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 Various 2012 NFL Mock drafts. 
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Post Re: Various 2012 NFL Mock drafts.
For once I agree with Kiper's draft over... Well... Anyone else.

I can't see a DT going #1 overall, and I can't see us taking a "project" DE, as McShay predicts. I would prefer Fisher over Jones. Who do these guys see us starting at Lt? Backus?


February 7th, 2013, 1:29 pm
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Post Re: Various 2012 NFL Mock drafts.
I Dislike both of their picks. Supposedly Jones is starting to slip more towards 8-12 range than top 7, and Dion Jordan wasnt even amount the top 3-4 DEs afaik just weeks ago.

Bjorn Werner if we want a DE, Fisher/Joekel if we want an LT, Millner if available if we want a CB, and could even see Vacarro if he continues to Rise as a Safety with Ballhawk Coverage abilities. Not really interested in anyone outside of those 4 at #5. Obviously things will change with the combine/interviews/etc, but thats where I am at right now.


February 7th, 2013, 4:28 pm
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Post Re: Various 2012 NFL Mock drafts.
DJ-B wrote:
I Dislike both of their picks. Supposedly Jones is starting to slip more towards 8-12 range than top 7, and Dion Jordan wasnt even amount the top 3-4 DEs afaik just weeks ago.

Bjorn Werner if we want a DE, Fisher/Joekel if we want an LT, Millner if available if we want a CB, and could even see Vacarro if he continues to Rise as a Safety with Ballhawk Coverage abilities. Not really interested in anyone outside of those 4 at #5. Obviously things will change with the combine/interviews/etc, but thats where I am at right now.


My wish list for #5 is:

Joeckel
Fisher
Millner
DE - Warner I guess

I'm not sold on Warner. I think he'll be good, and I think he'll have a good NFL career, but I don't think he'll be great. He reminds me of Aaron Kampan, or Chris Long. Good motor, good work ethic, good athleticism, does everything "well," but nothing great.

Before you go spouting off about how good Chirs Long has played the last three years, remember his first 3 years... He averaged about 6 sacks a year. I don't think you take a "developmental" guy like that at #5 overall.

I'd rather take Ansah, Okafor, or Montgomery in Rd 2, or if there's a good CB available in Rd 2 (Rhodes/Banks... Maybe Poyer, but after his arrest I consider him a 3rd round pick)... I'd love to land one of the DE's I mentioned in 2 and Poyer in 3, but I think someone will take a chance on him in the 2nd.


February 7th, 2013, 5:25 pm
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Post Re: Various 2012 NFL Mock drafts.
I understand your point WJB, but I've been following Werner for a long time and I very much so believe he will be an upgrade over Avril and KVB.

Regardless, it all depends who is left on the board. If Joeckel is still there, you HAVE to take him. It's really quite simple. There's a lot of different opinions on what they should do if that isn't the case. I still say Werner because I'm very high on him, but that's just my opinion. Fisher would be intriguing too. I really wouldn't mind a trade back and he Vacarro then trade up and take Trufant or Warmack if he's still there.

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February 7th, 2013, 6:29 pm
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Post Re: Various 2012 NFL Mock drafts.
kdsberman wrote:
I understand your point WJB, but I've been following Werner for a long time and I very much so believe he will be an upgrade over Avril and KVB.

Regardless, it all depends who is left on the board. If Joeckel is still there, you HAVE to take him. It's really quite simple. There's a lot of different opinions on what they should do if that isn't the case. I still say Werner because I'm very high on him, but that's just my opinion. Fisher would be intriguing too. I really wouldn't mind a trade back and he Vacarro then trade up and take Trufant or Warmack if he's still there.


You really believe that Warner will have 11 sacks his rookie season?


February 7th, 2013, 6:58 pm
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Post Re: Various 2012 NFL Mock drafts.
If Schwartz and company ate insistent on sticking with the Wide 9 using a top pick on a DE unless he is an athletic freak is a waste in my opinion. I like Werner but the Wide 9 simplifies things for the DEs and relies on speed, anticipation, agility, and power. I love DEs that are technically strong with an array of pass rush moves but that isn't needed in this Wide 9 that I personally am not a big fan.


February 7th, 2013, 7:26 pm
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Post Re: Various 2012 NFL Mock drafts.
sweetd20 wrote:
If Schwartz and company ate insistent on sticking with the Wide 9 using a top pick on a DE unless he is an athletic freak is a waste in my opinion. I like Werner but the Wide 9 simplifies things for the DEs and relies on speed, anticipation, agility, and power. I love DEs that are technically strong with an array of pass rush moves but that isn't needed in this Wide 9 that I personally am not a big fan.


I agree... Asah would be perfect for what Schwartz wants out of a DE, but he's not worth a 5th. Gholston may even do well if we need a late round project... It just seems silly to draft a guy that concentrates on "technique" and has a "good motor" when we just want a guy to sprint to the Qb.


