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 Racy Superbowl Ad Shot down by Fox. 
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Post Re: Racy Superbowl Ad Shot down by Fox.
Sly~ Here's a piece of physical evidence that speaks to divine creation, and that can NOT be refuted by genetics.

There is a 21 step process for blood to clot on an open wound. For any one step to be out of line, or missing altogether, the result is death (maybe not instantaneous, but death nonetheless.)

Another physical example is the eyeball, and I do not have enough info. on this topic or the previous to give you the best discription, but if you truly want to see it, I'll get it for you.

Another very interesting, and historically accurate program that uses "Astrodating" I think that's the term, to define specific dates based upon star and planet position based upon their orbits is called

thebethlehemstarproject.com

That is a one hour dvd that would blow your mind, and it's pin point science that shows you dates, for many Biblically documented events.

One thing that I've noticed in your argument (forgive the term) from others that I've talked to that say the same thing is, that choosing not to believe is easier and fits their lifestyle choice. Many that I've talke with demand to see a sign, prove it to me that he exists. Well as I've told some of my friends (more like brothers) you want to see what God looks like? Take a look at me, because it is His love that radiates from my heart and life to you. Those who are in MY sphere of influence know that there is absolutely nothing I wouldn't do for them. Those of you who have served in the service know the kind of camaraderie that you'd be willing to give your life to protect your brother in arms. That is how I live my life, and it's how close my friends are to me. Do I have thousands of friends, no, but I do have three or four very close friends. One of which doesn't believe, and who I'm trying to introduce to Christ.
Sadly, religion has shackeled people with rules, rituals, do's and don'ts, but they left out the most important and basic tenant. It's not about tradition, it's about a relationship. I don't want you to become a Christian so that you can start pulling your weight at the church, I want you to come to know a man, who did live, does live, and paid a price that no one who draws a breath is worthy of paying.

To believe in the FSM as was popular a few years back, takes more faith. Why? Let's say there was a primordial swamp, and two like organisms came together and thus life started. Now to demonstrate the mathematics let me have you choose any two stars with like colors and conditions, and you only get 1 choice. The chances or odds of you making the correct choice are 10 to the 16th power. So you see, it actually takes more faith to say that all the breathes came from the two like organisms in the swamp.

Mankind was formed from a relationship between the father, son, and holy spirit, for relationship. It's not like it's been portrayed where we sit around working our tails off so that "God" can get fat off our labor. He doesn't need us to believe for him to exist, but He wants us to believe so that we can come to know him. But that my friend is a choice you have to make.

Just let me know if you want that info. and I'll get it to you so that you can make your own decisions.

as for the Bethlehem star project, that absolutely blows your mind, it shows you what the Star was ( 3 planets actually ) and it dates many documented events. I recommend it to anyone just for the cool science stuff that was used and discovered. Oh and so you know, the guy who took up so much of his life to do this was not a scientist, but it is still VERY INTERESTING.

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April 18th, 2011, 4:24 pm
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Post Re: Racy Superbowl Ad Shot down by Fox.
DevilDoc wrote:
Sly~ Here's a piece of physical evidence that speaks to divine creation, and that can NOT be refuted by genetics.


or speaks to advanced evolution, a pretty well respected science that quite frankly puts our country and other Christian leaning countries behind much of the world in our thinking from a science standpoint.

If you think blood clotting or the eye ball really speak to divine creation, then we must really be behind other creatures with far more interesting physical traits such as being able to regenerate lost body parts. There are far more advanced eyes than that of humans, just do a little research. Guess they are more favored in God's eyes given their remarkable "divine creation".

As for the star thing, that is proof of what? Even if Jesus was born during this time, was he the ONLY child born during this star. What if it had been an eclipse? How bout during the Hale Bopp coment? Surely those must be signs from above when someone is born during such a cosmic phenomena.

There is no physical evidence, well outside of my gordita that had an image of the Virgin Mary. Sorry. If there truly was, we would all be believers because you are right it takes a lot more faith not to believe - but boy is it liberating.

