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 Universal Health Care 
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njroar wrote:
They tried, otherwise they wouldn't have known that they didn't have enough votes. You had to know all that talk yesterday about waiting was just lip service. As soon as they had their conference this morning they were seeing if they could push it thru lol


Ha, yeah, that's definitely true. I'm sure the whips were running around like crazy trying to figure out if they could get the votes or if they would get embarrassed by their own parties... I'm sure that was a fun day in the House of Reps!


January 21st, 2010, 7:40 pm
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Looks like it is a GO.

And several states will sue:

Quote:
Florida says several states to file healthcare lawsuit
Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:01am EDT
MIAMI, March 22 (Reuters) - Florida's attorney general will file a lawsuit with nine other state attorneys general opposing the healthcare legislation passed by Congress, a spokeswoman said on Monday.

BONDS

"The health care reform legislation passed by the U.S. House of Representatives last night clearly violates the U.S. Constitution and infringes on each state's sovereignty," Florida Attorney General Bill McCollum, a Republican, said in a prepared statement announcing a news conference.

"On behalf of the State of Florida and of the Attorneys General from South Carolina, Nebraska, Texas, Utah, Pennsylvania, Washington, North Dakota, South Dakota and Alabama if the President signs this bill into law, we will file a lawsuit to protect the rights and the interests of American citizens." (Reporting by Michael Connor, Editing by Chizu Nomiyama)

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March 22nd, 2010, 1:15 pm
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Looks like it is a GO.

And several states will sue:

Quote:
Florida says several states to file healthcare lawsuit
Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:01am EDT
MIAMI, March 22 (Reuters) - Florida's attorney general will file a lawsuit with nine other state attorneys general opposing the healthcare legislation passed by Congress, a spokeswoman said on Monday.

BONDS

"The health care reform legislation passed by the U.S. House of Representatives last night clearly violates the U.S. Constitution and infringes on each state's sovereignty," Florida Attorney General Bill McCollum, a Republican, said in a prepared statement announcing a news conference.

"On behalf of the State of Florida and of the Attorneys General from South Carolina, Nebraska, Texas, Utah, Pennsylvania, Washington, North Dakota, South Dakota and Alabama if the President signs this bill into law, we will file a lawsuit to protect the rights and the interests of American citizens." (Reporting by Michael Connor, Editing by Chizu Nomiyama)

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March 22nd, 2010, 1:15 pm
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Yup, and this will be a monumental decision. The government mandating that you have to purchase a product is very unconstitutional. So much for the land of the free.

What really boggles the mind on this one is Stupak. He claimed to be so pro-life and then just as he announces $700k for airports, he says the President promised to fix the abortion language via executive order. Is he really that stupid? Executive order can not change law.

Or is life only worth $700k?


March 22nd, 2010, 1:52 pm
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njroar wrote:
Yup, and this will be a monumental decision. The government mandating that you have to purchase a product is very unconstitutional. So much for the land of the free.

What really boggles the mind on this one is Stupak. He claimed to be so pro-life and then just as he announces $700k for airports, he says the President promised to fix the abortion language via executive order. Is he really that stupid? Executive order can not change law.

Or is life only worth $700k?


It's actually not as monumental as people are making it out to be. The govt. has mandated that we purchase retirement insurance (social security), and the govt. mandates that we purchase vehicle insurance as well.

People keep focusing on the commerce clause to provide authority on why the govt. can and cannot accomplish this end, that said, IMO it's a moot point whether they can regulate the commerce or not. They have the power to implement the program on Congress' taxing and spending power.


March 22nd, 2010, 1:57 pm
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Seven years ago the late night news updates were about the beginning of an illegal war. Now they're about universal health care . What a difference seven years make. Obama and the Dems FTW.

Whose Waterloo? Look what Bush speechwriter David Frum has to say:

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Waterloo
March 21st, 2010 at 4:59 pm by DAVID FRUM | No Comments |
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Conservatives and Republicans today suffered their most crushing legislative defeat since the 1960s.

