View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently December 21st, 2014, 2:33 pm



Reply to topic  [ 31 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
 Are You For or Against Taking Jay Cutler 9th overall? 

Are You For or Against Taking Jay Cutler 9th overall?
I'm all for it. 20%  20%  [ 8 ]
I don't like the idea at all. 80%  80%  [ 33 ]
Total votes : 41

 Are You For or Against Taking Jay Cutler 9th overall? 
Author Message
Play by Play Announcer - Al Michaels

Joined: October 15th, 2005, 9:00 am
Posts: 1839
Location: Greensboro, NC
Post 
wjb21ndtown wrote:
mwill2 wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
Brian wrote:
If Millen takes Cutler, I think it would be a sneaky move.

Think about it.

Cutler would put serious pressure on Joey, as Rivers did on Brees. And it may help Joey's performance.

If it doesn't help Joey's performance, you put Cutler in there, and he gives the team "optimism", or a bright future, and people believing that this team can turn it around.

And that does wonders for someone's job security.

But again, so does a 3-13 season.


I'm not sure how much true pressure Cutler can put on JH as a rookie... Additionally, I think someone like Kitna could put MORE pressure on JH with a far cheaper price tag, and he wouldn't cost us a first roundpick...


Wasn't Jeff Garcia supposed to do this last year? I don't buy the "putting pressure on the starter" argument at all. If we draft a new QB in Rd 1, it will be to replace Harrington, not to motivate him.


You really want to make the point that Garcia played well enough to push Joey for the starting position, and thus put pressure on him? IMO he was brought in here to do so and failed miserably.


No, but that is how the Lions' brass justified the Garcia signing (remember the "pitching staff" comment?). My point is valid whether Garcia played well or not. The intention was to pressure Harrington, even if the experiment failed.

Similarly, there is no certainty that Cutler (or any QB for that matter) will play "well enough" to pressure Harrington. Harrington may not respond to that approach no matter who is here, or he may simply be a bad QB. That being the case, and having witnessed the "pressure" plan fail last season, I have trouble accepting the argument that the Lions would draft a 1st round QB for the express purpose of motivating Harrington.

I'm not saying that they won't do it. I'm saying that it would be really really stupid. It wouldn't be the first time Millen did something stupid, so I'm prepared for anything.


January 29th, 2006, 5:47 pm
Profile
NFL Veteran
User avatar

Joined: September 15th, 2004, 6:02 am
Posts: 1355
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Post 
K Unit wrote:
Quote:
1. Reggie Bush RB
2. D'Brickshaw Ferguson LT
3. Matt Leinart QB
4. Vince Young QB
5. Mario Williams DE
6. AJ Hawk MLB
7. Haloti Ngata DT
8. Michael Huff S
9. Jimmy Williams CB
10. Jay Cutler QB


Every year there is always someone who magically doesnt get taken where they were suppose to, look at Mike Williams who was supposedly going top 10 to the Vikings and ended up in Detroit with the 11th pick i believe.

There will also be alot of these players dropping in value after the combines.... and others that seem to be middle 1st rounds will move up to the top 10.

So its fun to speculate, but its still too early to be totally sure.


I qualified my statement afterwards saying. Forget about the top 6. Between 6 and 10 is a lot of time for the aforementioned - D. Ferguson, AJ Hawk, M. Williams to be looooooong gone before they end up at 10. I don't disagree they can fall, but counting on one good player to fall to where you're at isn't a very smart game plan when it comes to the draft in my opinion.

_________________
Image
Lion http://www.suh93.com


January 29th, 2006, 6:25 pm
Profile WWW
Post 
mwill2 wrote:
No, but that is how the Lions' brass justified the Garcia signing (remember the "pitching staff" comment?). My point is valid whether Garcia played well or not. The intention was to pressure Harrington, even if the experiment failed.

Similarly, there is no certainty that Cutler (or any QB for that matter) will play "well enough" to pressure Harrington. Harrington may not respond to that approach no matter who is here, or he may simply be a bad QB. That being the case, and having witnessed the "pressure" plan fail last season, I have trouble accepting the argument that the Lions would draft a 1st round QB for the express purpose of motivating Harrington.

I'm not saying that they won't do it. I'm saying that it would be really really stupid. It wouldn't be the first time Millen did something stupid, so I'm prepared for anything.


MWill... I agree that last years "experiment" failed, but I'm not willing to throw out the "pressure plan" just yet... Harrington has always played better when his job is on the line, and there's some sort of real threat (other player) to take his job. As I said, I don't think Cutler is the right guy to do it, but I would love to pick up a FA that can, John Kitna.


January 29th, 2006, 8:19 pm
Play by Play Announcer - Al Michaels

Joined: October 15th, 2005, 9:00 am
Posts: 1839
Location: Greensboro, NC
Post 
wjb21ndtown wrote:
mwill2 wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
Brian wrote:
If Millen takes Cutler, I think it would be a sneaky move.

