View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently October 21st, 2014, 4:56 am



Reply to topic  [ 88 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
 Qur'an burning plan still on: pastor 
Author Message
RIP Killer
User avatar

Joined: June 26th, 2006, 1:03 pm
Posts: 13429
Post Re: Qur'an burning plan still on: pastor
Good extra tidbits...

I don't see how that shows the Muslims at peaceful... only that they started off that way (I am aware of them getting booted... kinda like the MORMONS!). The thing is, the Islamic religion was forged over that time as a collection of saying from Muhammad through out the beginning till the end of his life. It included very ruthless and bloody wars with lots of violence.

Not believing that Islam is a true religion, it is very possible that it's formation was a result of the sum of Muhammad's life and experiences that shaped it. Either way you paint it, by necessity or by desire... the sum of it's formation is filled with violence and commands to continue forever.

_________________
regularjoe12 - "You are crackin me up! really! HILARIOUS um let me quote some intellgent people in this coneversation: Steensn:"


September 14th, 2010, 8:20 pm
Profile
Pop Warner Rookie
User avatar

Joined: October 15th, 2005, 1:56 pm
Posts: 98
Post Re: Qur'an burning plan still on: pastor
As is the basis of just about every group of humans on the planet.
As a life form we aren't very sociable as groups. Never have been and probably never will be.

_________________
“If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition and then admit that we just don't want to do it.”
-Stephen Colbert-


September 14th, 2010, 8:24 pm
Profile
RIP Killer
User avatar

Joined: June 26th, 2006, 1:03 pm
Posts: 13429
Post Re: Qur'an burning plan still on: pastor
Nurosa wrote:
As is the basis of just about every group of humans on the planet.
As a life form we aren't very sociable as groups. Never have been and probably never will be.


Sure, depending on what your beliefs are of why it makes things interesting.

_________________
regularjoe12 - "You are crackin me up! really! HILARIOUS um let me quote some intellgent people in this coneversation: Steensn:"


September 14th, 2010, 8:28 pm
Profile
Pop Warner Rookie
User avatar

Joined: October 15th, 2005, 1:56 pm
Posts: 98
Post Re: Qur'an burning plan still on: pastor
Hey man I'm on your side. I just think people are idiots.
For the same reason we can't condemn Christianity based on the actions of the Inquisition and Fred Phelps,we can't condemn Islam based on a few (dozens?) of Wackjobs like Imadinnerjacket and Osma Bin Crackaddict.

We are really good at remembering the bad stuff they do but find it hard to remember what we have done to others.

_________________
“If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition and then admit that we just don't want to do it.”
-Stephen Colbert-


September 14th, 2010, 8:37 pm
Profile
RIP Killer
User avatar

Joined: June 26th, 2006, 1:03 pm
Posts: 13429
Post Re: Qur'an burning plan still on: pastor
Nurosa wrote:
Hey man I'm on your side. I just think people are idiots.
For the same reason we can't condemn Christianity based on the actions of the Inquisition and Fred Phelps,we can't condemn Islam based on a few (dozens?) of Wackjobs like Imadinnerjacket and Osma Bin Crackaddict.

We are really good at remembering the bad stuff they do but find it hard to remember what we have done to others.


I agree, not throwing stones from a glass house. But we have to look at the religion and how it was formed, and it WAS formed through violence. I'm not worried how it started out, it surely ended with declarations and rules to conquer the world and forcefully convert everyone to Islam. I just say, forget what people do, if you want to know what it is based on look at it's origins to know what was meant. For Christianity it is obvious peace was desired, but we screwed that up a lot. For Islam, it is obvious conquest and forced conversion was desired, luckily... most stopped.

_________________
regularjoe12 - "You are crackin me up! really! HILARIOUS um let me quote some intellgent people in this coneversation: Steensn:"


September 14th, 2010, 8:56 pm
Profile
Pop Warner Rookie
User avatar

Joined: October 15th, 2005, 1:56 pm
Posts: 98
Post Re: Qur'an burning plan still on: pastor
See that is an incorrect Statement. The initial Islam wasn't violent. However due to strict fundamentalists that shaped policy and people who were actively trying to kill them,that changed.

