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 Great Blue North: AJ Hawk to Lions - Kiper says no. 
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wjb21ndtown wrote:
bigscottyz wrote:
m2karateman wrote:
bigscottyz wrote:
m2karateman wrote:
Kipers a tool.


I don't know if M2 will take you up on it or not... but you can find most of his thoughts concerning the draft right here on this board... and, I have to say, I think he is much more insightful and accurate than Mel Kiper...


well thats up to M2 to decide. i will form my opinion on what his opinions are worth when i see the response.


February 14th, 2006, 11:13 pm
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Well, our very own Brian beat Kiper last year in his top 100 picks (he was 2nd to Rick Gosselin).

Brian got 84 picks correct, Kiper 76, and the winner (the Goose) picked 88 correct.

Kiper came in 14th...and he's getting paid.

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February 14th, 2006, 11:21 pm
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conversion02 wrote:
Well, our very own Brian beat Kiper last year in his top 100 picks (he was 2nd to Rick Gosselin).

Brian got 84 picks correct, Kiper 76, and the winner (the Goose) picked 88 correct.

Kiper came in 14th...and he's getting paid.


cool! Good job Brian, go for #1 this year!


February 14th, 2006, 11:31 pm
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I would love to see Hawk drop to #9 :!:


February 15th, 2006, 12:30 am
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I didn't even know Kiper did a top 100 until I saw that Huddle Report thing, must be in his magazine. I don't subscribe.

Anyways, I don't get people's hatred for him. He knows so much about the draft, has an entertaining personality, and does a great job for ESPN.

He puts stuff out there that people initially say "WHAT! HE'S SUCH A MORON!", then those same people are making those picks in their mocks and rising those players up in their own rankings.

I remember 2 years ago he had Dunta Robinson in the first round, 11th overall to Pittsburgh in January, and no one even thought of him as a top prospect.

Even this year, people had Cutler as a second rounder, he puts him at #9 and we whine, now it's looking like he could actually go in that range (I doubt it).

There were some people on the web who proclaim themselves as experts, bash Kiper, then go out and blatantly copy off him. I see it every year off of one of the highest hit sites on the web.


February 15th, 2006, 1:08 am
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:shock: - Maybe BigScottyZ is Mel Kiper


at any rate - He's one of the many places I go to check out draft stuff. My personal favorite is Pat Kirwan. He knows stuff!

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February 15th, 2006, 1:37 am
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Ferris wrote:
:shock: - Maybe BigScottyZ is Mel Kiper


at any rate - He's one of the many places I go to check out draft stuff. My personal favorite is Pat Kirwan. He knows stuff!


hmm an interesting hypothesis, technically it would be highly logical for Mel Kiper to scope out message boards anonymously AND participate as to generate quality insight from these additional resources.

I therefore conclude that you are either correct in your contention or that somebody else in this forum is the real Mel Kiper. But is it me? That is a question for you to decide.


February 15th, 2006, 2:33 am
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Brian wrote:
I didn't even know Kiper did a top 100 until I saw that Huddle Report thing, must be in his magazine. I don't subscribe.

Anyways, I don't get people's hatred for him. He knows so much about the draft, has an entertaining personality, and does a great job for ESPN.

He puts stuff out there that people initially say "WHAT! HE'S SUCH A MORON!", then those same people are making those picks in their mocks and rising those players up in their own rankings.

I remember 2 years ago he had Dunta Robinson in the first round, 11th overall to Pittsburgh in January, and no one even thought of him as a top prospect.

Even this year, people had Cutler as a second rounder, he puts him at #9 and we whine, now it's looking like he could actually go in that range (I doubt it).

There were some people on the web who proclaim themselves as experts, bash Kiper, then go out and blatantly copy off him. I see it every year off of one of the highest hit sites on the web.


Brian... IMO people are so hard on Kiper because he makes crazy assertions that no one agrees with seemingly for attention only... He was high on that Qb from Ohio (I think.. B.J. Symons or w/e his name was... he had that crazy blond spikey hair and I don't even think he's in the league anymore)... He had Mike Williams as the #1 overall prospect last year, and what a flop he's been.... And this year he championed Cutler.... IMO Cutler has looked like poo in the Senior Bowl and the little I've seen of him hasn't impressed me at all... personally I think he's a flop and despite his climbing up the value charts, I think Kiper is a jackass for touting him so heavily... I guess we shall soon see.....

Kiper just seems to pick someone that has sort of stood out somewhere and champions the heck out of 'em... Symons was a good example... Mike Williams is another.... He takes someone controversial like BMW who was out of football for a year, and jumps on the controversial band-wagon to get people talking about him (both the player and Kiper)....


