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 Universal Health Care 
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RIP Killer
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wjb21ndtown wrote:
steensn wrote:
What point? I don't think it would be better because we still have a problem that they could have fixed. They said they cared during the election, we have Reps with good plans, they haven't done anything. Best offense is a good defense, everyone knew this would be pushed if Dems got in power and here we are.



The point that the last Congress didn't do anything about the problem is irrelevant to the discussion. THIS Congress is going to do something about it (or try damn hard) and it would be better if there was a tempered point of view in the decision making process regarding what is about to happen.


I guess my thought is that the last congress knew that if they lost power we would come to this point. If they fix the problem before they lose power we don't end up her where we are now faced with this massive scary bill. Best offense is a good defense, they could have accomplished something...

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August 4th, 2009, 2:22 pm
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steensn wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
steensn wrote:
What point? I don't think it would be better because we still have a problem that they could have fixed. They said they cared during the election, we have Reps with good plans, they haven't done anything. Best offense is a good defense, everyone knew this would be pushed if Dems got in power and here we are.



The point that the last Congress didn't do anything about the problem is irrelevant to the discussion. THIS Congress is going to do something about it (or try damn hard) and it would be better if there was a tempered point of view in the decision making process regarding what is about to happen.


I guess my thought is that the last congress knew that if they lost power we would come to this point. If they fix the problem before they lose power we don't end up her where we are now faced with this massive scary bill. Best offense is a good defense, they could have accomplished something...


I understand that, but that's over and done with... and... not to mention, that the Dems. would have likely stopped anything that the Reps. tried to do. The Reps. didn't have a majority in the Senate, so anything less than what they wanted wouldn't have made it through. Washington is all about who gets the credit for what... They want the credit for health care improvements, and they would not have let anything get by. They might have allowed some perscription drug reform or price regulation or something like that, but this is their game and this is the bill that they wanted. They would NOT have allowed the Reps. to do anything near what they wanted to get done. It would have been, as they say in D.C., wasted political capital.


August 4th, 2009, 2:25 pm
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I couldn't disagree more... It's yet to be seen whether or not it is an overall negative. It's not just helping us here in MI. The Ford plant in Chicago is also considering adding another shift to beef up production on the Taurus. That's a couple of thousand mid-level jobs for $3billion, and that's JUST the effect it's had on Ford Mo. Co., not to mention the fact that we get income tax returns on all of the new jobs that come out of this, and income tax returns on the corporate profits.


The jobs that its creating are temporary. Cars are flying off the lots right now because of this program, but as soon as it ends cars sales will fall back into a slump and the people hired by the demand this program created will have to be layed off. The additional tax revenue the government collects from the program will not offset the $3B they spent.

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Further, this program is 1000X's better than the ridiculous initial Dem. solution of building these little pet projects (like frisbee golf parks) and creating 3-10 sustainable jobs per $25million spent, or building roads to stimulate job growth, when, after the road is completed, there won't be any job left on the project.


Actually its exactly the same. The CARS program is an artificial demand stimulating program, but once the program is over the demand it created will be gone.

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It also grows consumer credit


This is a bad thing. How did we get into this mess in the first place? Too much consumer debt. To get out of it, we need LESS consumer debt--not more.

Most of the people who own these clunkers probably own them because thats all they can afford, and virtually all of the clunkers are paid off, which means no debt. Since the program requires you to buy a new car, that's creating new loans and more debt for people that can't afford it in the first place.

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With all of these externalities, I don't see how you can blanketly say that this program is a negative after a quick, snap decision analysis. You're claiming that this program is robbing us of jobs in other sectors, but you provide no proof


I don't need any proof. I can deduce this program is bad from pure logical analysis.

If you know anything about finance at all, you know that you measure your wealth in terms of assets. This program is taking valuable assets (working cars) destroying them, and replacing them with liabilities (car loans). That is a net negative.

The program is terrible for anyone who doesn't work in the automotive industry. The only benefit it provides is a marginal reduction in CO2 emissions and slight decrease in gasoline demand, but the economic costs outweigh the benefits when we're in the middle of an economic depression.


