View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently April 18th, 2014, 1:47 am



Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ] 
 Bush or Young? Lets end this debate 
Author Message
Pro Bowl Player
User avatar

Joined: April 19th, 2005, 2:10 pm
Posts: 2478
Location: Michigan
Post Bush or Young? Lets end this debate
http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/5234 ... 3162&ATT=5

**NOTE: Poll on link after 37,000 votes is dead even for Bush/Young
50% think texans should draft Bush
50% think texans should draft Young

The Texans are certainly sitting pretty now, aren't they?

The league has been abuzz about Reggie Bush for months. Now, as if to make up for lost time, the buzz about Vince Young is deafening. Until Wednesday, the debate for the Texans was whether they should take Bush or trade down for players at postions where they really needed help, like Ohio State linebacker A.J. Hawk or Virginia left tackle D'Brickashaw Ferguson. Now there's a new layer to the debate: take Vince or take Reggie?

Reggie Bush is a known quantity. It's much easier to project a college running back to the NFL than a college quarterback, particularly a quarterback such as Vince Young. Bush was on the radar screen as a possible early entrant and first round pick even before this season. Young flew up the draft boards ? at least the media's, if not the ones on NFL general managers' walls ? on the strength of one phenomenal game. If the Texans want the best player they can find with the top pick, Bush is still the best choice. One great game isn't enough to change that.


Taking Young instead of Bush with the first pick would represent a monumental risk for the Texans. The term that has attached itself to Bush is "can't-miss prospect." It's true that running back is far from the top in the list of needs for the Texans. But they would take Bush because they are so certain that, barring injury, he will be one of the best players at his position. Quarterback isn't high on the list of needs either ? depending on your opinion of David Carr, it is a position that could be improved but not one that is holding back the team ? so the Texans would have to be as certain about Young as they are about Bush.

Young's potential is unprecedented. If his passing could catch up to his running, he could be the greatest quarterback in the history of the NFL. But that might never happen, and he could be merely another Kordell Stewart.

Young needs a lot of work to make it in the NFL. He's a great football player, and a great quarterback, but his strengths made up for the deficiencies in his game at the college level in ways that they won't at the pro level. His strengths are his tremendous athleticism, as expressed in his running ability that might be better than Michael Vick's, and his calmness and consequent ability to know what's going on everywhere on the field.

Vince Young running is a thing of beauty. When Vick runs, it's exciting, because he is always capable of scoring. But Young seems to glide effortlessly down the field, his long strides spiriting him past the defense much faster than they seem. He has a truly extraordinary feel for where defenders are and where they're coming from, and he can avoid them so deftly that they end up looking silly. That also allows him to avoid hard head-on hits ? the kind of hits that get quarterbacks injured. He sheds tacklers effortlessly because of his great balance and body control, and when he gets tackled he tends to get pulled down rather than knocked down.

Because of his preternatural athleticism, defenses play Young differently than they would a Matt Leinart. They put a spy on him, thereby taking a guy out of coverage; when he drifts toward scrambling, they pursue him more vigorously than they would other players. That all causes a lot of big holes in the coverage all over the field for his receivers to plant themselves in, and his field awareness allows him to find them and hit them in those holes. Because they're so open so much of the time, he doesn't have to be as accurate or as strong-armed with a lot of his big throws.

To be sure, he throws a lot of good, quick, NFL-style passes, but they aren't his bread and butter, and they're not as consistently successful. It's no coincidence that the offense stalled out in the red zone a few times in the Rose Bowl, and that all the Texas touchdowns were on the ground. Open spaces in the defense don't appear as readily, and they aren't as big, when the field is compressed in the red zone. So Young can't lob those really gorgeous passes to wide open receivers like he does between the 20s.

Most of Young's highlight reel passes are rainbows to uncovered receivers that don't necessarily demonstrate accuracy or a strong arm. That's not to say that they're passes that any quarterback could make. It's only because he's Vince Young that he can be scrambling to his right and a receiver can be open all the way across the field to his left after the defense slackened its discipline to defend the scramble. And on top of that, it's an entirely different skill that he is able to find that receiver back to the left, know how open he is, know that he'll still be open when a pass gets to him, and then throw it to him accurately. That is an extremely potent and rare combination. But it's not necessarily one that will be as effective in the NFL.

NFL defenses won't have the same response to Young's scrambling that college defenses do. For one thing, they've kind of caught up to Vick at this point, and so they have a head start on Young, who's similar at least as far as the defensive scheme required. But more than that, the reason he's so dangerous in college football is because he's head and shoulders better than any athlete on any defense he's seen all season, with maybe one exception per very good team. He will still be an upper-echelon athlete in the NFL, but the gap won't be as wide.