And while many believers probably get mad at me and the others for poking fun, imagine things from the other side. For example, think of how crazy you think Scientologist and their beliefs are - now imagine you were one of less than 10% who didn't believe in that. In addition, imagine everywhere you turn you are slapped in the face with it, be it your currency, pledge, national anthems, art, songs, movies, tv shows, jewelry, bumper stickers, every hotel room you go into, every courtroom when you take an oath, even every time you sneeze - it just never ends. And while you see some of the good deeds they do, you see the tensions it creates with competing beliefs in other parts of the world resulting in countless bloodshed. Imagine those people saying you are going to burn for eternity for not believing and not trusting you while you are here anyways since you are not a believer (can you imagine an Atheist getting elected for Prez?)

Now that said, at least Scientology is somewhat in line with your way of thinking, for Atheist and Agnostics the gap to Christianity is much wider.

There is NO evidence unless you already believe and SEE it even if it doesn't exist. Take blood clotting or the human eye as example since you brought them up.

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April 18th, 2011, 6:15 pm
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Post Re: Racy Superbowl Ad Shot down by Fox.
I actually do not disagree with you Pablo on your main point. Christians try to create "gotchas' as proof God exist when they really only prove that we don;t know the answer yet. All it does is show that faith is required to believe whatever you do believe in those instances. I personally take those "How did that happen?" instances and it does enforce my belief that God exist and had to have a hand involved. Toyou, you really don't find it as proof, but you certainly must agree it is a whole that obviously allows for God to exist in if ones belief is such.

I cannot fathom a creation without God based on the information we have on hand. It reinforces my belief in the Biblical God. But I can agree that it doesn't proove anything.

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April 18th, 2011, 6:27 pm
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Post Re: Racy Superbowl Ad Shot down by Fox.
steensn wrote:
I actually do not disagree with you Pablo on your main point. Christians try to create "gotchas' as proof God exist when they really only prove that we don;t know the answer yet. All it does is show that faith is required to believe whatever you do believe in those instances. I personally take those "How did that happen?" instances and it does enforce my belief that God exist and had to have a hand involved. Toyou, you really don't find it as proof, but you certainly must agree it is a whole that obviously allows for God to exist in if ones belief is such.

I cannot fathom a creation without God based on the information we have on hand. It reinforces my belief in the Biblical God. But I can agree that it doesn't proove anything.


Thanks for taking my post the right way steensn, I wasn't sure how it would come across, and I'm very impressed by the openess in your response. I'm trying to point out where folks like Sly and myself are coming from. As a former believer, I also understand how things we see as non-proof do serve to reinforce your existing beliefs - there are still plenty of things that we can't explain via science and one's belief systems sure are a nice way to fill in those gaps (just one more example why it is much more difficult to be a non-believer).

Actually, I don't need physical evidence to believe, although that would help. I would need a spiritual experience in a rational state of mind. So God, if you are reading this Lionbacker forum (and it tends to be a pretty good read most of the time cause I'm sure even you have trouble figuring out why 1) we are still fans of this club adn 2) how this draft will really play out), you know what to do to turn me into a believer, I leave my faith in your quite capable hands...

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April 18th, 2011, 6:37 pm
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Post Re: Racy Superbowl Ad Shot down by Fox.
Pablo,

Your post is such a blessing to me because of the willingness to reach out and ask God to speak to you in the way that He knows you need. In my opinion that's a huge step, but not the only one. It may be the only one you are prepared to take, and that's cool too! But it's a step nonetheless!

You are correct in that there is much of earth that we don't know, and maybe can't know. In fact, I think much of what I believe comes from FAITH. What is faith, the evidence of things hoped for, but not yet seen.

Several years ago when I first came to LB, Illinoying Eric tried his best to insult me, calling my viewpoint a fallable straw man. Although it may be, it is still a valid description of my thought process. You also have to keep in mind that IE was the same man that claimed to have played MSU Spartan football with Thornhill, but in a thread several months later was claiming to be a 45 yr. old man. So I guess I would have to quote Churchill on that one, "If I respected the man, then his opinion would matter." Back to my point.