Of course they were trying to kill him because of his desecration of idols of their faith. But Confrontational preaching doesn't equate to violent beginnings. If that was the case we wouldn't exactly have a moral leg to stand on as Christians,not due to violence but due to initial outbreaks of violence against Christianity due to beliefs against our confrontational preaching. The issue currently is Wahabbis. Those guys are just wackjobs in Muslims clothing.

Quote:
The Wahhabi sect is a strict, conservative sect that tries to follow the original teaching of Mohammed. It was derived from Sunni Hanbalism via Ibn Taymiya/Taymiyya (d.1328). Later it spread from Mecca to Punjab, India via Ismail Hadji Maulvi-Mohammed and Sayd Ahmed. The Saudi Arabian government came to power as a result of a Wahhabi revolt. They emphasize tawheed, or the oneness of God. Within Saudi Arabia Wahhabis are considered Sunnis.

Many of the Muslims in the World Trade Center plane crashes and the al-Qaeda were Wahhabis.
http://www.muslimhope.com/SectsOfIslam.htm

Interesting site I'll have to check more on it when I have time.
My point is that the primary vocal Muslims are Wahabbi's which in Christian terms would be the Westboro Baptist Church types. As opposed to the Billy Graham types of more rational thought. I have plenty of Muslim friends and atheist friends because we came to a common agreement. We don't try to push our beliefs on people. If you ask, we explain and show why. Pretty much the way the world should be I think.
Peace to my sane Christian brethren and Salaam to my sane Muslim brethern. The rest of you crazy nutcases need to clear off our rock as their is no room for lunacy backed by violence.

_________________
“If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition and then admit that we just don't want to do it.”
-Stephen Colbert-


September 14th, 2010, 11:21 pm
Profile
RIP Killer
User avatar

Joined: June 26th, 2006, 1:03 pm
Posts: 13429
Post Re: Qur'an burning plan still on: pastor
But you are not looking at the Qu'ran as a whole work. Islam claims that they follow the whole work of Muhammad, it is all 100% correct and from god. It includes Muhammad's violent and non-violent phase as one work. If you are claiming that they pick and choose, then they aren't following Muhammad because Muhammad intended his work at the beginning just as much as his work at the end of his life. The violent side was not some random group of Muslims 500 years later... it was Muhammad and his first successor. Much different situation... I could buy that explanation if it were anyone but Muhammad sand his first few successors, but it was exactly them.

The difference between WBB and the ones you pointed out are that the WBB don't take anything literally, they are just nuts jobs who don't take things literally. The Muslims you speak of are taking what Muhammad did literally.

_________________
regularjoe12 - "You are crackin me up! really! HILARIOUS um let me quote some intellgent people in this coneversation: Steensn:"


September 15th, 2010, 9:13 am
Profile
3rd Round Selection

Joined: October 19th, 2005, 1:24 pm
Posts: 1163
Location: Nottingham, England
Post Re: Qur'an burning plan still on: pastor
If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant, And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought: Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.

Or: kill people who are of a different religion. Quran or Bible?


September 15th, 2010, 9:56 am
Profile
RIP Killer
User avatar

Joined: June 26th, 2006, 1:03 pm
Posts: 13429
Post Re: Qur'an burning plan still on: pastor
OT UK, that was a command for the Jews, not Christians. As I stated already many times, Jews were given violent commands, no question. The statement I made is that Christians (and now Jews under the NT covenant) are commanded to be peaceful while Muslims, under what their book claims for them, are to conquer. If you want to say Christian God verses Muslim god, who allowed more violence, well it is pretty dead even. But if we take it back to what religion is commanded to be violent, only Islam is. Jesus gave a new covenant and fulfilled the Law so that none of the things like stoning people for punishment or killing non-believers is valid anymore.

You have to take what the text say based on what the founders said they should be and did themselves. Jesus stopped the stoning of a women and did not kill anyone even when he was unfairly sent to his death. He stopped his followers from protecting him when he was being arrested. Muhammad killed and murdered many people conquering land and the guy who took over after him did the same. If you want to know what was meant, look at the lives the founders and the first followers lived, it's an open and shut case.