His runs won't be so consistently effective, and they won't be so devastating. NFL defenses won't have to game-plan as hard against them, and defenders won't overcommit as much to them. NFL defensive players are also a lot more experienced, and probably by and large football smarter than college defensive players, so they will tend better to keep to their coverage and backside responsibilities even when Young is scrambling in the pocket. All of that means that he won't find those huge open spaces with receivers in them. He will have to throw zippier, more accurate passes. Maybe not as zippy and accurate as a Matt Leinart will, but still better than most of the passes he threw in college.


The last time the Texans held the No. 1 pick, they chose quarterback David Carr. (Scott Halleran / Getty Images)

There's no reason to think that he can't do this. He's shown definite improvement as a passer every year, and his work ethic is famous. But if the Texans tried to take Young as is and play him, they would find little success. It's well known that his mechanics are poor, and he almost never ran an NFL-style dropback at Texas. There is certainly no guarantee that he will one day be a Pro Bowl-caliber passer ? which is what you expect if you draft him with the first overall pick. The jury is still out on Vick as a passer, and while he and Young are not identical, that should be enough to make the Texans wonder.

Not only is Young a risky pick, drafting him would mark a major overhaul for the Texans. A team can make use of more than one good running back ? Denver does it every year ? but only one quarterback. Drafting Young means giving up on Carr. But Young needs time to develop as an NFL quarterback, meaning Houston would have to keep Carr until Young was ready, with everyone knowing that Carr would then be released, or release Carr and sign a veteran free-agent seat filler. They would have to make that decision by the Pro Bowl, when Carr becomes a free agent unless the Texans pick up his option.

But that isn't the case with running backs, particularly with Bush and Domanick Davis. Each year, Davis has missed at least one game and been slowed in others due to injury, and Bush is a smaller back who benefits from sharing the rushing duties. Not only that, both Davis and Bush are excellent receivers out of the backfield, so they could line up together in creative formations, helping to bolster the Texans' thin wide receiver corps. The Texans could also move backup running back Jonathan Wells, a good football player but their worst pure runner, to fullback ? a la Mike Anderson in Denver in 2004. With Broncos offensive coordinator Gary Kubiak the likely choice as the Texans' next head coach, Houston would be poised to imitate Denver's annual rushing excellence.

Poll

That doesn't mean the Texans need a running back like Bush, and in the short term they would improve more by trading down and drafting a player who, although he might not be as good as Bush, would fill a position that is currently a weakness. Or they could take Bush because he is the "best player available," which happens to be a lot easier to do when the best player is a running back, not a quarterback. Drafting Bush would not force the Houston front office's hand the same way drafting Young would.

The first pick is not for taking gambles. Vince Young, at this stage of his development, is a gamble. The upside is there, and it is tremendous, but so is the risk that the Texans would be right back here five years from now ? watching the David Carr-led Raiders challenge the Reggie Bush-led Saints in Super Bowl XLV while trying to decide whom they should take with the top pick to replace Vince Young.

_________________
[b]New York Giants 26 - San Fransisco 3 - CandleStick Park - Who's got it better than us???[/b]


January 10th, 2006, 2:37 pm
Profile WWW
Fired Head Coach (0-16 record)
User avatar

Joined: October 30th, 2004, 12:30 pm
Posts: 2205
Location: Austin, TX
Post 
I'd take VY in a heart beat over that kid from USC.. Reggie WHO??

_________________
Image

NEVER GIVE UP!


January 10th, 2006, 3:04 pm
Profile
QB Coach

Joined: August 6th, 2004, 8:33 pm
Posts: 3222
Post 
There is no debate. They aren't going to re-build. They want to win. You don't win with a rookie QB. They already stated that they want Bush, and will take Bush, after he declares in a few hours. Carr will be better than anyone else they can get in the draft for this year, and may actually turn out to be a franchise QB.


January 10th, 2006, 4:10 pm
Profile WWW
Bubbles the Lion

Joined: March 4th, 2005, 2:29 pm
Posts: 52
Location: Illinois
Post 
I think they should grab Bush right away he will take the pressure off of Carr as well which will help him out ALOT. I like Vince ALOT but i also believe he has some work to do yet. I think he is going to need to do what Carson Palmer did his first year and sit and watch understanding the NFL. I believe Bush will make an immediate impact.


January 10th, 2006, 4:35 pm
Profile
Varsity Captain

Joined: October 15th, 2005, 7:20 pm
Posts: 292
Location: Pittsford Michigan
Post 
Well neither Reggie Bush or Vince Young are the best picks for the Texans, the best pick would be D. Ferguson who helps the teams worst unit of the entire Texans team.

