View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently April 25th, 2014, 2:19 am



Reply to topic  [ 146 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 10  Next
 Who wants to learn about wind turbines. 
Author Message
RIP Killer
User avatar

Joined: June 26th, 2006, 1:03 pm
Posts: 13429
Post 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VMIL24o ... e=youtu.be

Our project

_________________
regularjoe12 - "You are crackin me up! really! HILARIOUS um let me quote some intellgent people in this coneversation: Steensn:"


March 30th, 2010, 3:54 pm
Profile
Pro Bowl Player
User avatar

Joined: March 6th, 2006, 1:29 am
Posts: 2490
Location: The Terrordome
Post 
steensn wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VMIL24ojP0&feature=youtu.be

Our project


Looks really cool. What's your take on its effect on the area economically?

_________________
"If you worry about what the fans say, you’re going to be sitting with them."
-Jim Schwartz


March 30th, 2010, 4:18 pm
Profile WWW
RIP Killer
User avatar

Joined: June 26th, 2006, 1:03 pm
Posts: 13429
Post 
I've been to these places and it really helps. Even if the big boost is only temporary from a local construction standpoint... the local restaurants LOVED the construction crews coming and eating breakfast, lunch, dinner. They def grabbed some good cash from the construction. Leaving behind, there are usually a handful of great paying jobs for the next 20 years that cannot be outsourced or moved. Adding 8-20 jobs in these areas is like adding hundreds in a large city. It has a huge impact and everything they are saying is true, money does flow into the local economy.

_________________
regularjoe12 - "You are crackin me up! really! HILARIOUS um let me quote some intellgent people in this coneversation: Steensn:"


March 30th, 2010, 4:49 pm
Profile
QB Coach
User avatar

Joined: August 21st, 2005, 3:36 am
Posts: 3060
Location: London, UK
Post 
Very cool. Although, you might want to go back to the youtube link and respond to the guy's post to you. He's insinuating you're not American and that there are no jobs created in the US by this. Ignorance on display....

_________________
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." - John Adams

http://www.11points.com/Books/11_Things ... _Do_Anyway

LET'S GO DUKE!

If you don't like gay marriage, don't get one.


March 30th, 2010, 11:08 pm
Profile
RIP Killer
User avatar

Joined: June 26th, 2006, 1:03 pm
Posts: 13429
Post 
Lol, the funny part is that work passed around that link... then proceeded to block youtube !?

_________________
regularjoe12 - "You are crackin me up! really! HILARIOUS um let me quote some intellgent people in this coneversation: Steensn:"


March 31st, 2010, 10:44 am
Profile
RIP Killer
User avatar

Joined: June 26th, 2006, 1:03 pm
Posts: 13429
Post 
http://news.discovery.com/earth/wind-fa ... rices.html

_________________
regularjoe12 - "You are crackin me up! really! HILARIOUS um let me quote some intellgent people in this coneversation: Steensn:"


April 10th, 2010, 10:56 am
Profile
Post 
Touchdown Jesus wrote:
Very cool. Although, you might want to go back to the youtube link and respond to the guy's post to you. He's insinuating you're not American and that there are no jobs created in the US by this. Ignorance on display....


There are some very good articles that suggest that the wind companies are taking advantage of the farmers, and that the reduction in fuel and energy is so small that these things amount to being worthless in the grand scheme of things.


April 11th, 2010, 5:02 pm
RIP Killer
User avatar

Joined: June 26th, 2006, 1:03 pm
Posts: 13429
Post 
I cannot speak to what our vendors do... but the farmer could never make as much money as they do with the amount of money they are given for the acre or so of land being used. Matters what % one thinks they deserve... they sign up for what they are going to get, so they obviously thought it was enough.

And the reduction of fuel and energy is silly... Obviously we don't displace gas used from driving because we make electricity and cars do not yet run on it. What people do not understand is that we need to continually build power generation facilities because Americans constantly demand more. We are not building wind turbines to tear down coal plants, rather we are building wind turbines instead of building more coal plants. Right now the direct effect is that we do not need as many NEW coal plants. The offset is as direct and quantitative as the number of MW you put in. It is pretty easy and simply... 10 MW of wind means 10 less MW of coal.