My thought process is this: If I live my life believing in a God, and serving him to the best of my ability, counting on the relationship and grace that is promised to me in a book of "His Writings" and yet upon death there is nothing, I win, because I still have lived a good life. But if I live my life outside of that relationship with God, and live for myself and my pleasures only, and upon death discover that there really is a God, now I'm sunk. So I guess to make it simple: If I live my life as a Christian and there is a God, I win, and if I live my live as a Christain, and there is no God, but have done much to help and serve others, I still win.

Whereas the other side of the coin is a 50/50 crap shoot. I'd rather have the guarantee.

I'm blessed by your comment though, and will ask the Lord on your behalf to answer your request. I don't have any power or authority by any means, but I can ask, I just hope you are willing to see or hear what He wishes to show you.

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2 Chronicles 10:14, "if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land."


April 18th, 2011, 6:57 pm
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Post Re: Racy Superbowl Ad Shot down by Fox.
DevilDoc wrote:
My thought process is this: If I live my life believing in a God, and serving him to the best of my ability, counting on the relationship and grace that is promised to me in a book of "His Writings" and yet upon death there is nothing, I win, because I still have lived a good life. But if I live my life outside of that relationship with God, and live for myself and my pleasures only, and upon death discover that there really is a God, now I'm sunk. So I guess to make it simple: If I live my life as a Christian and there is a God, I win, and if I live my live as a Christain, and there is no God, but have done much to help and serve others, I still win.


You only give a few options (under the false assumption that those who don't believe in him live only for themselves, this could not be further from the truth), how bout this one. If I live my life outside of the relationship, but have done much to help and serve others... Well in this case I suspect a God will accept me upon my death. If, he is more interested in me simply worshiping him than doing good while I am here, well then we all lose because that isn't what I truly thing a God would be like. If you live a good (Christian) life, with your motivation "to win" - is that what your God intends. In fact, isn't it better to live a good life with zero expectations? I view this as much more telling and suspect so would our heavenly father should he exist.

DevilDoc wrote:
Whereas the other side of the coin is a 50/50 crap shoot. I'd rather have the guarantee.


First, there are no guarantees in live, I certainly don't expect any upon my passing. Again if entrance into Heaven is based on living a life motivated by this promise, what does that say about your true spirit?

DevilDoc wrote:
I'm blessed by your comment though, and will ask the Lord on your behalf to answer your request. I don't have any power or authority by any means, but I can ask, I just hope you are willing to see or hear what He wishes to show you.


This is much appreciated DevilDoc, should I ever get an answer from the Lord I will certainly share it with the world. I don't have any powers either, but have to assume you have stronger communications with the big man upstairs than I do so thanks.

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April 18th, 2011, 11:08 pm
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Post Re: Racy Superbowl Ad Shot down by Fox.
"You only give a few options (under the false assumption that those who don't believe in him live only for themselves, this could not be further from the truth), how bout this one. If I live my life outside of the relationship, but have done much to help and serve others... Well in this case I suspect a God will accept me upon my death. If, he is more interested in me simply worshiping him than doing good while I am here, well then we all lose because that isn't what I truly thing a God would be like. If you live a good (Christian) life, with your motivation "to win" - is that what your God intends. In fact, isn't it better to live a good life with zero expectations? I view this as much more telling and suspect so would our heavenly father should he exist."



You raise a valid point here, it didn't come out necessarily as I wanted because it sounds more like a works based statement than anything else. Truth be told, salvation is a gift not something to be earned. The best example I can give of that is this: If I were to give you a 42" flat screen t.v. and you immediately reached for your wallet to try and pay me something, it would no longer be a gift. A gift is something that you receive without payment. In terms of Salvation, all we have to do is receive it, that's it. But I believe it is so simple, that we humans second guess it and say what's the catch. And this goes back to my comment about rituals and regulations that burden you. If you smoke, or chew, or date the women who do, I'm not going to tell you that you have to give that up. That is a choice you have to make, but I will let you know that behavior like that interferes with the relationship with God.

"First, there are no guarantees in live, I certainly don't expect any upon my passing. Again if entrance into Heaven is based on living a life motivated by this promise, what does that say about your true spirit?"