Think about it.

Cutler would put serious pressure on Joey, as Rivers did on Brees. And it may help Joey's performance.

If it doesn't help Joey's performance, you put Cutler in there, and he gives the team "optimism", or a bright future, and people believing that this team can turn it around.

And that does wonders for someone's job security.

But again, so does a 3-13 season.


I'm not sure how much true pressure Cutler can put on JH as a rookie... Additionally, I think someone like Kitna could put MORE pressure on JH with a far cheaper price tag, and he wouldn't cost us a first roundpick...


Wasn't Jeff Garcia supposed to do this last year? I don't buy the "putting pressure on the starter" argument at all. If we draft a new QB in Rd 1, it will be to replace Harrington, not to motivate him.


You really want to make the point that Garcia played well enough to push Joey for the starting position, and thus put pressure on him? IMO he was brought in here to do so and failed miserably.


No, I don't intend to make that point, nor did I imply anything of the kind. The Lions intention in bringing Garcia in was to pressure Harrington. My argument is valid regardless of how Garcia played. There can be no certainty that Harrington will EVER play well. There is even less certainty that he will develop because he is "pressured" by someone else.

Is the prevailing argument that the Lions should attempt the "pressure" strategy again and again until Harrington finally turns into a good QB?

Drafting a 1st round QB with the express purpose of pressuring Harrington is a mistake. A 1st round QB should be a potential starter, not a bench-warming source of motivation.


January 29th, 2006, 8:46 pm
Profile
RIP Killer
User avatar

Joined: January 26th, 2005, 9:34 pm
Posts: 10355
Location: Sycamore, IL
Post 
Mwill - I agree with your logic, however, the purpose of bringing in a QB like Cutler would be to have a new plan...a plan that is long-term possible solution, unlike Kitna who is 34 years old. Cutler would be another option. It would be admitting a big mistake, which is why I don't think Millen would draft him, but it's a possibility. Maybe Millen is ready to admit his mistake in Joey.

_________________
_____
The kitties are slowly restoring some Millen killed faith. Now, beat those F'ing Fudgies!
Image


January 29th, 2006, 8:53 pm
Profile
Post 
mwill2 wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
mwill2 wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
Brian wrote:
If Millen takes Cutler, I think it would be a sneaky move.

Think about it.

Cutler would put serious pressure on Joey, as Rivers did on Brees. And it may help Joey's performance.

If it doesn't help Joey's performance, you put Cutler in there, and he gives the team "optimism", or a bright future, and people believing that this team can turn it around.

And that does wonders for someone's job security.

But again, so does a 3-13 season.


I'm not sure how much true pressure Cutler can put on JH as a rookie... Additionally, I think someone like Kitna could put MORE pressure on JH with a far cheaper price tag, and he wouldn't cost us a first roundpick...


Wasn't Jeff Garcia supposed to do this last year? I don't buy the "putting pressure on the starter" argument at all. If we draft a new QB in Rd 1, it will be to replace Harrington, not to motivate him.


You really want to make the point that Garcia played well enough to push Joey for the starting position, and thus put pressure on him? IMO he was brought in here to do so and failed miserably.


No, I don't intend to make that point, nor did I imply anything of the kind. The Lions intention in bringing Garcia in was to pressure Harrington. My argument is valid regardless of how Garcia played. There can be no certainty that Harrington will EVER play well. There is even less certainty that he will develop because he is "pressured" by someone else.

Is the prevailing argument that the Lions should attempt the "pressure" strategy again and again until Harrington finally turns into a good QB?

Drafting a 1st round QB with the express purpose of pressuring Harrington is a mistake. A 1st round QB should be a potential starter, not a bench-warming source of motivation.


Your logic is valid regardless of the way Garcia played, but your conclustions (that the pressure strategy is flawed or doesn't work) are false. There wasn't any pressure on Harrington by Garcia, hands down. You can't say the pressure strategy does't work because of an experiment last year that didn't work... the experiment didn't put any pressure on JH, therefore it makes no suggestion that the pressure theory is flawed. In fact, there is TONS of evidence that it is a good theory... Mike McMahon, the # of times JH ALMOST got pulled... he's known for stepping it up when he's on the chopping block.

I agree that we shouldn't draft Cutler, and I agree that the "pressure" shouldn't come from a draft pick, but that doesn't mean the theory is flawed.


January 29th, 2006, 8:58 pm
Red Shirt Freshman

Joined: January 24th, 2006, 8:29 pm
Posts: 482
Location: Howell, MI
Post 
mwill2 wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
Brian wrote:
If Millen takes Cutler, I think it would be a sneaky move.

Think about it.