It’s hard to exaggerate the magnitude of the disaster. Conservatives may cheer themselves that they’ll compensate for today’s expected vote with a big win in the November 2010 elections. But:

(1) It’s a good bet that conservatives are over-optimistic about November – by then the economy will have improved and the immediate goodies in the healthcare bill will be reaching key voting blocs.

(2) So what? Legislative majorities come and go. This healthcare bill is forever. A win in November is very poor compensation for this debacle now.

So far, I think a lot of conservatives will agree with me. Now comes the hard lesson:

A huge part of the blame for today’s disaster attaches to conservatives and Republicans ourselves.

At the beginning of this process we made a strategic decision: unlike, say, Democrats in 2001 when President Bush proposed his first tax cut, we would make no deal with the administration. No negotiations, no compromise, nothing. We were going for all the marbles. This would be Obama’s Waterloo – just as healthcare was Clinton’s in 1994.

Only, the hardliners overlooked a few key facts: Obama was elected with 53% of the vote, not Clinton’s 42%. The liberal block within the Democratic congressional caucus is bigger and stronger than it was in 1993-94. And of course the Democrats also remember their history, and also remember the consequences of their 1994 failure.

This time, when we went for all the marbles, we ended with none.

Could a deal have been reached? Who knows? But we do know that the gap between this plan and traditional Republican ideas is not very big. The Obama plan has a broad family resemblance to Mitt Romney’s Massachusetts plan. It builds on ideas developed at the Heritage Foundation in the early 1990s that formed the basis for Republican counter-proposals to Clintoncare in 1993-1994.

Barack Obama badly wanted Republican votes for his plan. Could we have leveraged his desire to align the plan more closely with conservative views? To finance it without redistributive taxes on productive enterprise – without weighing so heavily on small business – without expanding Medicaid? Too late now. They are all the law.

No illusions please: This bill will not be repealed. Even if Republicans scored a 1994 style landslide in November, how many votes could we muster to re-open the “doughnut hole” and charge seniors more for prescription drugs? How many votes to re-allow insurers to rescind policies when they discover a pre-existing condition? How many votes to banish 25 year olds from their parents’ insurance coverage? And even if the votes were there – would President Obama sign such a repeal?

We followed the most radical voices in the party and the movement, and they led us to abject and irreversible defeat.


There were leaders who knew better, who would have liked to deal. But they were trapped. Conservative talkers on Fox and talk radio had whipped the Republican voting base into such a frenzy that deal-making was rendered impossible. How do you negotiate with somebody who wants to murder your grandmother? Or – more exactly – with somebody whom your voters have been persuaded to believe wants to murder their grandmother?

I’ve been on a soapbox for months now about the harm that our overheated talk is doing to us. Yes it mobilizes supporters – but by mobilizing them with hysterical accusations and pseudo-information, overheated talk has made it impossible for representatives to represent and elected leaders to lead. The real leaders are on TV and radio, and they have very different imperatives from people in government. Talk radio thrives on confrontation and recrimination. When Rush Limbaugh said that he wanted President Obama to fail, he was intelligently explaining his own interests. What he omitted to say – but what is equally true – is that he also wants Republicans to fail. If Republicans succeed – if they govern successfully in office and negotiate attractive compromises out of office – Rush’s listeners get less angry. And if they are less angry, they listen to the radio less, and hear fewer ads for Sleepnumber beds.

So today’s defeat for free-market economics and Republican values is a huge win for the conservative entertainment industry. Their listeners and viewers will now be even more enraged, even more frustrated, even more disappointed in everybody except the responsibility-free talkers on television and radio. For them, it’s mission accomplished. For the cause they purport to represent, it’s Waterloo all right: ours.

Follow David Frum on Twitter: @davidfrum

Due to the high volume of traffic this piece is receiving, comments have been suspended. We will restore comments once traffic returns to normal levels.