_________________
regularjoe12 - "You are crackin me up! really! HILARIOUS um let me quote some intellgent people in this coneversation: Steensn:"


April 12th, 2010, 12:14 pm
Profile
Post 
steensn wrote:
I cannot speak to what our vendors do... but the farmer could never make as much money as they do with the amount of money they are given for the acre or so of land being used. Matters what % one thinks they deserve... they sign up for what they are going to get, so they obviously thought it was enough.

And the reduction of fuel and energy is silly... Obviously we don't displace gas used from driving because we make electricity and cars do not yet run on it. What people do not understand is that we need to continually build power generation facilities because Americans constantly demand more. We are not building wind turbines to tear down coal plants, rather we are building wind turbines instead of building more coal plants. Right now the direct effect is that we do not need as many NEW coal plants. The offset is as direct and quantitative as the number of MW you put in. It is pretty easy and simply... 10 MW of wind means 10 less MW of coal.



The problem with your first analysis of what percentage or dollar amount that someone deserves for the right to use their land is that the owner/farmer is not a business person, knows nothing about the value of this land/wind to the power company, and they don't often consider the nuisance factor (not to mention these are often extremely long-term leases, up to 99 years long, and the leases do not adequately factor conditional changes into the leases). The power company is a shrewd, well educated business, while the farmers are often ignorant regarding much of what they negotiate with the power companies. Additionally, it provides an unsightly attraction for the neighbors whom aren't compensated at all. Recently there have been groups of land-owners that have begun banding together to have a lawyer negotiate a more reasonable contract between the two parties.


The reduction of fuel argument was structured a number of different ways. They discussed gasoline, cars going to hybrid tech and full elec. tech, using the (cheap) resources that we have, and comparing them to the minuscule, unsightly, expensive alternative - wind power. I'm not against wind energy, and I'm ALL FOR alternative power. I wish that we would use the power of our rivers much more to spin underwater turbines, and the power of our lakes and oceans to take advantage of the up and down motion of the waves to generate energy (they have a machine in place to do it, but it's rarely used). That said, IMO the turbines are unsightly and I don't know why we have to litter our rural areas with them. I honestly wish that they would put these things more in urban areas and even incorporate them into the design of buildings and design the buildings to generate wind tunnels that would produce even more energy.


April 12th, 2010, 1:07 pm
RIP Killer
User avatar

Joined: June 26th, 2006, 1:03 pm
Posts: 13429
Post 
wjb21ndtown wrote:
The problem with your first analysis of what percentage or dollar amount that someone deserves for the right to use their land is that the owner/farmer is not a business person, knows nothing about the value of this land/wind to the power company, and they don't often consider the nuisance factor (not to mention these are often extremely long-term leases, up to 99 years long, and the leases do not adequately factor conditional changes into the leases). The power company is a shrewd, well educated business, while the farmers are often ignorant regarding much of what they negotiate with the power companies. Additionally, it provides an unsightly attraction for the neighbors whom aren't compensated at all. Recently there have been groups of land-owners that have begun banding together to have a lawyer negotiate a more reasonable contract between the two parties.


No one gets compensated when a coal factory goes up. No one asks, no one gets a choice. The farmer gets paid MORE from the wind park developer than he could make on 2-3 times that amount of land in the best seasons ever. Are they getting 50%, no, but they are also not putting up the capitol to fund the project. Why should they get a large share for simply having land in a good spot? You know investment as well as anybody... unless you are willing to fork over the money to investment you don't get the money back no matter how important you are to the project. You know just as well as I that they don't have enough at stake in it to substantiate a large share.

If they get a lawyer to negotiate, good for them. They can try and work out a better deal that both the wind company and they are happy. That is fine... but I wouldn't say they are getting shafted. They couldn't make any more money with that land than the way they are now. People build skyscrapers, apartment buildings, etc all the time and never ask or consider anyone else when they do so. A three story house is going in blocking my view of the ocean... no one asked me. What is the difference?

wjb21ndtown wrote:
The reduction of fuel argument was structured a number of different ways. They discussed gasoline, cars going to hybrid tech and full elec. tech, using the (cheap) resources that we have, and comparing them to the minuscule, unsightly, expensive alternative - wind power. I'm not against wind energy, and I'm ALL FOR alternative power. I wish that we would use the power of our rivers much more to spin underwater turbines, and the power of our lakes and oceans to take advantage of the up and down motion of the waves to generate energy (they have a machine in place to do it, but it's rarely used). That said, IMO the turbines are unsightly and I don't know why we have to litter our rural areas with them. I honestly wish that they would put these things more in urban areas and even incorporate them into the design of buildings and design the buildings to generate wind tunnels that would produce even more energy.