_________________
regularjoe12 - "You are crackin me up! really! HILARIOUS um let me quote some intellgent people in this coneversation: Steensn:"


September 15th, 2010, 10:29 am
Profile
3rd Round Selection

Joined: October 19th, 2005, 1:24 pm
Posts: 1163
Location: Nottingham, England
Post Re: Qur'an burning plan still on: pastor
steensn wrote:
Jesus gave a new covenant and fulfilled the Law so that none of the things like stoning people for punishment or killing non-believers is valid anymore.

This sounds an awful lot like the picking and choosing that you said earlier was not an option for Muslims ...

Also this sounds like a pretty wholesale endorsement of the old covenant to me:
Quote:
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


Oh and this bit - Mohammed or Jesus?
Quote:
But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.


September 15th, 2010, 12:14 pm
Profile
QB Coach
User avatar

Joined: October 26th, 2005, 11:48 pm
Posts: 3039
Location: Elkhart, In.
Post Re: Qur'an burning plan still on: pastor
Hold up, wait a minute, got to put the brakes on here.....

UK what I see happening here is people making their points based on teh Old Testament of the Bible. The Old Testament was a time of the "Law" where the 10 commandments were established, and going back further, God had created for himself a race of people. That race wanted to be like the other peoples and so demanded a king. Instead of relying on their close relationship with God, they wanted to be like everyone else, and King Saul was brought in. But Saul did what was evil in the eyes of God, and so he was replaced.

Anyway, people are jumping on the violence band wagon and point at Scripture, which I agree was very violent for the time that it was required. But then came Jesus! Jesus brought in the time of GRACE, because man to date had not been able to keep the letter of the law, and so needed to be redeemed from that "contract."

Jesus' message of GRACE, LOVE, and Mercy are what has driven Christianity to date. We have not always done it right, nor have we always done it well. What is causing the problem is man's involvement, and continued "misinterpretation" of what is actually pretty clear. The Bible says go and make disciples of all men, by love, and communion, fellowship, meeting and providing as each has need. But We as people, have changed it to fulfill the lusts of our own heart. Meaning, the original Christians (Catholic) took Scripture from the common man, and said it was too deep for us to understand. So that created the Traditional Model for church that you see today.

But if you'd turn to Acts 2:42-47, you will see the actual Body of Christ (church) in how it wsa meant to function, how it did function, and how it's starting to function again.

The first part was violent, gross, and many ways disgusting because it was sin in man. The 2nd part is beautiful because it shows the failure of man being overcome by the Grace, and Mercy of God through His son Jesus.

Does the q'ran have this ability to say this?

_________________
2 Chronicles 10:14, "if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land."


September 15th, 2010, 12:51 pm
Profile
RIP Killer
User avatar

Joined: June 26th, 2006, 1:03 pm
Posts: 13429
Post Re: Qur'an burning plan still on: pastor
UK Lion wrote:
This sounds an awful lot like the picking and choosing that you said earlier was not an option for Muslims ...


Would be picking and choosing if the Bible didn't explicitly make the picking and choosing for us. You have to look at what the BIBLE says about the OT and NT links... good start below! That is exactly what I am referencing to a degree!

UK Lion wrote:
Also this sounds like a pretty wholesale endorsement of the old covenant to me:
Quote:
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


Actually, it is the opposite. Fulfilling "The Law" meant he met the prophecies req's and that his death was going to be the payment for all the things. Jesus then goes on to change the law and add to it if you notice... he points out that hating your brother is just like murder, looking lustfully at a women is just like adultery, etc. He makes immediate changes to the law and gives the moral heart for it.

The Law was FOR the Jews. Christians have no claim to the promise of the Holy Land and only the Jews had the right to conquer the land... again, the promise was for the Jews, very distinct in the Bible that it wasn't for all believers. Again, it isn't picking and choosing, it is the Bible telling us what it means. It is very straight forward...

UK Lion wrote:
Oh and this bit - Mohammed or Jesus?
Quote:
But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.