August 4th, 2009, 2:40 pm
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That's why I blame both parties.

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August 4th, 2009, 2:49 pm
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Did anyone happen to catch Glenn Beck this morning on Fox News? I caught it in passing through the morning channels. He said that someone had twittered him information about the government CARS (cash for clunkers registration) site. There is or was a subsection in the legal jargon that was researched and proven, that once the contract was filled out, the actual computer used to fill out and send the information became legal property of the U.S. Government. It was also subject to inspection of all files and folders contained on the computer, without notification by the USG, by law enforcement officials of any kind, both foreign and domestic.

When this invasion of privacy was brought up the USG started to reconstruct the site.

Glenn's point was, where were all of the people who screamed about the Patriot act, when this was far more invasive and illegal? I'd say good question!

I'm still waiting to see the U.S. Military arsenal to be marched in front of der furhrer, along 1600 Pennsylvania.

I'll keep my money, my home, my cars, my guns, and you can keep the change!

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August 4th, 2009, 7:15 pm
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For those that are discussing the Universal Healthcare, does VA Medical Care give an accurate example of what UH could or probably will look like?

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August 6th, 2009, 5:59 pm
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Lets look at some of the numbers we should be looking at when talking about the gov't taking on healthcare.

First, the 47 million uninsured that Obama and everyone throws around must be examined. That number includes 9.5 million illegals, 8.3 million who make between $50-$75K and choose not to buy insurance, and 8.8 million who make over $75K and choose not to buy insurance. Further, the Congressional Budget Office reports that the 45% of that number who are between jobs and will have health insurance within 4 months.

Second, the vast majority with health insurance are happy. Those who rate it at good or excellent is 70%. Those who rate it as fair is 23%. Those who rate it as poor = 6%. Just imagine if Obama or Congress had those sort of approval ratings.

Third, gov't is already involved in a number of healthcare programs, they completely fail at these. IMO, the gov't needs to FIX these programs before we give them anymore. Essentially, those in favor of giving the gov't more healthcare responsibility is like giving Matt Millen more teams to GM than the Lions - it is stupid.

Lets look at the Liability of just one of the gov'ts current healthcare programs - Medicare - and the unfunded liability (difference between the expected employment tax collections and expenditures) according to the trustees report.

1) Hospital Insurance - $13.4 trillion
2) Medicare Part B - $17.2 trillion
3) Medicare Part D - $7.2 trillion

That is an unfunded liability of $37.8 trillion and growing fast. Let me put this in perspective. The social secruity liability currently stands at $5.6 trillion, and we know how poorly this program is ran. If you add up all the publically held debt in the US it currently stands at $8.5 trillion (and we are actually paying this down a bit). Even scarier, if you look at the total consumer net worth it stands at $51.7 trillion.

Anyone who wants to give the gov't more control of health care is a FOOL. The problem is relatively small despite what the politicians are spinning, the current system does a great job for the vast majority, and the gov't is already running the country into the ground with current healthcare programs. This isn't a wealth distribution program, it is a give our country to debtors (think Chinese) program.

Think hard before you support any sort of gov't control healthcare program.

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August 10th, 2009, 1:14 pm
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Pablo, I'd be interested on seeing where you got the numbers from your first paragraph. Good data...

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August 10th, 2009, 1:27 pm
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Pablo,

Saying that the problem is not here now so don't worry about it is rather...foolish.

It's very reminiscent of a few years ago when the Democrats blocked social security reform. Both systems are completely unsustainable. Even if they are working perfectly fine now, the status quo cannot be maintained, and putting it off only exacerbates the problem.

The problems with Medicare are not separate from the problems with the health care system as a whole. When Medicare fails, and it will, there will be millions of uninsured elderly. What happens to them?

We, as a nation, already spend more of our GDP on health care than any other (and our GDP is artificially higher than it should be--but that's another discussion) and we're ranked in the 30s overall. On top of that, health care costs rise every year, outstripping any overall gains in quality.

Something must be done. I don't think the solution lies in big government control, but the status quo is unacceptable.