What you are suggesting simply can't happen. Wind turbines need clean wind... urban areas degrade the quality of the wind way more than you know. We are moving away from hydroelectric because they damage the environment a great deal. They are even being torn down because of this. Wind power is cheaper than any other source of power but coal... but coal has other cost like big smoke stacks and air quality.

Yes, one can say that because the amount of cars using electricity is almost zilch. But you have the chicken or the egg thing. The same people saying we should build wind turbines because they don't have much impact because of the lack of hybrids are the same people that are saying we shouldn't build hybrids because they'd just be using coal powered electricity and there is no net benefit. It's an asinine argument because at some point you have to just bite the bullet and get one going to reap the full benefits.

Just like ANY new technology, you have to build it with the old technology. People probably said the same thing when they started building the first cars... "What's the use... you still have to have coal powered steam trains to move the parts!" But look at where we are now...

We talked about some of this before, you simply have a tradeoff here. Wind turbines in rural areas helping to support areas that have no real influx of money as farming is getting worse and worse or coal plants next to everything spewing nasty brown and yellow smoke. You cannot put wind turbines in sky scrapers and urban areas just as much as you don't put a water wheel in a lake. If people in the area don't want them they can make county ordinances to keep them out. They put building height restrictions all the time.

_________________
regularjoe12 - "You are crackin me up! really! HILARIOUS um let me quote some intellgent people in this coneversation: Steensn:"


April 12th, 2010, 2:02 pm
Profile
Post 
steensn wrote:
No one asks, no one gets a choice. The farmer gets paid MORE from the wind park developer than he could make on 2-3 times that amount of land in the best seasons ever. Are they getting 50%, no, but they are also not putting up the capitol to fund the project. Why should they get a large share for simply having land in a good spot? You know investment as well as anybody... unless you are willing to fork over the money to investment you don't get the money back no matter how important you are to the project. You know just as well as I that they don't have enough at stake in it to substantiate a large share.

If they get a lawyer to negotiate, good for them. They can try and work out a better deal that both the wind company and they are happy. That is fine... but I wouldn't say they are getting shafted. They couldn't make any more money with that land than the way they are now. People build skyscrapers, apartment buildings, etc all the time and never ask or consider anyone else when they do so. A three story house is going in blocking my view of the ocean... no one asked me. What is the difference?


That's actually not entirely true. When a coal company builds a factory (or skyscraper) they have to do numerous studies and surveys, and pass a number of city inspections. The city/townspeople get to vote on whether or not they'll allow the factory into their community, and if the factory pollutes or harms the citizens good ole Americana kicks in... they sue!!! Further, these aren't 99 year lease terms.

It's true that no one asks to build a 3 story house across from your lot that could perhaps block your ocean view, but 1) there are ordinances that cap the height of residential homes, and 2) the buyer was on notice when they bought their house that someone could in fact build across the street from them one day. When a farmer bought his lot 10-20-50 years ago they weren't on notice that the neighboring lot could be littered with windmills one day in the future, and there seems to be little to no govt. involvement in precluding the installation of these enormous structures.




steensn wrote:
What you are suggesting simply can't happen. Wind turbines need clean wind... urban areas degrade the quality of the wind way more than you know. We are moving away from hydroelectric because they damage the environment a great deal. They are even being torn down because of this. Wind power is cheaper than any other source of power but coal... but coal has other cost like big smoke stacks and air quality.

Yes, one can say that because the amount of cars using electricity is almost zilch. But you have the chicken or the egg thing. The same people saying we should build wind turbines because they don't have much impact because of the lack of hybrids are the same people that are saying we shouldn't build hybrids because they'd just be using coal powered electricity and there is no net benefit. It's an asinine argument because at some point you have to just bite the bullet and get one going to reap the full benefits.

Just like ANY new technology, you have to build it with the old technology. People probably said the same thing when they started building the first cars... "What's the use... you still have to have coal powered steam trains to move the parts!" But look at where we are now...

We talked about some of this before, you simply have a tradeoff here. Wind turbines in rural areas helping to support areas that have no real influx of money as farming is getting worse and worse or coal plants next to everything spewing nasty brown and yellow smoke. You cannot put wind turbines in sky scrapers and urban areas just as much as you don't put a water wheel in a lake. If people in the area don't want them they can make county ordinances to keep them out. They put building height restrictions all the time.