February 7th, 2013, 7:38 pm
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Post Re: Various 2012 NFL Mock drafts.
wjb21ndtown wrote:
sweetd20 wrote:
If Schwartz and company ate insistent on sticking with the Wide 9 using a top pick on a DE unless he is an athletic freak is a waste in my opinion. I like Werner but the Wide 9 simplifies things for the DEs and relies on speed, anticipation, agility, and power. I love DEs that are technically strong with an array of pass rush moves but that isn't needed in this Wide 9 that I personally am not a big fan.


I agree... Asah would be perfect for what Schwartz wants out of a DE, but he's not worth a 5th. Gholston may even do well if we need a late round project... It just seems silly to draft a guy that concentrates on "technique" and has a "good motor" when we just want a guy to sprint to the Qb.


This is why Kiper's pick sounds very plausible. I don't know how fast the kid runs, but Javis Jones is feeling really similar to Jevon Kearse and Schwartz was the D coordinator 4 of the five years Kearse played for the Titans. I hope they go LT or find a way to move down, but I think Kiper may be on to something with Jones whether we like it or not.


February 7th, 2013, 8:28 pm
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Post Re: Various 2012 NFL Mock drafts.
rao wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
sweetd20 wrote:
If Schwartz and company ate insistent on sticking with the Wide 9 using a top pick on a DE unless he is an athletic freak is a waste in my opinion. I like Werner but the Wide 9 simplifies things for the DEs and relies on speed, anticipation, agility, and power. I love DEs that are technically strong with an array of pass rush moves but that isn't needed in this Wide 9 that I personally am not a big fan.


I agree... Asah would be perfect for what Schwartz wants out of a DE, but he's not worth a 5th. Gholston may even do well if we need a late round project... It just seems silly to draft a guy that concentrates on "technique" and has a "good motor" when we just want a guy to sprint to the Qb.


This is why Kiper's pick sounds very plausible. I don't know how fast the kid runs, but Javis Jones is feeling really similar to Jevon Kearse and Schwartz was the D coordinator 4 of the five years Kearse played for the Titans. I hope they go LT or find a way to move down, but I think Kiper may be on to something with Jones whether we like it or not.


Wasn't Kearse like 6'7, similar in size and stature to Peppers? Jones seems too small for the task, IMO. I'd rather wait and get either Asanh or if a CB falls to us really wait it out and take Gholston. I don't think Gholston will be "good" but I think LoJack, Gholston and Young can "get us by" with great DTs.


February 7th, 2013, 8:34 pm
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Post Re: Various 2012 NFL Mock drafts.
wjb21ndtown wrote:
rao wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
sweetd20 wrote:
If Schwartz and company ate insistent on sticking with the Wide 9 using a top pick on a DE unless he is an athletic freak is a waste in my opinion. I like Werner but the Wide 9 simplifies things for the DEs and relies on speed, anticipation, agility, and power. I love DEs that are technically strong with an array of pass rush moves but that isn't needed in this Wide 9 that I personally am not a big fan.


I agree... Asah would be perfect for what Schwartz wants out of a DE, but he's not worth a 5th. Gholston may even do well if we need a late round project... It just seems silly to draft a guy that concentrates on "technique" and has a "good motor" when we just want a guy to sprint to the Qb.


This is why Kiper's pick sounds very plausible. I don't know how fast the kid runs, but Javis Jones is feeling really similar to Jevon Kearse and Schwartz was the D coordinator 4 of the five years Kearse played for the Titans. I hope they go LT or find a way to move down, but I think Kiper may be on to something with Jones whether we like it or not.


Wasn't Kearse like 6'7, similar in size and stature to Peppers? Jones seems too small for the task, IMO. I'd rather wait and get either Asanh or if a CB falls to us really wait it out and take Gholston. I don't think Gholston will be "good" but I think LoJack, Gholston and Young can "get us by" with great DTs.


No Kearse was 6'4, he was a freak because he ran a 4.48 at 270lbs. He was much heavier than Jones is right now, but their style of play seems very similar both being pass rushing outside LBs. Its the athletic ability to stand up and play in the open field or rush the passer that reminds me of Kearse. I think Kearse was a better prospect, but even their stats coming out are very close and he seems like the kind of end Schwartz would want. I am by no means saying Jones is as good as Kearse or that we should draft him, just saying he seems very plausible.


February 7th, 2013, 9:04 pm
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Post Re: Various 2012 NFL Mock drafts.
wjb21ndtown wrote:
kdsberman wrote:
I understand your point WJB, but I've been following Werner for a long time and I very much so believe he will be an upgrade over Avril and KVB.

Regardless, it all depends who is left on the board. If Joeckel is still there, you HAVE to take him. It's really quite simple. There's a lot of different opinions on what they should do if that isn't the case. I still say Werner because I'm very high on him, but that's just my opinion. Fisher would be intriguing too. I really wouldn't mind a trade back and he Vacarro then trade up and take Trufant or Warmack if he's still there.


You really believe that Warner will have 11 sacks his rookie season?


Who had 11 sacks??

And im saying overall, I think he will be an upgrade. Maybe not necessarily NEXT year, but I think he would be in a short period of time. Have you watched Werner play? And im not talking YouTube clips. He doesnt just have a "good motor" like Chris Long. He uses his hands very well, is EXTREMELY quick off the line. Plays the run very well, unlike Avril.