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March 22nd, 2010, 3:40 pm
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wjb21ndtown wrote:
njroar wrote:
Yup, and this will be a monumental decision. The government mandating that you have to purchase a product is very unconstitutional. So much for the land of the free.

What really boggles the mind on this one is Stupak. He claimed to be so pro-life and then just as he announces $700k for airports, he says the President promised to fix the abortion language via executive order. Is he really that stupid? Executive order can not change law.

Or is life only worth $700k?


It's actually not as monumental as people are making it out to be. The govt. has mandated that we purchase retirement insurance (social security), and the govt. mandates that we purchase vehicle insurance as well.

People keep focusing on the commerce clause to provide authority on why the govt. can and cannot accomplish this end, that said, IMO it's a moot point whether they can regulate the commerce or not. They have the power to implement the program on Congress' taxing and spending power.


No, its quite different from SS and car insurance.

If you take a strict interpretation of the constitution, SS is unconstitutional. But, you still don't have to "buy" it unless you work. You could also argue that its a like a withholding tax where you don't get the money back for many years.

Car insurance is completely different. First, car insurance is only required if you own a car and drive it on public roads. Further, you're only required to purchase insurance to cover other drivers' cars, not your own. Finally, car insurance is mandated at the state--not federal--level. The car insurance/health insurance comparison is not valid whatsoever.

As for the passage of the healthcare--go Democrats! You sure showed those big bad insurance companies! Giving them millions of young, healthy customers from which they'll make a killing. Keep fighting corporate America!


March 22nd, 2010, 3:53 pm
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wjb21ndtown wrote:
njroar wrote:
Yup, and this will be a monumental decision. The government mandating that you have to purchase a product is very unconstitutional. So much for the land of the free.

What really boggles the mind on this one is Stupak. He claimed to be so pro-life and then just as he announces $700k for airports, he says the President promised to fix the abortion language via executive order. Is he really that stupid? Executive order can not change law.

Or is life only worth $700k?


It's actually not as monumental as people are making it out to be. The govt. has mandated that we purchase retirement insurance (social security), and the govt. mandates that we purchase vehicle insurance as well.

People keep focusing on the commerce clause to provide authority on why the govt. can and cannot accomplish this end, that said, IMO it's a moot point whether they can regulate the commerce or not. They have the power to implement the program on Congress' taxing and spending power.


SS is a scam, but you only have to have it if you're working. If you don't have a job, or you're a housewife, you don't pay it. And seriously you can't be comparing a few dollars out of your paycheck versus the cost of health care premiums?

Auto Insurance isn't mandatory in all 50 states. And even those that do, if you choose not to have a car and use public transportation, you don't need it and thus don't pay for it.

This is the first time in history that every man, woman and child will be required to purchase a product and there's no choice.


March 22nd, 2010, 4:01 pm
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So much for one vote, one voice: By Congress' actions, they have proven that our voice carries NO weight in their decisions. They are elected to represent their people and they have failed to do so! Sad state of affairs, when your elected officials fail to do uphold their responsibility. I say pink slip em!

So let the Thousand years of darkness begin!
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March 22nd, 2010, 4:02 pm
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This health bill disgusts me to no end. I can't wait to get Obama out of office and the Democrats out of power. Matter of fact, I wouldn't mind to see the damn Republicans gone too. The Government stopped working for the people a long time ago. It's time the American people took back the Country!

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March 22nd, 2010, 6:13 pm
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The following are some concerns regarding H.R. 3590 and H.R. 4872:

Raises Taxes and Cuts Medicare: The bill increases taxes by $569.2 billion over ten years that will harm small businesses and middle-class families. The bill also includes $528.5 billion in cuts to Medicare, cutting benefits and raising premiums on seniors. These cuts are not used to reduce the deficit, or improve the solvency of the Medicare program but instead to create new entitlement programs.