Why do wind turbines need clean air to move? Does dirty air move the turbine any slower? To me it seems that kinetic energy is energy and it should move the mill whether there is particulate matter in the air or not.


April 12th, 2010, 2:57 pm
RIP Killer
User avatar

Joined: June 26th, 2006, 1:03 pm
Posts: 13429
Post 
wjb21ndtown wrote:
That's actually not entirely true. When a coal company builds a factory (or skyscraper) they have to do numerous studies and surveys, and pass a number of city inspections. The city/townspeople get to vote on whether or not they'll allow the factory into their community, and if the factory pollutes or harms the citizens good ole Americana kicks in... they sue!!! Further, these aren't 99 year lease terms.

It's true that no one asks to build a 3 story house across from your lot that could perhaps block your ocean view, but 1) there are ordinances that cap the height of residential homes, and 2) the buyer was on notice when they bought their house that someone could in fact build across the street from them one day. When a farmer bought his lot 10-20-50 years ago they weren't on notice that the neighboring lot could be littered with windmills one day in the future, and there seems to be little to no govt. involvement in precluding the installation of these enormous structures.


Exactly, and every wind turbine park goes through the same permitting and regulation as any building or structure. Trust me... they go through heck to get these things put up just like any other building. It is no different and even worse sometimes because of the NIMBY's. There are already counties where they are illegal to put up... the local residence love these things and the money it brings in. The farmers may be waking up to the fact they might be able to get some more money, but they are just a happy and content with the first contracts that allowed them to save money from not having to plant that area and get WAY more money from the % cut they get from the wind. It is no worse or less regulated than any urban sprawl or new construction.

wjb21ndtown wrote:
Why do wind turbines need clean air to move? Does dirty air move the turbine any slower? To me it seems that kinetic energy is energy and it should move the mill whether there is particulate matter in the air or not.


The blades are literally large airplane wings. The more turbulent the air is, the less "lift" is generated and the more stress is put on the blades. They do at minimum 1 year of anemometer testing to determine the wind classification of the wind site based on speed, average, wind, gust, turbulence, etc. This tells the wind turbine OEM's what wind turbine best suits that environment. It is no different than an airplane going through turbulence, the plane drops, pitches, twist, rises, etc and put stress on the airplane. The difference between airplanes and wind turbine blades is that after every flight each wing is inspected and any problems reported. With wind turbines there is NO repair to the blades for the lifetime of the wind turbine (20 years) unless there is a real flaw. So this dirty air does one of two things, shortens the life of the blade or requires a more expensive beef'd up blade. Both of which reduce the return on investment and raised the cost of energy.

Can it make energy, yes, but at a more expensive rate.

_________________
regularjoe12 - "You are crackin me up! really! HILARIOUS um let me quote some intellgent people in this coneversation: Steensn:"


April 12th, 2010, 3:32 pm
Profile
RIP Killer
User avatar

Joined: June 26th, 2006, 1:03 pm
Posts: 13429
Post Re: Who wants to learn about wind turbines.
Totally sweet interactive website that my company just put together to give info on our wind turbines. You must have the latest IE8, Chrome, Firefox for this to work totally. Take a while to load, but is totally worth it.

www.TheLibertyTurbine.com

_________________
regularjoe12 - "You are crackin me up! really! HILARIOUS um let me quote some intellgent people in this coneversation: Steensn:"


June 9th, 2010, 2:32 pm
Profile
Post Re: Who wants to learn about wind turbines.
steensn wrote:
Totally sweet interactive website that my company just put together to give info on our wind turbines. You must have the latest IE8, Chrome, Firefox for this to work totally. Take a while to load, but is totally worth it.

http://www.TheLibertyTurbine.com


Speaking of IE... Steen, I DLed Spybot Search and Destroy, and it worked alright, but I couldn't find the other free virus software that you posted for me to try. Do you have a link for it?


June 9th, 2010, 3:15 pm
RIP Killer
User avatar

Joined: June 26th, 2006, 1:03 pm
Posts: 13429
Post Re: Who wants to learn about wind turbines.
My favorite:

http://www.malwarebytes.org/mbam.php

_________________
regularjoe12 - "You are crackin me up! really! HILARIOUS um let me quote some intellgent people in this coneversation: Steensn:"


June 9th, 2010, 3:19 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 146 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 10  Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by STSoftware.