Reggie Bush is not going to make much of a difference in Texas if the OL does not improve.

Vince Young could improve the offense but it would require them to get rid of David Carr, and i dont think thats smart for them.


January 10th, 2006, 7:52 pm
Profile
Millen Draft Pick - Epic Bust
User avatar

Joined: February 27th, 2005, 8:56 pm
Posts: 701
Location: Michigan
Post 
Unless Houston trades out of number one and draft's D'Brickshaw, Reggie Bush is the pick. Gary Kubiac is the front runner for the job, he'll more then lilkely will get it. He's going to want to implement Denver's sytem and have two RB sets. I guarantee you in about 1-3 years this will be the greatest tandem EVER.

_________________
Image

Michael Huff for DROY


January 10th, 2006, 8:28 pm
Profile WWW
RIP Killer
User avatar

Joined: October 20th, 2004, 4:16 pm
Posts: 9764
Location: Where ever I'm at now
Post 
There is no debate. Vince Young has significantly more risk associated with him than Bush or Leinhart does. Vince is NOT ready for the NFL. He hasn't been exposed to a pro style offense, he is not comfortable working under center nor is he comfortable in the pocket.

I don't think Reggie Bush is the second coming of Barry, but he certainly is bound to be successful in the NFL. I liken Bush to being much like Edgerrin James. He can excel in a one back or two back offense and be used in a variety of ways. Bush is easily the best pick for Houston.

D'Brickashaw Ferguson fills a greater need but with a rich crop of offensive tackles the Texans can wait till pick #33 to get their new left side protector, most likely Darryn Colledge or Jonathon Scott.

_________________
Driver of the 'we need a coaching change' bandwagon. Climb aboard.


January 10th, 2006, 10:22 pm
Profile
QB Coach

Joined: August 6th, 2004, 8:33 pm
Posts: 3222
Post 
HunterMSU wrote:
Reggie Bush is not going to make much of a difference in Texas if the OL does not improve.


I don't think that's true.

Houston does indeed have a good run-blocking offensive line. They haven't figured out how to pass block, but they can run block better than I thought they would (after hearing all the negativity from their fans about the line).

I mean come on, Domanick Davis can run for 1000 yards behind them, and he's not good. He has durability issues, fumble issues, and isn't an upper-eschelon starting back in this league. Yet he still manages to play well behind them.


January 10th, 2006, 10:47 pm
Profile WWW
Pro Bowl Player
User avatar

Joined: April 19th, 2005, 2:10 pm
Posts: 2478
Location: Michigan
Post 
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/3594262.html


Quote:
ON PRO FOOTBALL
Work just beginning in No. 1-pick sweepstakes

By JOHN MCCLAIN
Copyright 2006 Houston Chronicle

Vince or Reggie? Reggie or Vince?


That question won't be answered for another couple of months.

Not since Hakeem Olajuwon and Michael Jordan entered the NBA have we seen so much excitement generated by a draft's prospects.

Whether they take Vince Young or Reggie Bush, the Texans can't lose.

But right now, they're a long way from making a decision because the scouting process is just heating up.

In the six years that I have known Texans owner Bob McNair, I've never caught him lying to me. When he tells me they have not decided what to do with the first pick in the draft and explains why, I believe him.

Texans personnel people, led by general manager Charley Casserly, are a long way from finishing their evaluation process and putting grades on the prospects.

Consultant Dan Reeves also will figure in the scouting process. Like Casserly, Reeves will form an opinion based on decades of experience. Reeves watched tape of the Texans' games and became a David Carr fan, but once he completes his evaluation of Young, he might recommend they draft the Texas quarterback, anyway.

The Texans have told Carr they'll exercise the option bonus and extend his contract through the 2008 season.

Carr will not be traded this year, but that doesn't mean they will pass up Young.

Kubiak will weigh in

The opinion that will carry the most weight with McNair, who'll sign off on the pick, will come from a coach who hasn't even been hired. Until Denver's season ends, offensive coordinator Gary Kubiak can't be hired to replace Dom Capers.
Whether he's hired after the AFC Championship Game or the Super Bowl, Kubiak's top priority will be to hire a quality coaching staff. The longer the Broncos play, the more good candidates Kubiak loses.

But that's a small price to pay if he comes home to Houston with a fourth Super Bowl ring.

After he hires his assistants, Kubiak will have to spend a lot of time with Carr. For about a month, they'll spend more time with each other than they spend with their wives.