Because of my relationship with the Lord, and my PERSONAL experience with him, I can say I have a guarantee. You may not believe it or be able to accept it, but because it doesn't concern you directly, that's fine. But for me, I know in my heart of hearts where I'm going, and I'm excited about that. As I said yesterday, I don't want to saddle you up with religion, I would love to introduce you to a man, who loves you like a father, but not just any father, because we earthly fathers have many flaws ourselves. I'm talking about a perfect father who knows everything about you, and loves you inspite of it, and still wants you to get to know him, personally. It's POWERFUL! But until you cross the threshold, you can only take my word for it.

"This is much appreciated DevilDoc, should I ever get an answer from the Lord I will certainly share it with the world. I don't have any powers either, but have to assume you have stronger communications with the big man upstairs than I do so thanks."

Actually, I don't think there is any such thing as rank with the Lord. Just like with our own children, we love them the same, with all of our hearts. There is "birth order" if you will, but that doesn't influence our ability to call upon the father. In fact, if you are truly asking for Him to identify himself in your life, and you are reaching out, I believe your words carry more strength, because He wants you to know him. I do know him, and so I'm secure, but if you are returning, or just coming to know him, it's the picture of the prodigal son story.

I've heard that describes as a son who's had his way with the world and found it to be hard and troublesome. So he decides to return home but fears what will happen. However, unbeknownst to him, his father has been watching the horizon EVERYDAY looking for that son to return. When he sees him upon the horizon he doesn't drive him away, or chastise him for making mistakes or wasting his fortunes. He embraces him with passion, and weeps for His son has returned. He covers him with a robe, not any robe, the father's robe, saying you are my son. He gives him his ring, restoring him into the family, and then they feast! Rejoicing at the return of his son! This is how and what happens when anyone comes to know Christ!

We are welcomed back into the family! Atheist, Buddhist, Agnostics, Satan worshippers, all of em, if they come to know Christ are welcomed BACK into the family, and rejoiced over, because through Adam and Eve, we were a part of the original family!

I hope that better explains what I mean, and I will definitely be praying for you and anyone else who wishes, just shoot me a pm.

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April 19th, 2011, 8:46 am
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Post Re: Racy Superbowl Ad Shot down by Fox.
Pablo wrote:
steensn wrote:
I actually do not disagree with you Pablo on your main point. Christians try to create "gotchas' as proof God exist when they really only prove that we don;t know the answer yet. All it does is show that faith is required to believe whatever you do believe in those instances. I personally take those "How did that happen?" instances and it does enforce my belief that God exist and had to have a hand involved. Toyou, you really don't find it as proof, but you certainly must agree it is a whole that obviously allows for God to exist in if ones belief is such.

I cannot fathom a creation without God based on the information we have on hand. It reinforces my belief in the Biblical God. But I can agree that it doesn't proove anything.


Thanks for taking my post the right way steensn, I wasn't sure how it would come across, and I'm very impressed by the openess in your response. I'm trying to point out where folks like Sly and myself are coming from. As a former believer, I also understand how things we see as non-proof do serve to reinforce your existing beliefs - there are still plenty of things that we can't explain via science and one's belief systems sure are a nice way to fill in those gaps (just one more example why it is much more difficult to be a non-believer).

Actually, I don't need physical evidence to believe, although that would help. I would need a spiritual experience in a rational state of mind. So God, if you are reading this Lionbacker forum (and it tends to be a pretty good read most of the time cause I'm sure even you have trouble figuring out why 1) we are still fans of this club adn 2) how this draft will really play out), you know what to do to turn me into a believer, I leave my faith in your quite capable hands...


I'm an honest guy, some people don't expect that. I'm an open book which certainly not typical in life let alone the internets.

All I expect to get is acknowledgement that there is a gap in our understanding of how things happened and worked that no one can explain to provide proof for how any of it happened. I certainly can provide as much circumstantial evidence as one can handle, but I must admit it at best gives more plausibility to my belief. My faith isn't a gap filler like some would like to say (I know you are not). The gap ONLY serves to reinforce my beliefs as a plausible explination not based on something that I just made up but from thousands of years of evidence and people who came before me.