Medicare Tax: The bill increases the Medicare payroll tax by 0.9% on individuals making $200,000 and families making $250,000 (not indexed to inflation) which creates a new marriage penalty and over time will hit more of the middle class. Furthermore, the bill adds an additional 3.8% tax on net investment income for these same individuals, estates, and trusts (net gain from selling property).

Employer Mandate: The employer mandate imposes a new tax on business, which will destroy current and new jobs during a time when millions of Americans are already unemployed. Employers who do not offer coverage would face a $2,000 fine per employee - if at least one full-time employee is enrolled in an exchange plan and receives a premium subsidy. Even if an employer offers coverage, it will have to pay up to $3,000 per employee if the coverage is deemed “unaffordable” by the federal government.

Unfunded State Mandate: Despite an estimated $80 billion in taxpayer dollars lost every year due to Medicare and Medicaid fraud, the bill drastically expands the currently unsustainable Medicaid program from 100% of FPL to 133%, hurting already thinly stretched state budgets (a $20 billion unfunded mandate).

Costs: The total cost of the bill is more than $1.33 trillion (not including the $371 billion “Doc Fix” proposed in the President’s budget), when including the cost to states for mandated Medicaid expansion ($20 billion) and authorized discretionary spending for grants, public programs, changes and funding for a variety of agencies that would be responsible for implementing the bill. The “true cost” of the bill once fully implemented (FY2014-2023) is over $2.6 trillion, not including education spending according to Senate Budget Committee Republican Staff.

Gimmicks: Even CBO has doubts that the long term cost containment mechanisms will remain intact. Gimmicks include tax-now-spend-later, leaving out the physician SGR “fix”, Medicare double-dipping, and the “Ponzi Scheme,” a.k.a the long-term care CLASS Act. Thus, in reality, if you remove the off-budget Social Security Revenues ($29 billion) and the CLASS Act ($70 billion) from the deficit impact, account for CBO’s incomplete discretionary spending estimate ($114 billion), and account for Medicare double dipping ($528.5 billion), the overall deficit increase is $598.5 billion. Finally, if you add back in the SGR “fix” using the President’s figures ($371 billion), the total deficit will increase by a staggering $969.5 billion.

Government Takeover: Many conservatives may believe that the bill is a huge step away from personal, private coverage and choice, to a Washington-controlled healthcare system that rations care, limits choice, and reduces quality, innovation, and competition. The bill creates 159 new government agencies to regulate insurance and medical care for Americans.

New Bureaucratic Boards that Cede the definition of Quality and Give More Power to the Federal Government: Maintains provisions such as the comparative effectiveness research board, the Patient Centered Outcomes Research Institute, the Independent Payment Advisory Board (IPAB or “MedPAC on steroids”), and more.

Chock-Full of Special Deals: The bill includes new backroom deals to buy-off the votes of a few members in rural districts, and old favorites such as the “Louisiana Purchase,” various provisions still part of the “Cornhusker kickback,” carve-outs for unions (including a $27,500 threshold for a union worker before the “Cadillac Tax” hits compared to a $10,200 threshold for non-union workers), DSH Payments for Tennessee, funding for the University of Connecticut, and asbestos money for Montana.

Constitutionality: The U.S. Constitution and the principle of limited government are tested as never before by forcing Americans to purchase “acceptable” health care coverage or face a tax of 2.5% of modified adjusted gross income. The definition provided in the bill for “acceptable” coverage will surely force some Americans to purchase plans that include coverage they cannot afford, or don’t want or need.

Illegal Immigrants: The bill fails to adequately address citizen verification for individuals applying for low-income affordability subsidies, enrolling in Medicaid/CHIP, or enrolling in high risk pools. Funds Abortions: An Executive Order Can’t Change the Law. The only way to truly prevent taxpayer funding of abortions is to enact a law that prevents taxpayer funding of abortions. The Senate bill does not meet that standard. Executive Orders are created by the President with the stroke of a pen, and they can be rescinded just as easily.