Kubiak is a former quarterback who coaches quarterbacks. He knows that analyzing a quarterback takes so much more than simply watching tapes of games and practices.

Kubiak has to find out what Carr is made of ? if Carr is willing to pay the price off the field as he is on the field. Can Carr be consumed with becoming one of the NFL's best ? a process that requires 24/7 dedication during the season and something close to it in the offseason.

Kubiak has to decide if Carr can become a dynamic team leader ? a trait he hasn't developed in his first four seasons.

Many scouts say Young is the best leader to come out of college since John Elway in 1983 when Baltimore used the top pick on him and traded him to Denver, where he became teammates and friends with Kubiak.

While he's forming an opinion on Carr ? trying to decide if he thinks Carr is the quarterback who's capable of leading the Texans to a Super Bowl ? Kubiak has to meet with Bush and Young.

Kubiak will find out that Bush is an incredible prospect who's going to impress everyone with his attitude and character. Kubiak will realize the Texans couldn't go wrong with Bush.

Hometown guys

But here's something to consider: Those who know Kubiak say it means so much to him to be a head coach in his hometown.
Kubiak never has shied away from telling anyone who'll listen how much Houston means to him and his family and how special it would be to coach the Texans.

Wait until Kubiak listens to Young tell him the same thing. Do you think it won't strike a nerve when Kubiak hears Young say the same things the coach has been saying for years ? that he loves Houston and would be honored to play for his hometown team.

We'll leave you with this thought that makes Young rare: He's a Longhorn who won't be insulted to have an Aggie as a boss.

If the Texans can gig 'em and hook 'em at the same time, how can they go wrong?

John McClain covers the Texans and the NFL for the Chronicle. john.mcclain@chron.com

_________________
[b]New York Giants 26 - San Fransisco 3 - CandleStick Park - Who's got it better than us???[/b]


January 21st, 2006, 2:15 am
Profile WWW
Play by Play Announcer - Al Michaels
User avatar

Joined: October 15th, 2005, 12:45 pm
Posts: 1834
Post 
bus isnt gonna take any pressure of Carr beuase they will both be getting smoked in the back field

_________________
2011 Adopted Lion: Rob Sims/Looking for a side job at I.H.O.P because he can't stop making pancakes.


January 21st, 2006, 12:22 pm
Profile
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: August 6th, 2004, 1:25 am
Posts: 4918
Location: Hills of Auburn
Post 
The Texans are in a very similar situation to us...Carr has not been a disaster and is a significant investment...they also have opportunities to grab a number of other very talented players at other positions...a team like New Orleans hasn't blown a #1 pick a QB recently and thus is makes sense that they go after Leinhart or Young. For Houston...it would be like when San Diego took Leaf and then could have had Vick...IMO they did much better by going for LT. And Carr is not nearly as awful as Leaf and still has some potential if they can EVER protect the guy who has to have been sacked a record number of times already since starting in Houston.

_________________
Regards, Alpha|Lionbacker.com \(^o^)/
"I date this girl for two years and then the nagging starts: I wanna know your name..." - Mike Binder


January 21st, 2006, 12:42 pm
Profile WWW
Play by Play Announcer - Al Michaels
User avatar

Joined: October 15th, 2005, 12:45 pm
Posts: 1834
Post 
This is how Im gonna put this the texans are Cheerios and david carr is the milk and Dominic Davis is the sugar, they have adequate milk and sugar for there cereal. Now they have to choose to add between putting more sugar(Reggie Bush) in it or adding more milk(Vince Young). Wait Whats the point of having all this when you have no bowl(offensive Line) to put it in.

_________________
2011 Adopted Lion: Rob Sims/Looking for a side job at I.H.O.P because he can't stop making pancakes.


Last edited by Stallion on January 24th, 2006, 11:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.



January 21st, 2006, 1:22 pm
Profile
Varsity Captain

Joined: October 15th, 2005, 7:20 pm
Posts: 292
Location: Pittsford Michigan
Post 
Stallion wrote:
This is how Im gonna put this the texans are Cheerios and david carr is the milk. Now they have to choose between putting sugar(Reggie Bush) in it or adding more milk(Vince Young) they already have enough. Wait Whats the point of having all this when you have no bowl(offensive Line) to put it in.


LOL, great post.


January 21st, 2006, 2:46 pm
Profile
Play by Play Announcer - Al Michaels
User avatar

Joined: October 15th, 2005, 12:45 pm
Posts: 1834
Post 
thanks

_________________
2011 Adopted Lion: Rob Sims/Looking for a side job at I.H.O.P because he can't stop making pancakes.


January 24th, 2006, 11:17 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 14 posts ] 

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by STSoftware.