Unlike you (well so it seems by your post), I have had numerous spiritual experiances in a very rational state of mind, things that simply by chance are not plausable. I as well am one that learns from other people's mistakes and experiances and take them very seriously (I always thought the "It's my mistake to make" argument was about the lamest excuse ever to be dumb). I know people that have had the most incredible encounters with God and had amazing things happen in their life that are just not plausible to be account of accident or confusion. I could fill a thread way way way past the girly thread with these stories and encounters that just have no explination that is plausible, except for some outside the realm of this universe intervention.

I was clear before, I am more likely to become and athiest than swap to another belief system. If all the circumstantial evidence, fulfilled prophecy, spiritiual encounters, obvious miracles, etc. are not true, then no other belief is going to feel real to me. I'd have no choice but to disregard all spiritual faith. I'm open to proof or a logical argument that changes my world view, but I can only be as open as my life experiences will allow. Some here want to act as if I'm not ready to switch to Mormonism tomorrow then I'm not open minded. That is unrealistic nonsense...

I'm open to my faith being wrong, but I am also honest enough to say that it will take a HEAP LOAD of counter proof and life experiences to sway me another way. I'm and engineer by creation (the good Lord wasn't gonna let me be a English major or writer...), I think in terms of evidence and logical arguments. Each experience I have is another "datapoint" that sustains my faith. So far, I have had so many "datapoints" that it is going to be tough to disregard them. Doesn't mean I'm not willing to hear out or look at the counter arguments.

It only means it is going to take more than BS questioning of things easily explained with an open mind to pursuade a change in belief. As you, I don't need physical evidence and that is concistent with how most people choose their faith. Those saying they need physical evidence are not saying you need physical evidence as a requirement to believe something but they need physical evidence to CHANGE their faith. If physical evidence was required by them then they wouldn't believe anything because you can't prove something doesn't exist and we have no means yet of proving the past. It is a little bit of a Red Herring acting as if there is some standard they themselves didn't even follow.

All I attempt in these discussions is to make sure that everyone is aware of what the realty is of how they got to their faith (whatever it may be) and the reality of why we differ on our beliefs.

Some don't require physical evidence to belief, as they state, they require physical evidence to change their belief. There is not a "scientific requirement" they are trying to make, they only state what they require to change their belief. They muddy up the conversation with this false requirement for physical proof like it is the standard to which we all came to our beliefs, yet they ignore the REAL issue which is the world view they started from then requiring physical proof the change it. It detracts from the real issue, their willingness to change their world view, and puts focus on something that is not a standard they used in the first place.

Some act as if open mindedness means one needs to ignore the root cause of the issue at hand and focus on the beliefs themselves. As if we are all working from the same world view, which is clearly not true. Ignoring the axiums of what we use starting off to choose our faith is a mistake and I attempt to show that comments made are irrelevant at times because they ignore the fact they are based on a different world view. May it make me seem closed minded, I really don't care. I am not going to give up the reality of the situation just to appear open minded by incorrect standards.

Etc... I could name a 100 or more...

I'm going to be honest in conversations, with lots of TMI. If people want to close their minds to the real base issues, that is their choice, I'm not here to force them to do anything. But I'm not going to get pulled into the red herring arguments that even if I provided 100% proof it wouldn't matter because their world view wouldn't except it anyways. Wasting time on red herrings is not going to be my focus, honesty and the real problem is.

You got right to the point, to change your world view you need God to change it. When I say this, I mean it, I will be praying for God to change that in you. In fact, you will likely be prayed on by 10 guys next Monday night... so I'm warning you (see TMI). Just realize that WE get in the way too many times with red herrings on why we won't or don't believe something, not that what we are looking for isn't staring us in the face.

In the end, I know that a LARGE amount of people will no believe, I've gone past the point where I think I can change anyone's mind on the issue. I can only inform and let God do the work, like you asked him to do ;)

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April 19th, 2011, 11:22 am
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