August 11th, 2009, 4:49 am
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DevilDoc wrote:
Y'all really gotta check out this link. It isn't a dumb rant on healthcare, it's quite well done, and could probably answer quite a few questions. I hope you enjoy it. It's not very long about 3 or 4 minutes


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqMKK8Ao ... r_embedded

check out the sequel at letfreedomring.org


It's a well done video, someone has some money. There are a few more if you click the next one.

It gets the point across as to why we don't want to go that route... BUT the Dem party is not selling a one payer system. Unfortunetely, it is the system that will end up with how they are structuring it.

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August 11th, 2009, 10:05 am
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Blueskies wrote:
Pablo,

Saying that the problem is not here now so don't worry about it is rather...foolish.

It's very reminiscent of a few years ago when the Democrats blocked social security reform. Both systems are completely unsustainable. Even if they are working perfectly fine now, the status quo cannot be maintained, and putting it off only exacerbates the problem.

The problems with Medicare are not separate from the problems with the health care system as a whole. When Medicare fails, and it will, there will be millions of uninsured elderly. What happens to them?

We, as a nation, already spend more of our GDP on health care than any other (and our GDP is artificially higher than it should be--but that's another discussion) and we're ranked in the 30s overall. On top of that, health care costs rise every year, outstripping any overall gains in quality.

Something must be done. I don't think the solution lies in big government control, but the status quo is unacceptable.


I'm not saying something doesn't need to be done, I'm saying a gov't program is not the answer. In fact, I'll take the status quo over a gov't controlled health care program anyday. I also pointed out how the problem is being exaggerated or spun, to look a lot different than the real picture.

As far as our rankings go, I'm assuming you are talking about the WHO and while we spend more than any other nation, we also have the #1 healthcare in the world in terms of quality.

Look, the Obama administration is trying to push through a healthcare plan in three weeks and that is very dangerous. Hell, it took him six weeks to pick out the type of family dog he wanted.

What I said was anyone who wants to turn over healthcare to the same people who run Medicare is a FOOL - and I stand by that. I'm not saying that healthcare doesn't have problems, it certainly does, but the proposals on the table are not the way to go.

You are right about the problems with Medicare not being separate from the problems with healthcare as a whole. The gov't needs to fix this program first and then we can talk about other reforms. As the numbers I found illustrate, Medicare is out of control and a disaster is looming.

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August 11th, 2009, 11:10 am
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For them to try and push through a system in 3 weeks that no one has been able to read or digest reminds me of the Brady Bill. That too was pushed through after the attempt on Reagan, and Senators were asked why they moved so fast on it. I remember one of Michigan's Senators saying, "Fast, I didn't even get to read it."

So it makes you wonder what was piggy backed on that bill, let alone this one.

Where are those that SCREAMED ABOUT the Patriot Act. We're being forced fed Communism and that's TRULY UNAMERICAN!

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August 11th, 2009, 5:32 pm
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All this makes me laugh because I remember people on this forum who supported Obama saying things like:
"....anyone would be better than Bush....."
"...Obama isn't a socialist...."
"....Presidents don't make laws, Congress does....."
"....the political system won't allow a dictatorship in America......"


Ladies and gentlemen, we are approaching the threshold of a socialist nation, with a near dictator at the helm. Putting this man in office was a mistake of the highest caliber. He didn't have the qualifications, he has made government control and intervention his PRIMARY concern and policy.

Where are all the Obamanites now?


August 11th, 2009, 5:43 pm
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m2karateman wrote:
Where are all the Obamanites now?


Most of them have stopped posting a lot here...

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August 11th, 2009, 6:00 pm
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steensn wrote:
m2karateman wrote:
Where are all the Obamanites now?


Most of them have stopped posting a lot here...


Most of them have been quieted by his blatant incompetence. His comments regarding that he "doesn't mind cleaning up someone else's mess," but he doesn't want to "hear from those that created it," meaning quite virtually that he doesn't want to hear from anyone that opposes him, were utterly ridiculous.


August 12th, 2009, 3:34 pm
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