February 15th, 2006, 3:10 am
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brian wrote:

Quote:
I didn't even know Kiper did a top 100 until I saw that Huddle Report thing, must be in his magazine. I don't subscribe.

Anyways, I don't get people's hatred for him. He knows so much about the draft, has an entertaining personality, and does a great job for ESPN.

He puts stuff out there that people initially say "WHAT! HE'S SUCH A MORON!", then those same people are making those picks in their mocks and rising those players up in their own rankings.

I remember 2 years ago he had Dunta Robinson in the first round, 11th overall to Pittsburgh in January, and no one even thought of him as a top prospect.

Even this year, people had Cutler as a second rounder, he puts him at #9 and we whine, now it's looking like he could actually go in that range (I doubt it).

There were some people on the web who proclaim themselves as experts, bash Kiper, then go out and blatantly copy off him. I see it every year off of one of the highest hit sites on the web.


I 100% agree. Also, remember that Kiper gets really animated and passionate for the sake of entertainment. He is actually pretty personable and responds well to ribbing from his ESPN colleagues. For example every year they show clips of Kiper bashing certain picks that turned out great and he is able to laugh it off. I've never heard him defend himself by pointing out the times that he has been right about picks in the past. He doesnt take what he says as seriously as others make it out to be, he understands that errors are part of his business.

wjb - i think B.J. symons played for texas tech, i could be wrong. i remember kiper was high on another QB from Ohio, Ben Roethlisberger and had him higher than Phillip Rivers.

m2k - you do good work given your resources but i have a hard time believing you do your own film review or show up at college prodays, combine, etc. Much of what you know is more than likely based on info from people like Kiper. Kiper provides good info for people to make their own evaluations of what teams will draft. Hate Kiper or not, you have to be impressed when he is still rolling on day 2 and can give breakdowns of players all the way down to the last pick.


February 15th, 2006, 11:58 am
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The Legend wrote:
brian wrote:

Quote:
I didn't even know Kiper did a top 100 until I saw that Huddle Report thing, must be in his magazine. I don't subscribe.

Anyways, I don't get people's hatred for him. He knows so much about the draft, has an entertaining personality, and does a great job for ESPN.

He puts stuff out there that people initially say "WHAT! HE'S SUCH A MORON!", then those same people are making those picks in their mocks and rising those players up in their own rankings.

I remember 2 years ago he had Dunta Robinson in the first round, 11th overall to Pittsburgh in January, and no one even thought of him as a top prospect.

Even this year, people had Cutler as a second rounder, he puts him at #9 and we whine, now it's looking like he could actually go in that range (I doubt it).

There were some people on the web who proclaim themselves as experts, bash Kiper, then go out and blatantly copy off him. I see it every year off of one of the highest hit sites on the web.


I 100% agree. Also, remember that Kiper gets really animated and passionate for the sake of entertainment. He is actually pretty personable and responds well to ribbing from his ESPN colleagues. For example every year they show clips of Kiper bashing certain picks that turned out great and he is able to laugh it off. I've never heard him defend himself by pointing out the times that he has been right about picks in the past. He doesnt take what he says as seriously as others make it out to be, he understands that errors are part of his business.

wjb - i think B.J. symons played for texas tech, i could be wrong. i remember kiper was high on another QB from Ohio, Ben Roethlisberger and had him higher than Phillip Rivers.

m2k - you do good work given your resources but i have a hard time believing you do your own film review or show up at college prodays, combine, etc. Much of what you know is more than likely based on info from people like Kiper. Kiper provides good info for people to make their own evaluations of what teams will draft. Hate Kiper or not, you have to be impressed when he is still rolling on day 2 and can give breakdowns of players all the way down to the last pick.


Well said, plus M2K has not responded to my challenge of sharing his notes on the draft, which i find very suspect.


February 15th, 2006, 12:05 pm
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Don't give Kiper as much credit that many feel he deserves because he purposely will throw out a bunch of crazy scenarios just to so he can go back and say I had that guy there way back when. He also doesn't do all the leg work and studying that he used to. He now has a staff that does a lot of work for him. But hate him or not Kiper single handedly has made the NFL Draft the spectacle that it is today.


February 15th, 2006, 1:02 pm
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The Legend wrote:
i remember kiper was high on another QB from Ohio, Ben Roethlisberger and had him higher than Phillip Rivers.


Legend, most "experts" had Big Ben as an early first rounder...I remember some even had him as the first QB off the board.

