okung is the pick? Could just as easily be Trent Williams. Either way I do believe the Lions are looking LT at #2 the only way they take a DT is they decide that neither LT is worth it.

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April 9th, 2010, 6:41 pm
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Leo wrote:
The Lions went against their BPA mantra last year when they took Stafford over Curry. Anybody still complaining about that one?


Perhaps you weren't listening to Mayhew and Schwartz. According to them, Stafford was THE top player on the Lions board last year regardless of position, not Curry. Do I believe them? Actually, at this point, yes.

Leo wrote:
When it comes to the top of the draft it's all about value and LT if far more valuable the DT. That's why there has only been 3 DTs taken in the top 5 in the last 12 years and none as high as #2. While 12 OT have in that same time with 5 of them going 2 or higher.


Part of that reasoning is that there haven't been any DTs as dominating as McCoy or Suh. And it's not like this years class of OTs is stellar. Just because a LT gets paid more than a DT on a natural basis, does not mean you draft the OT and hope he lives up to the money. I'd rather the Lions drafted a DT they truly believed was special, over a LT that they were apprehensive about. If they think Suh or McCoy are more talented, then you take them regardless. Based on what you are saying, the Lions should pick Jimmy Clausen then.
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Signing Sims doesn't change anything if it did than trading for Corey Williams would have already taken DT off the draft board considering he's already one of higher paid DT in the league and is signed for 4 more years.


Wrong. Why?
A. Because Sims plays guard, not offensive tackle.
B. Because offensive linemen are NOT platooned like defensive linemen are in the Lions defense.

Getting Corey Williams was about upgrading from who we currently had on the roster (Grady Jackson), who may have started last year, but was unlikely to see significant playing time this year if the Lions hadn't made the trade. Williams is a proven interior pass rusher, so he brings a different skill set than we had at the DT position. None of our DTs last season were capable pass rushers. At least now we know we have one.

Leo wrote:
Then consider that he plays the same position as Suh your looking at $19 DT rotation? Seriously, are going to have 2 of highest paid players only on the field during passing situations? I'm not even sure Suh fits the Lions defense they seem to favor DT in the 320 if not 340 range.


Suh plays bigger than he his. He was asked at Nebraska to hold the point of attack, read and react. McCoy was asked to penetrate and re-direct or rush the passer. He was not asked to hold the point of attack. Suh fits more of what the Lions want from their interior guys, that is to hold their ground and force the runner to change their paths, or to free up the blitzers to go after the QB. And in all likelihood, Suh will gain 10-15 pounds before he even takes the field for the Lions this season, which would put him at the same size as Williams.

Leo wrote:
So do I think Okung is the pick? Could just as easily be Trent Williams. Either way I do believe the Lions are looking LT at #2 the only way they take a DT is they decide that neither LT is worth it.


The question to ask yourself is this, how much more of an upgrade is the LT prospect over Backus than Suh would be at the DT spot? It MUST be taken into account that beyond Corey Williams, we don't have a DT that is getting paid all that much, or has the ability to rush the passer. And while I like Sammie Lee Hill, he has his limitations as well. He played well for a rookie fourth rounder, but he was hardly a dominant force.

But, with a LT pick, we would be paying Backus, Okung AND Cherilus all first round money.....that's much more significant than what is being spent at DT. And only two of those three will play. Backus likely won't displace Sims at LG....he'd likely displace Cherilus. And where does Cherilus go then? He doesn't have the skills to play guard effectively. He's not good in closed quarters, and Schwartz has even said as much.

My question is, if the Lions were convinced they were going to pick Okung or Trent Williams, why trade for Sims? I think that trade was far more telling than you are willing to admit/accept.


April 9th, 2010, 8:07 pm
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Leo wrote:
The Lions went against their BPA mantra last year when they took Stafford over Curry. Anybody still complaining about that one?

When it comes to the top of the draft it's all about value and LT if far more valuable the DT. That's why there has only been 3 DTs taken in the top 5 in the last 12 years and none as high as #2. While 12 OT have in that same time with 5 of them going 2 or higher.

Signing Sims doesn't change anything if it did than trading for Corey Williams would have already taken DT off the draft board considering he's already one of higher paid DT in the league and is signed for 4 more years.

Then consider that he plays the same position as Suh your looking at $19 DT rotation? Seriously, are going to have 2 of highest paid players only on the field during passing situations? I'm not even sure Suh fits the Lions defense they seem to favor DT in the 320 if not 340 range.