Lack of Medical Liability Reform: Trial lawyers get off scot-free as Democrats pay lip service to real medical malpractice reform, opting to hand over money for lawyer-friendly “alternatives” instead of limiting attorneys’ fees or capping damages.

Forces Americans Out of Current Plans: The government-run plan will force tens of millions out of the coverage they currently have. CBO has estimated that 8-9 million people would be dumped from their employer sponsored coverage.

Increases Premiums: The Democrats’ health care plan will increase premiums by 10-13%. As JCT, CBO, and six other studies have shown, imposing new taxes on insurance policies, health care products, and various new insurance regulations will drive up the cost of premiums for patients of all ages.

Increases Personal Health Expenditures: CMS Actuaries predict overall national health expenditures under the Senate bill alone (due to various regulations) will jump by $222 billion.

Bends the Curve in the Wrong Direction: CBO estimates that the federal commitment to health care under the Senate bill would increase by $210 billion, while the combined effect of the reconciliation bill and Senate bill would be a staggering $390 billion increase.

Student Loan Provisions Deceitful Gimmick to Pass Something that Could not Pass on its Own Merits: This student loan bill has no place in a healthcare bill. The only reason that Democrats are placing the student loan provisions into the reconciliation bill is because they do not have 60 votes in the Senate to pass it on its own.

Constitutes a Massive, Permanent Government Takeover of the Private Student Loan Industry: Liberals have been trying to achieve this goal since the early 1990’s when the Direct Loan program (the government-run program) was created.

Does Not Factor in Market Risk: The CBO score for the student loan portions of the bill does not fully account for the cost of market risk – meaning inevitable defaults on loans. Adjusting for the cost of market risk will predictably decrease the savings projected under this bill.

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March 22nd, 2010, 6:22 pm
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See here's the deal that people can't see for some reason. I've spoken of it before, and get called a fearmonger.

The innercity already understands this and LOVES our Fearless Organizers plan.

In the inner city: the government pays: housing, food, medical, utilities, and living expenses via trumped up SSI.

In the middle class (the back bone of this society): we will be bankrupt, unable to buy, sell, trade, or exist outside of the government. So we will be forced to get on board the Fearless Organizers Selling out his own people plan, in order to get along.

As an American I'm sad to see the demise of my country. As a Christian I am excited to see the 2nd coming approaching. Your thoughts against me have NO affect. If you believe, REJOICE! If you don't, all I can see is you'll see!

DevilDoc: Bringin da Crazy back, because it's better than communism. Got any ammo?

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March 22nd, 2010, 7:14 pm
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DevilDoc wrote:
See here's the deal that people can't see for some reason. I've spoken of it before, and get called a fearmonger.

The innercity already understands this and LOVES our Fearless Organizers plan.

In the inner city: the government pays: housing, food, medical, utilities, and living expenses via trumped up SSI.

In the middle class (the back bone of this society): we will be bankrupt, unable to buy, sell, trade, or exist outside of the government. So we will be forced to get on board the Fearless Organizers Selling out his own people plan, in order to get along.

As an American I'm sad to see the demise of my country. As a Christian I am excited to see the 2nd coming approaching. Your thoughts against me have NO affect. If you believe, REJOICE! If you don't, all I can see is you'll see!

DevilDoc: Bringin da Crazy back, because it's better than communism. Got any ammo?


I wish I could call you a crazyoldfuck and be straight about it, but I really can't disagree with much about what you say. This country has lost its way and it truly is sad.


March 22nd, 2010, 8:59 pm
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Waaahhh they gave health care to everybody waaaaahhhhh I'm gonna get subsidies to buy insurance waaaahhh insurers will have to compete for our business waaahhhhh i won't get booted for a pre existing condition.

You guys are pathetic.

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March 23rd, 2010, 12:55 am
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lightning_in_a_bottle wrote:
You guys are pathetic.

Well, I think you're pathetic, and I believe most people here would agree with me.

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March 23rd, 2010, 1:02 am
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