The Legend wrote:
Hate Kiper or not, you have to be impressed when he is still rolling on day 2 and can give breakdowns of players all the way down to the last pick.


He does a weak analysis of everyone. His reviews aren't great, he's wrong on players a lot of times (because he has to do so many) and he has a staff that does a lot of work for him. He talks to coaches, GMs, and professional scouts and gets a review based on what they say. Sometimes, I wonder if he even watches the players at all.

bigscottyz wrote:
Well said, plus M2K has not responded to my challenge of sharing his notes on the draft, which i find very suspect.


What "challenge of sharing his notes?" You're not challenging him anything. All you did was ask for everything he's done to prepare for the draft. That's pretty lame. I wouldn't give you my stuff.

What's the point? To prove to someone that the draft is a giant crapshoot and someone can predict more picks more accurately than Mel Kiper???

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February 15th, 2006, 3:40 pm
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conversion02 wrote:
The Legend wrote:
i remember kiper was high on another QB from Ohio, Ben Roethlisberger and had him higher than Phillip Rivers.




What "challenge of sharing his notes?" You're not challenging him anything. All you did was ask for everything he's done to prepare for the draft. That's pretty lame. I wouldn't give you my stuff.

What's the point? To prove to someone that the draft is a giant crapshoot and someone can predict more picks more accurately than Mel Kiper???


pretty lame? there's no reason not to share the notes, unless there's something to hide, besides he can speak for himself if he so chooses, or he can stand mute. i've given my full disclosure on all my personal files on everything that i've strucutred for draft information to many people that have asked me for it. because i have nothing to hide, and im not afraid to share my ideas and my work, because i have an honorable and credible reputation for providing good information. i dont make it my contention that im the best in the world or the most complete analyst, but at least my ideas are my own.


February 15th, 2006, 3:51 pm
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Okay, so you want his stuff so you can check it out . . . I see. Since when is that sharing? Comparing notes - that's sharing...but you said you wanted to see what he has...never did you say you'd offer to let him see your stuff.

I'm not answering for M2K, but I'm simply making a point. Maybe M2K likes to keep HIS WORK to himself rather than letting other people see what his thoughts are. He has to reason to show anyone anything. He doesn't get paid, it's just an interest. Guys who get paid, like Kiper, have an obligation to publish what they have.

What's the point of this? You said yourself that your ideas are your own. Are you validating whether M2K's are his own or ideas he lifted from so-called experts such as Scott Wright, Mel Kiper, or Rick Gosselin? Are you going to "validate" M2K's work??? That's what I was saying sounds rather lame.

I hate pressing on stupid things like this, but it's really caught my attention and I don't understand the purpose of it.

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February 15th, 2006, 3:58 pm
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conversion02 wrote:
Okay, so you want his stuff so you can check it out . . . I see. Since when is that sharing? Comparing notes - that's sharing...but you said you wanted to see what he has...never did you say you'd offer to let him see your stuff.

I'm not answering for M2K, but I'm simply making a point. Maybe M2K likes to keep HIS WORK to himself rather than letting other people see what his thoughts are. He has to reason to show anyone anything. He doesn't get paid, it's just an interest. Guys who get paid, like Kiper, have an obligation to publish what they have.

What's the point of this? You said yourself that your ideas are your own. Are you validating whether M2K's are his own or ideas he lifted from so-called experts such as Scott Wright, Mel Kiper, or Rick Gosselin? Are you going to "validate" M2K's work??? That's what I was saying sounds rather lame.

I hate pressing on stupid things like this, but it's really caught my attention and I don't understand the purpose of it.


I didnt volunteer to share, because there is no need for me to reciprocate my work if he has no interest in seeing it, it would be up to him to ask me for it. Either way, there's no harm in divulging it to someone else anyhow, and if there was then he could say so.

And Kiper doesn't have an obligation to publish his work, he does so because it is an interest, he publishes the real full disclosure information to the teams that pay for it.

I'm not looking to "validate" his work, i dont care if his work is all his own or if its a culmination of other people's work, how one forms their opininions is up to them to decide how they want to forumlate it.

And yes MK2 does have to show his thoughts, that is if he wants to keep any credibility to what he says. Anytime in life in any situation when you do the talk you have to back it up, or it all means nothing if you can't support it. So whether he chooses to back it up, that's up to him if he cares about his credibility or not. Or he can get out the easy way and just say that he isn't interested in "my respect" for him and that it isn't important to him, i expected that to be his cop out.


February 15th, 2006, 4:15 pm
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