So do I think Okung is the pick? Could just as easily be Trent Williams. Either way I do believe the Lions are looking LT at #2 the only way they take a DT is they decide that neither LT is worth it.


Stafford may have been the highest rated on there board. If he wasn't, but was close, then QB trumps all. You have a point about the OT's. None of us know who the Lions have at the top of there board.


April 9th, 2010, 8:12 pm
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Perhaps you weren't listening to Mayhew and Schwartz. According to them, Stafford was THE top player on the Lions board last year regardless of position, not Curry. Do I believe them? Actually, at this point, yes.


In case you haven't been listening every coach and GM says that about every player they've ever drafted. Who's going to admit we drafted this player because of the money involved?

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Part of that reasoning is that there haven't been any DTs as dominating as McCoy or Suh.


Glenn Dorsey and Sedrick Ellis were both considered 2 of the best players in their draft. Some 'experts' had Dorsey listed as the top player and candidate to go #1 and Ellis #2. Don't believe me LOOK IT UP!!

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Because offensive linemen are NOT platooned like defensive linemen are in the Lions defense.


Suh and Williams will platoon at the same position? Both players are under tackles are you going to play one of the out position? Jackson was released because he was an overpayed aging disappointment who was outplayed by Sammie Hill.

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Suh plays bigger than he his.


It's easier to player bigger than you are in college it's a different thing where you actually need to be bigger than you are in the NFL. Suh played according to reports closer to 290 - he bulked up to 307 for the combine. More than likely he will lose some of that bulk before he puts more bulk on. Your just guessing he will get bigger that's a big if there.

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The question to ask yourself is this, how much more of an upgrade is the LT prospect over Backus than Suh would be at the DT spot?


That's not the question at all which is why you don't get it - it's about value or real word MONEY. A DT is not worth the $63-65 million you are going to have to pay the #2 pick. Even the Redskins are regretting giving Haynesworth $48 million (the real value of his contract). If a LT like D'Brickashaw Ferguson was actually allowed to become a free agent. Teams would be lining up to sign him to $60 million dollar contract because quality LT do not grow on trees that's why they are 2nd highest paid position behind QB.

The Lions might decide that Okung and Williams are not worth it and take Suh anyway but there is better chance he'll never live up to the money they will have to pay him to do that he would have to reach double digit sacks consistently. Which is way DE are highly paid if they can get to the QB consistently. It's more likely he will turn out to be the next Gerard Warren a steady but unspectacular DT who eventually got traded for never living up to his billing as the #3 pick.

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April 9th, 2010, 9:14 pm
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I think both of you have good points, but in my opinion, Id rather take the player thats got more potential to be a difference maker...which is Suh. If the top OT was someone like Jake Long or Joe Thomas, then Id reconsider who I think they should take. But I see Okung as an average-above average left tackle, and to me thats not worth spending the #2 pick on, regardless of VALUE.

And since we have Rob Sims, which improves the offensive line immediately, i dont see left tackle quite as much as a big need. I think we can get by this year, and then draft our LT next year.

Just my opinion.

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April 9th, 2010, 11:02 pm
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leos fighting a losing argument. his premise is fiscal responsibility as it pertains to the cap. which makes sense when you have to allocate money to various position groups. That's funny considering there is no cap to speak of. Okay so there likely will be one when a new CBA is negotiated. but before then teams will take advantage of the capless year and frontload the heck out of these contracts. that leaves the lions to pick who the best player is on their board. Okung is a pretty bland as far as LT prospects go. i'd be surprised if he were the pick.

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April 10th, 2010, 1:17 am
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Leo wrote:
In case you haven't been listening every coach and GM says that about every player they've ever drafted. Who's going to admit we drafted this player because of the money involved?


Tell me Leo, knowing what we know now, do you still consider Curry to be the better player than Stafford? If your answer is yes, then you are putting on blinders to make your point. If the answer is no, then everything Schwartz had to say is correct, and they knew more than most of us fans did. Simple as that.


Leo wrote:
Glenn Dorsey and Sedrick Ellis were both considered 2 of the best players in their draft. Some 'experts' had Dorsey listed as the top player and candidate to go #1 and Ellis #2. Don't believe me LOOK IT UP!!


Those guys were good, but neither were as dominant as Suh has been the past two seasons in college. Neither Dorsey nor Ellis have his motor, or ever had his motor. That's the big difference between Suh and those two. Both Dorsey and Ellis were seen as supremely talented, but both had some lingering questions about their inner drive.


Leo wrote:
Suh and Williams will platoon at the same position? Both players are under tackles are you going to play one of the out position? Jackson was released because he was an overpayed aging disappointment who was outplayed by Sammie Hill.