Cutler would put serious pressure on Joey, as Rivers did on Brees. And it may help Joey's performance.

If it doesn't help Joey's performance, you put Cutler in there, and he gives the team "optimism", or a bright future, and people believing that this team can turn it around.

And that does wonders for someone's job security.

But again, so does a 3-13 season.


I'm not sure how much true pressure Cutler can put on JH as a rookie... Additionally, I think someone like Kitna could put MORE pressure on JH with a far cheaper price tag, and he wouldn't cost us a first roundpick...


Wasn't Jeff Garcia supposed to do this last year? I don't buy the "putting pressure on the starter" argument at all. If we draft a new QB in Rd 1, it will be to replace Harrington, not to motivate him.


I couldnt agree with you more.

On the other hand, Im a huge Harrington supporter, I beleive he was setup for failure since he got here. Mooch wanted his mobile westcoast QB and he got that with Garcia, and we all know how that turned out. Lets not forget about all the Garcia supporters and Joey bashers, theres alot of them right here in this forum, that suddenly vanished?

Anyways I think if Hawk and Ferguson are gone, then we should trade down. Build our line in the 2nd and later, and take a value pick in our trade down.

Im not completely against the idea of taking in Cutler, if Hawk and Ferguson are gone, and we cant find a decent trade down. Because I beleive all our needs can be filled in the later rounds.

Cutler in my opinion may be the best NFL ready QB in the draft. I think in a fantasy draft if we did take him, he could come in and possibly compete with Joey for a starting spot. But im confident under the right OC and with consitent WR play Joey will do fine. But again im not 100% against Cutler if the situation is right.

_________________
Image


January 29th, 2006, 11:51 pm
Profile
QB Coach

Joined: August 6th, 2004, 8:33 pm
Posts: 3222
Post 
You need to remember that Joey played much better after he was replaced by Jeff, than before he was replaced by Jeff. It was a wake up call, and he responded to that. I'm not advocating the pick, I just think it's a sneaky move that Millen may or may not do.


January 30th, 2006, 1:21 am
Profile WWW
Play by Play Announcer - Al Michaels

Joined: October 15th, 2005, 9:00 am
Posts: 1839
Location: Greensboro, NC
Post 
sorry for the double-posts...oops!

i posted once, and came back later and couldn't see it (b/c it was moved). anyway, didn't mean to sound like a broken record :oops:


January 30th, 2006, 5:40 am
Profile
Play by Play Announcer - Al Michaels

Joined: October 15th, 2005, 9:00 am
Posts: 1839
Location: Greensboro, NC
Post 
wjb21ndtown wrote:

Your logic is valid regardless of the way Garcia played, but your conclustions (that the pressure strategy is flawed or doesn't work) are false. There wasn't any pressure on Harrington by Garcia, hands down. You can't say the pressure strategy does't work because of an experiment last year that didn't work... the experiment didn't put any pressure on JH, therefore it makes no suggestion that the pressure theory is flawed. In fact, there is TONS of evidence that it is a good theory... Mike McMahon, the # of times JH ALMOST got pulled... he's known for stepping it up when he's on the chopping block.

I agree that we shouldn't draft Cutler, and I agree that the "pressure" shouldn't come from a draft pick, but that doesn't mean the theory is flawed.


Actually, wjb, I never concluded that the "pressure" approach couldn't work. My only conclusion was that the Lions should not use their 1st round pick in order to test the theory on Harrington.

I would have to generally disagree with the arguments that Harrington specifically has responded to pressure. After Garcia was hurt pre-season, Harrington knew that Garcia could supplant him as soon as the leg healed. Garcia's presence on the team and in practice should have applied pressure--especially given his prior relationship with Mooch. Had #3 responded to said pressure, he never would have been demoted to #2.

Some apparently believe that there was progress under pressure (or that there was never any pressure). We can agree to disagree on those points, which I accept. That's highly subjective, which we can all admit.

By the way wjb, sorry for quoting you twice in my differently worded double-post, which looked as if I was repeating myself like a psychotic person. That was probably confusing. I swear I'm an idiot sometimes.


January 30th, 2006, 6:00 am
Profile
RIP Killer
User avatar

Joined: January 26th, 2005, 9:34 pm
Posts: 10355
Location: Sycamore, IL
Post 
mwill - I think you're missing out on the fact that the #9 pick wouldn't just be wasted on Joey. We would have a capable QB (or so we think), or we could have a guy who could have some trade value (like P Rivers). If Joey fails, you put in the guy who you drafted to play. If Joey succeeds, you have a SD situation. I think it could work. It's the same situation as a vet, except you're getting a long-term plan rather than a 2 year plan with a guy like Kitna who's 34 years old.

