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 Lions get 3 of the top ten bust of the past decade... 
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Post Lions get 3 of the top ten bust of the past decade...
Are we sure we don't deserve all 10?

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Ten ... ecade.html

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April 20th, 2010, 6:45 pm
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Post Re: Lions get 3 of the top ten bust of the past decade...
Perhaps my memory is failing, but was Harrington really that huge of a bust? He did manage to start a number of games over a couple seasons for the Lions. According to his Wikipedia entry, which seems to have a rather positive bias:

"Harrington was voted by Lions fans as their Offensive Player of the Year, according to the Lions' official website." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joey_Harrington

(I'm not sure what season this refers to.)

At least he got on the field and started 76 games for his career. I don't think it's his fault that he was drafted onto a horribly mismanaged football team which more or less ruined his career and really had no one to throw the ball to, at least not during his first two seasons. I'm not a Harrington apologist nor a Harrington fan. I just think he got a raw deal with the Lions and that it's wrong to label him as a huge bust.


April 20th, 2010, 7:54 pm
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Post Re: Lions get 3 of the top ten bust of the past decade...
Growler wrote:
Perhaps my memory is failing, but was Harrington really that huge of a bust? He did manage to start a number of games over a couple seasons for the Lions. According to his Wikipedia entry, which seems to have a rather positive bias:

"Harrington was voted by Lions fans as their Offensive Player of the Year, according to the Lions' official website." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joey_Harrington

(I'm not sure what season this refers to.)

At least he got on the field and started 76 games for his career. I don't think it's his fault that he was drafted onto a horribly mismanaged football team which more or less ruined his career and really had no one to throw the ball to, at least not during his first two seasons. I'm not a Harrington apologist nor a Harrington fan. I just think he got a raw deal with the Lions and that it's wrong to label him as a huge bust.

Harrington is absolutely a bust. Any player that is taken that high in the draft and doesn't turn into a stud is a bust. Blaming the organization or the situation is just an excuse. A truly elite player would still have become, at worst, a good player. Harrington never had what it took to be a good NFL QB. The way I look at it, if the situation could break him, then that just proves that he never had it in him to deserve his draft position.

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April 20th, 2010, 9:20 pm
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Post Re: Lions get 3 of the top ten bust of the past decade...
OK, I agree that he was a bust in that sense. But he wasn't completely worthless. He wasn't as big of a bust as, say, Ryan Leaf, Akili Smith, or JaMarcus Russell. I do wonder how he would have turned out if he had gotten his start with another team. If he could have walked into the situation Sanchez was drafted into, I wonder how he would have done.


April 20th, 2010, 9:49 pm
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Post Re: Lions get 3 of the top ten bust of the past decade...
Growler wrote:
OK, I agree that he was a bust in that sense. But he wasn't completely worthless. He wasn't as big of a bust as, say, Ryan Leaf, Akili Smith, or JaMarcus Russell. I do wonder how he would have turned out if he had gotten his start with another team. If he could have walked into the situation Sanchez was drafted into, I wonder how he would have done.

I think he is just as much of a bust as those guys. What has he done that's better? He some somewhat better stats? So what? He still didn't win games and hasn't been able to crack any lineups. A bad QB is a bad QB. It doesn't matter how bad. Once you're at the point that you're not even a quality backup, then you're bottom of the barrel.

As for him being in a different situation, I still say he would have had the same result. It may not have come as quickly, but he still wouldn't have made it. Good players are not made by their teams. They can have a good year or two, but eventually bad players are exposed. There's example after example of it. I can't think of any player who turned out well that you can say wasn't a good player.

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April 20th, 2010, 10:28 pm
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Post Re: Lions get 3 of the top ten bust of the past decade...
Wow, strong Joey hate.

I never thought he was that bad. Was he a "bust" sure, but he wasn't worthless. Is he really worse than David Carr? How about Mike Williams (taken 1 pick after him)? Alex Smith? Pacman? Troy Williamson? Michael Huff? Reggie Bush?


April 21st, 2010, 12:20 am
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Post Re: Lions get 3 of the top ten bust of the past decade...
Sven Draconian wrote:
Wow, strong Joey hate.

I never thought he was that bad. Was he a "bust" sure, but he wasn't worthless. Is he really worse than David Carr? How about Mike Williams (taken 1 pick after him)? Alex Smith? Pacman? Troy Williamson? Michael Huff? Reggie Bush?