Depending on the situation the defense is facing, Williams could be lined up next to Suh, or could be simply giving Suh a breather. Williams is big enough to handle replacing Hill for a down or two, to give him a breather. Do you not watch Lions games and see the players being brought in and out? It happens on defense, but not on offense, and that was my point.


Leo wrote:
It's easier to player bigger than you are in college it's a different thing where you actually need to be bigger than you are in the NFL. Suh played according to reports closer to 290 - he bulked up to 307 for the combine. More than likely he will lose some of that bulk before he puts more bulk on. Your just guessing he will get bigger that's a big if there.


Guessing? Yes, but my guess is more of an educated guess. Let me explain. Suh has a very thick lower body, and stands 6'4". He can easily add another 20 pounds. On top of that, DTs around the 320 to 330 range are what the coaching staff wants. Andre Fluellen and Landon Cohen both added significant amounts of bulk AFTER Schwartz took over. Marinelli wanted them at about 285-295....but now they are both over 300 lbs. The staff will work with Suh for him to add solid weight, not sloppy weight. Once the two a days are done, he'll be able to bulk up since the practices at that point are about maintaining conditioning, not increasing conditioning.

Leo wrote:
That's not the question at all which is why you don't get it - it's about value or real word MONEY. A DT is not worth the $63-65 million you are going to have to pay the #2 pick. Even the Redskins are regretting giving Haynesworth $48 million (the real value of his contract). If a LT like D'Brickashaw Ferguson was actually allowed to become a free agent. Teams would be lining up to sign him to $60 million dollar contract because quality LT do not grow on trees that's why they are 2nd highest paid position behind QB.


First off, I understand your point. I just don't think it applies right now. Secondly, an OT paid that much money isn't "worth it" just because he's an OT. Was Mike Williams worth #4 money to the Buffalo Bills? Has Gosder Cherilus been worth #17 money for us? Even Ferguson has not been worth the money he's been paid, since he is a good starter, but certainly hasn't lived up to expectations. And that leads us to the whole Haynesworth argument. The Redskins regret paying him that much for two reasons. First, because he didn't live up to the contract because of how he played, not where he played. Secondly, they regret it NOW because they are switching to a 3-4 and he doesn't really fit that scheme. It isn't about the position he plays, it's about the level of play he demonstrated and their switch to a different defense only one year into that contract. I'll tell you this much...the Ravens took Haloti Ngata in the first round, and they don't regret paying him ANY of the money they put forth. Same goes for New England with Vince Wilfork. And while I understand those guys weren't taken 2nd overall, I'm sure looking back there are some teams out there that would have gladly used a second overall pick on any of those defensive tackles.

Leo wrote:
The Lions might decide that Okung and Williams are not worth it and take Suh anyway but there is better chance he'll never live up to the money they will have to pay him to do that he would have to reach double digit sacks consistently. Which is way DE are highly paid if they can get to the QB consistently. It's more likely he will turn out to be the next Gerard Warren a steady but unspectacular DT who eventually got traded for never living up to his billing as the #3 pick.


And that is the point I'm trying to make. Okung, Williams and Bulaga all are just not that dominating as left tackles. Okung may have had a good season, but I don't see him as being as talented as Michael Oher, let alone a Joe Thomas or Jake Long.

And you completely avoided my question about how much money we have tied into our current starting OTs, and what would happen if we picked up Okung or Williams at #2. We would then have three first round OTs, and one of them would have to sit on the bench. You would call that being fiscally responsible? With the Sims trade, the intention is for him to be a starter, and the Lions will give him every chance to do that at the LG spot. Peterman has the RG spot, and his contract will make him the incumbent. So.....who is the odd man out?


April 10th, 2010, 9:37 am
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Go ahead and burry your head in the sand - all I'm saying based on what I have seen I believe the Lions are going to target a left tackle on draft day. There is a lot of eveidence and history to support it. And aquiring Rob Sims doesn’t change that - I don’t know who would be the odd man out on the Lions OL. The bottomline nobody on the OL has contract that makes picking OT prohibative. (I still question how you expect to make Suh by far highest paid DT and Williams one of the 10 highest paid DT and basically rotate them at the same position.)

Your only real argument for drafting Suh is you believe that he is the BPA. He might be and I’m not arguing that point. But every year I hear this player is the best, the safest player in the draft and he gets passed over for value postion players at the top of the draft. I just don't see things changing until the collective bargaining agreement is fixed.

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April 10th, 2010, 10:26 am
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