_________________
_____
The kitties are slowly restoring some Millen killed faith. Now, beat those F'ing Fudgies!
Image


January 30th, 2006, 9:49 am
Profile
Play by Play Announcer - Al Michaels

Joined: October 15th, 2005, 9:00 am
Posts: 1839
Location: Greensboro, NC
Post 
conversion02 wrote:
mwill - I think you're missing out on the fact that the #9 pick wouldn't just be wasted on Joey. We would have a capable QB (or so we think), or we could have a guy who could have some trade value (like P Rivers). If Joey fails, you put in the guy who you drafted to play. If Joey succeeds, you have a SD situation. I think it could work. It's the same situation as a vet, except you're getting a long-term plan rather than a 2 year plan with a guy like Kitna who's 34 years old.


First of all, this is not a fact. We are not discussing facts. This is pure speculation on everyone's part. I'm just waiting for someone to defend the "pressue" argument with a more substantial thought than "yeah, but it could work."

Also, I did not say that drafting a QB would be a "waste," or that it couldn't be successful. However, there is no evidence that supports the "pressure" theory as a rule (there is no way to prove it). The "it worked for San Diego" argument is flawed because it falsely assumes that Drew Brees began to play well because they drafted Rivers. This is called the fallacy of post hoc ergo propter hoc, in case anyone is curious.

And even if there is validity to the "pressure" argument, would it be a wise financial move to pay top-dollar to a 1st round pick so that he can sit on the bench for two years, and then trade him (and then have to suffer a major cap hit when his signing bonus accelerates)?

San Diego's position is not a good one. They have a solid QB in Brees, and they have a very expensive backup. They either have to part with the sure thing, or they have to trade Rivers and deal with the cap acceleration. Not to mention the fact that they've paid Rivers millions without him ever playing (aside from a few insignificant snaps). Their only other alternative is to continue paying one guy millions to hold a clipboard.

We could risk that scenario, all the while crossing our fingers that it "just might work" (even though there is no evidence to give us that hope). Or, we could build our O-line. Or grab a playmaker on defense. Or find a replacement for an aging vet. Is drafting a QB solely to inspire Harrington a better move than using the pick elsewhere? I hope that if we do draft a QB, it will be to replace Harrington, not to inspire him.


January 30th, 2006, 4:18 pm
Profile
RIP Killer
User avatar

Joined: January 26th, 2005, 9:34 pm
Posts: 10355
Location: Sycamore, IL
Post 
I understand what you're saying. I was saying it could work, not that it necessarily would. I was initially just agreeing with Brian - that it's a case for Millen drafting Cutler and could be a motive to get Joey to play better.

How is it not a fact that Cutler wouldn't be a waste of a QB? I'm not saying he is or isn't worth the #9 pick, but no QB on the market (that we actually have a legit shot at getting) could really push Joey more than Cutler could. This is implying that Cutler is in the same league as Leinart (which I don't necessarily agree with). I'm just saying it wouldn't be a wasted pick to "push" Joey...it's a long-term option at QB..unless we trade for Volek.

My point was exactly what you wrote in your last sentence; for Millen to draft a QB to replace Joey. HOWEVER, if Joey were to succeed based off of that pressure, ala SD's situation, what's the harm? A #9 pick that we could deal away like SD can? Rivers may not be worth as much as he could be, but he's still worth more than most people think.

_________________
_____
The kitties are slowly restoring some Millen killed faith. Now, beat those F'ing Fudgies!
Image


January 30th, 2006, 4:30 pm
Profile
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: August 6th, 2004, 1:25 am
Posts: 4918
Location: Hills of Auburn
Post 
With Simms and Rivers IMO we might as well draft a QB of our own. They would be younger with no much less NFL experience.

_________________
Regards, Alpha|Lionbacker.com \(^o^)/
"I date this girl for two years and then the nagging starts: I wanna know your name..." - Mike Binder


January 30th, 2006, 4:33 pm
Profile WWW
RIP Killer
User avatar

Joined: January 26th, 2005, 9:34 pm
Posts: 10355
Location: Sycamore, IL
Post 
But are any of the QBs that we have a shot at in the draft better than Simms or Rivers?

I don't think Simms is very good. I think that Rivers could be a very, very good QB in this league if given the chance. If a franchise, such as Detroit, were to commit to a QB (like we have to Joey...but give him a little better shot at being the best he can - bad example...use NYG) like Rivers, he could be exceptional. I was very high on the guy coming out and feel he could be a real player. Eli wasn't very good his rookie year, but was very good last year. I don't see why Rivers would be different. The guy is awesome IMO, as far as mechanics are concerned. I really think he is the perfect QB for Detroit - minus the fact he has nil experience and would cost us too much.

_________________
_____
The kitties are slowly restoring some Millen killed faith. Now, beat those F'ing Fudgies!
Image


January 30th, 2006, 4:43 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 31 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by STSoftware.