I don't hate Joey. I don't hate anyone. I'm just a realist about people's abilities.

Yes he is absolutely worse than Carr, for the simple fact that Carr is still in the league as a backup, and Joey isn't. Carr is at least good enough to make a NFL roster, and Joey isn't. Plus you can compare their stats (and that is an apples to apples comparison since they were drafted the same year, both played for bad teams, etc).

Joey: 56.1% comp. 79 TD. 85 INT. 69.4 rating
Carr: 59.8% comp. 65 TD. 70 INT. 75.2 rating

By every measure, Carr is better than Joey. He's still a bust, but Joey is worse than Carr. As for all those other guys you mentioned, they are all busts as well (or at least big disappointments), with the exception of Reggie Bush. Bush hasn't lived up to his hype, but he is a productive player.

Face it, if Joey was on another team, there would be no question. Here's a good comparison

Rex Grossman: 54.0% comp. 33 TD. 34 INT. 69.5 rating
Brodie Croyle: 57.7 % comp. 8 TD. 8 INT. 70.6 rating
Tavaris Jackson: 58.7% comp. 21 TD. 18 INT. 77.9 rating

Each and every one of these guys is considered a bad QB/bust. Would you say any of them are "not that bad"? And yet, they are all equal to or better than Joey by every statistically significant measure. Like I said, if Joey wasn't a Lion, he'd be a bust and there'd be no conversation. Same thing as these guys.

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April 21st, 2010, 1:13 am
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Post Re: Lions get 3 of the top ten bust of the past decade...
Joey has been entertaining on his weekend radio show, so he does have that over the other busts.


April 21st, 2010, 4:01 am
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Post Re: Lions get 3 of the top ten bust of the past decade...
Growler wrote:
OK, I agree that he was a bust in that sense. But he wasn't completely worthless. He wasn't as big of a bust as, say, Ryan Leaf, Akili Smith, or JaMarcus Russell. I do wonder how he would have turned out if he had gotten his start with another team. If he could have walked into the situation Sanchez was drafted into, I wonder how he would have done.



I'm glad you mentioned Sanchez.

I watched ESPN for a while yesterday, and they were talking about the QBs in the draft. I think it was Trey Wingo who said, "Can any of these guys come in and have success immediately like Matt Ryan, Joe Flacco, or Mark Sanchez have in recent years?"

OK... Sanchez went 8-7 (missed 1 game) and then 2-1 in playoffs.
Sure. Winning helps.

BUT.....

So does having the #1 ranked defense in the NFL.
AND.... the #1 ranked rushing offense in the NFL.

In games when Sanchez threw 24+ passes, the Jets had a 2-6 record.
In games when Sanchez threw <24 passes, the Jets were 6-1.

Playoffs?

Same deal.

2-0 record when throwing <24 passes.
Was 0-1 when >24 passes.


He ended with a 53.8% completion rate, 12 TDs vs. 20 INTs, and a QB rating of only 63 all while playing behind a very good OL and benefitting from a very good rushing attack.

You could tell that the O.C. Brian Schotty also did a very good job of "managing" Sanchez by utilizing a lot of simple reads and easy throws (like Play-action bootlegs to drag routes in the flat).


The "role" of the defense?

The Jets did NOT win 1 game in which their opponent scored >17 points!!!

If the defense gave up >17 points in a game, the Jets lost! They were 0-6 in these games (including playoff loss).

Including the playoffs, the Jets won 10 games with Sanchez playing. Their opponents averaged only 9.5 points/game in those wins.

On the other hand.... how much did Sanchez "help" the Jets to a win?

Sanchez threw for >200 yards only 1 time out of those 10 wins.
And the Jets failed to score >17 points in 8 of his 18 games played.

I don't dislike Sanchez. I'm just sick of hearing that he is great because his TEAM won games last year.

Stafford played in 10 games in 2009.

The Lions allowed 23+ points in 8 of his 10 games.
In the 1 game ALL season they allowed <17 points, they won. Imagine that!
Sanchez went 2-6 when throwing 24+ passes, Stafford was 2-8.

YES, Stafford threw 26+ passes in EVERY game he played. And if he had not left the Bengals game due to his shoulder injury, he would have thrown >30 passes in every game. That is a lot to ask a rookie QB to do.