Jesus, well aware of it. Read it in context. Jesus is telling a story, in the story the rich guy says it... but with your logic you said it also so that must mean you want to bring in your enemies and have us slay them in front of you? ;)

_________________
regularjoe12 - "You are crackin me up! really! HILARIOUS um let me quote some intellgent people in this coneversation: Steensn:"


September 15th, 2010, 12:52 pm
Profile
3rd Round Selection

Joined: October 19th, 2005, 1:24 pm
Posts: 1163
Location: Nottingham, England
Post Re: Qur'an burning plan still on: pastor
steensn wrote:
Read it in context.

Well, at least we got to the main point I was trying to make in the end.

Cherry picking quotes to criticise is easily done. Usually, the believer has an argument that they consider refutes the points being made by the criticiser. Sadly, we don't have anyone to do that on this forum with regards to the Qu'ran. I am sure, however, that someone with knowledge of Islam matching yours of Christianity who believed Islam to be a peaceful religion would be able to argue their case just as well as you have done for Christianity.


September 15th, 2010, 1:03 pm
Profile
RIP Killer
User avatar

Joined: June 26th, 2006, 1:03 pm
Posts: 13429
Post Re: Qur'an burning plan still on: pastor
UK Lion wrote:
steensn wrote:
Read it in context.

Well, at least we got to the main point I was trying to make in the end.

Cherry picking quotes to criticise is easily done. Usually, the believer has an argument that they consider refutes the points being made by the criticiser. Sadly, we don't have anyone to do that on this forum with regards to the Qu'ran. I am sure, however, that someone with knowledge of Islam matching yours of Christianity who believed Islam to be a peaceful religion would be able to argue their case just as well as you have done for Christianity.


I'd love to hear it... I haven't gotten a decent response to it to date. I simply go back to what Muhammad and his first followers did and told Muslims to do and I get silence. As I would expect a Muslim being fair to Christianity, I have indeed asked them at what point in time did the command to conquer and force conversion end. An easy reading of the Bible gives us Jesus' death for Christianity and a clear separation that only Jews were given that command. In Islam, I cannot get one change or date regarding this... trust me... I've asked. There is no logical explanation for it... I cannot believe that one exist when I keep asking and get no logical answer.

You can believe that it exist, that is fine, but no one can argue it was not founded on violence... at minimum... looking at the entirety of the work.

_________________
regularjoe12 - "You are crackin me up! really! HILARIOUS um let me quote some intellgent people in this coneversation: Steensn:"


September 15th, 2010, 1:48 pm
Profile
RIP Killer
User avatar

Joined: October 20th, 2004, 4:16 pm
Posts: 9888
Location: Where ever I'm at now
Post Re: Qur'an burning plan still on: pastor
Let me ask this....when was the last time you heard of a group of militant Christians over running a mosque, destroying the books, symbols and whatever they can get their hands on that lie within? That has happened in reverse, with Islamic people destroying Christian churches or property in recent years.

Talk about the ancient past all you want. When it comes down to it, we are talking about recent history....so let's try to stay on topic with what's been happening in OUR lifetimes.

It is the Muslims who are threatening violence because of recent events, not Christians. It is the Muslims who DEMAND that they get their way. It is Muslims who are trying to sell that theirs is a religion of peace, when the actions of their leaders across the globe speak otherwise. I don't recall the Pope or the Ecumenical Patriarch of the Orthodox Church calling for a holy war because they didn't get to build a church where they wanted, or because there were people burning Bibles in Africa.

This isn't a bunch of leaderless radicals we are talking about. They are getting their marching orders from their leaders, their imams. It is those representatives of Islam making the threats, and who have called for executions of people because of stupid stuff like cartoons and the naming of stuffed animals. Trying to compare their actions to modern day Christianity and calling them equal is a foolish task that you cannot win.

Christians follow Christ, not Abraham or Moses. Christ was not a conqueror. He was a carpenter. Christ had followers that He could have set upon the synagogues and the Roman outposts. He chose to be peaceful, He spoke with God in Gethsemane and accepted what He was asked to do. Mohammed did not make the same choices, and the actions of his followers come from his writings.

Remember also that the New Testament of the Bible is a collection of stories ABOUT Jesus Christ, not the writings of Christ Himself. And in all those books, it speaks of Him as being peaceful, not warlike.

_________________
Driver of the 'we need a coaching change' bandwagon. Climb aboard.


September 15th, 2010, 1:55 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 88 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 6 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by STSoftware.