Let me ask you this WJB, and Im not starting an argument here, if (and when) Avril doesnt return, who do you think will play DE for us and be effective? Avril is as good as gone. KVB is gone. LoJack doesnt wow anyone as a pass rusher. Willie Young showed nothing last year.

I dont want to go into next years draft having DE our biggest need because this D-line failed so miserably to get to the QB. We have got to keep this D-line a strength.

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February 7th, 2013, 9:07 pm
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Post Re: Various 2012 NFL Mock drafts.
kdsberman wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
kdsberman wrote:
I understand your point WJB, but I've been following Werner for a long time and I very much so believe he will be an upgrade over Avril and KVB.

Regardless, it all depends who is left on the board. If Joeckel is still there, you HAVE to take him. It's really quite simple. There's a lot of different opinions on what they should do if that isn't the case. I still say Werner because I'm very high on him, but that's just my opinion. Fisher would be intriguing too. I really wouldn't mind a trade back and he Vacarro then trade up and take Trufant or Warmack if he's still there.


You really believe that Warner will have 11 sacks his rookie season?


Who had 11 sacks??

And im saying overall, I think he will be an upgrade. Maybe not necessarily NEXT year, but I think he would be in a short period of time. Have you watched Werner play? And im not talking YouTube clips. He doesnt just have a "good motor" like Chris Long. He uses his hands very well, is EXTREMELY quick off the line. Plays the run very well, unlike Avril.

Let me ask you this WJB, and Im not starting an argument here, if (and when) Avril doesnt return, who do you think will play DE for us and be effective? Avril is as good as gone. KVB is gone. LoJack doesnt wow anyone as a pass rusher. Willie Young showed nothing last year.

I dont want to go into next years draft having DE our biggest need because this D-line failed so miserably to get to the QB. We have got to keep this D-line a strength.


Avril had 11 sacks in 2011 and 9.5 last year after missing camp. I would say that Avril knows now that missing camp is a mistake, and regrets it. IMO Avril is a 10-11 per year sack guy.

The bolded part is what I have a problem with. If he's going to be a project player, meaning, he's going to take 2-3 years to develop, then I don't think he's worth a #5 selection. I really think he's a Chris Long clone, and I think you just hope he turns out to be as good as Long, and IMO Long isn't even great. I don't think Long is a game changer, he's just a good solid DE.

Next year I think we more or less have to rely on a rookie and Lojack, unless we somehow, some way get two rookies to pan out. Unless we move Suh to DE and play Hill and Fairly at DT.

That said, what's the difference? If you're telling me that Werner is going to take 3 years to put up double digit numbers, and he's only capable of 6ish sacks this year (about average for a rookie... Chris Long was in the same boat for his first three seasons), then why take him over someone like Asanh would is better suited for this team/system and would put up similar numbers this year, and may have a similar ceiling? You can argue that Werner is less of a project, and I'll agree, but the difference between Wernre and Asanh is much lower than Fisher and X tackle (whomever is the next guy on the board).


February 7th, 2013, 9:15 pm
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Post Re: Various 2012 NFL Mock drafts.
I understand what youre saying (except the Ansah part, I just am not as high on Ansah as most are), but lets look at the situations between Long and potentially Werner. Who did Long have as his DTs compared to what Werner would have in Suh/Fairley? I think its a common thought here that Avril wouldnt be as effective playing on another D-line. Dont you think Werner would have the same help? What if Chris Long would have played his rookie year playing next to Suh and Fairley? Maybe he would have been better, maybe not.

Another thing is I dont see the Lions moving up to take Ansah anyway. I think teams fall in love way too much with guys that have potential and Ansah is a perfect example, and I think he easily goes 1st round, maybe mid-1st.

Again, I agree with you about Joeckel and MAYBE Fisher. But I still believe Werner can be a very good player for us and worth the #5 pick.

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February 7th, 2013, 9:40 pm
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Post Re: Various 2012 NFL Mock drafts.
kdsberman wrote:
I understand what youre saying (except the Ansah part, I just am not as high on Ansah as most are), but lets look at the situations between Long and potentially Werner. Who did Long have as his DTs compared to what Werner would have in Suh/Fairley? I think its a common thought here that Avril wouldnt be as effective playing on another D-line. Dont you think Werner would have the same help? What if Chris Long would have played his rookie year playing next to Suh and Fairley? Maybe he would have been better, maybe not.

Another thing is I dont see the Lions moving up to take Ansah anyway. I think teams fall in love way too much with guys that have potential and Ansah is a perfect example, and I think he easily goes 1st round, maybe mid-1st.

Again, I agree with you about Joeckel and MAYBE Fisher. But I still believe Werner can be a very good player for us and worth the #5 pick.


St Louis invested a lot in their DL before Long got there, but for w/e reason it never panned out for them.

I think Werner can be solid, but I don't think he'll be great.

Ansah reminds me of Osi or Pier-Paul. I wouldn't be surprised to see the Giants take him. Where are they picking? 17?


February 7th, 2013, 10:58 pm
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Post Re: Various 2012 NFL Mock drafts.
I definitely can see the Giants taking him also.

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February 8th, 2013, 5:55 am
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