I'm sure this really doesn't surprise most of us here, but I just had to illustrate the MAGNITUDE of how different the situations were for Sanchez and Stafford. It really irks me when the media hypes up a guy who benefits from a good team around him and doesn't give the credit where it is most deserved.

I am not trying to make Stafford look good here, or make excuses for the losses. Only trying to show how Sanchez gets a lot of credit for play that was really not better than a QB from a 2 win team.


April 21st, 2010, 9:30 am
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Post Re: Lions get 3 of the top ten bust of the past decade...
I don't think there is any argument about whether or not Joey is a bust. He didn't win games, he couldn't complete passes, he didn't throw touchdown passes, he couldn't make a roster. He would only be in his 9th season this year if he didn't wash out of the league. How is that not a bust?

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April 21st, 2010, 11:10 am
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Post Re: Lions get 3 of the top ten bust of the past decade...
Touchdown Jesus wrote:
Sven Draconian wrote:
Wow, strong Joey hate.

I never thought he was that bad. Was he a "bust" sure, but he wasn't worthless. Is he really worse than David Carr? How about Mike Williams (taken 1 pick after him)? Alex Smith? Pacman? Troy Williamson? Michael Huff? Reggie Bush?

I don't hate Joey. I don't hate anyone. I'm just a realist about people's abilities.

Yes he is absolutely worse than Carr, for the simple fact that Carr is still in the league as a backup, and Joey isn't. Carr is at least good enough to make a NFL roster, and Joey isn't. Plus you can compare their stats (and that is an apples to apples comparison since they were drafted the same year, both played for bad teams, etc).

Joey: 56.1% comp. 79 TD. 85 INT. 69.4 rating
Carr: 59.8% comp. 65 TD. 70 INT. 75.2 rating

By every measure, Carr is better than Joey. He's still a bust, but Joey is worse than Carr. As for all those other guys you mentioned, they are all busts as well (or at least big disappointments), with the exception of Reggie Bush. Bush hasn't lived up to his hype, but he is a productive player.

Face it, if Joey was on another team, there would be no question. Here's a good comparison

Rex Grossman: 54.0% comp. 33 TD. 34 INT. 69.5 rating
Brodie Croyle: 57.7 % comp. 8 TD. 8 INT. 70.6 rating
Tavaris Jackson: 58.7% comp. 21 TD. 18 INT. 77.9 rating

Each and every one of these guys is considered a bad QB/bust. Would you say any of them are "not that bad"? And yet, they are all equal to or better than Joey by every statistically significant measure. Like I said, if Joey wasn't a Lion, he'd be a bust and there'd be no conversation. Same thing as these guys.


Did you even read the whole post? Of course not. I already said Joey was a bust (see where I said, was he a "bust" sure). The debate isn't whether he was a bust, it's if he is a top 10 bust in the last 10 years.

You bring up Carr as "better" than Joey. Alright, he has a few higher points in QB rating (boosted significantly since his first few years), but he was also drafted higher (#1 overall). Joey isn't in the league because he's sick of football, no biggie. Not because he's somehow worse than Drew Stanton, or whatever slap dick 3rd team QB you want to talk about.


As for your little list at the end..

No, Tavaris Jackson isn't that bad. Is he good? Absolutely not. But he has a positive TD/INT and a passable compleition percentage. He also wasn't a first round pick. Grossman is a bust, just like Joey.

Again, I never even claimed Joey was a "good" quarterback. But he isn't an all-time (or even, all-decade) bad QB. He had some decent seasons (not good, not average, decent enough), which puts him ahead of guys like Troy Williamson. Look at Alex Smith, who hasn't even been a consistant starter for as long as Joey was (and, again, was actually a #1 overall pick).


April 21st, 2010, 3:58 pm
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Post Re: Lions get 3 of the top ten bust of the past decade...
Did I just timewarp back to 2002-2005 or something?

{runs screaming out of the room}

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April 21st, 2010, 4:41 pm
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Post Re: Lions get 3 of the top ten bust of the past decade...
HAHA... this debate will last forever... but lets face it. He was a bust, he played well enough for us to have hope. He never progressed enough for that hope to manifest into actual production. He was a bust and we hung on for 4 years because it always seemed he was a step away from putting it together... which he NEVER did as shown on the teams he bounced around from. Are there worst bust, sure, but on a scale of hope to output... he's right at the top.

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April 21st, 2010, 4:45 pm
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