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 Wisconsin vs. the Unions 
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Post Wisconsin vs. the Unions
Many of you know that I hate unions and always have, so I'm a bit biased here. Being a member of one for a year and a half didn't change my perspective any either. Anyways, I'm glad that the Wisconsin fiasco is casting some light upon a situation that should have been dealt with years ago. Governor Walker is attempting to lessen his state's $3.6B budget deficit by eliminating most collective bargaining by the public sector. He also wants them to contribute about 5% toward their pensions and 12% toward their health care. The horrors!

How do the greedy unions (and their liberal cronies) respond to this? By protesting at the state capital (and shutting down several school districts in the process due to too many teachers calling in sick). Furthermore, the Democrat State Senators have fled the state to prevent a quorum (60% or 20 out of 33 senators), thus disallowing any vote to take place. BTW, there are 19 Republicans in the Senate (all of whom will vote for the bill), so all they need is for one Democrat to actually show up for work to get the bill passed. The state police have been sent out to retrieve the elected officials playing hooky, but they can't cross state lines to nab those that are in Rockford, Illinois and who knows where else. Is this democracy when some elected officials refuse to do thsir job?

To make matters worse, Organizing For America, the former campaign arm for Obama, is helping to organize the protests. Obama has also spoken out about the actions Wisconsin plans to take. Kinda makes me think about Arizona and their immigration law. Shouldn't the President be respectful of a state's right to manage their own budgetary affairs without interference? I guess not when one of the President's "special interests" is involved.

It's gonna be interesting to see what happens tomorrow (or later today as the case may be) when the Tea Party shows up at the capital to counter-protest, Unfortunately, I think there will be violence involved. And despite the left wing rhetoric that the Tea Party advocates such things, that violence will originate from the union thugs (as it always seems to does, but is not reported by the media).

Meanwhile, these anti-union sentiments and bills eliminating collective bargaining are spreading to states like Ohio, Indiana, and Tennessee. Guess what? The protests are errupting there too. And it's going to grow and grow and grow, as Americans figure out that the public sector unions are bankrupting their cities, counties, and states due to underfunded pension and health liabilities. The unions are scared, so they're striking back, but they're gonna lose in the end. The public's perception of them is changing and will only grow more negative with the more stunts they attempt to pull.

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February 19th, 2011, 1:32 am
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Post Re: Wisconsin vs. the Unions
Shortly after making my original post, I saw this:
http://rebelpundit.com/2011/02/18/disgusting-barak-obamas-ofaseiu-calls-to-bloody-the-tea-party-in-madison/

I posted the link to the conservative blog that screen captured the craigslist call for leftist violence against the Tea Party because I think (hope) that craigslist will take it down.

So who is advocating violence now? Wouldn't it be nice if the lamestream media reported the truth for once? Unfortunately, most Americans will never hear about this stuff.

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February 19th, 2011, 1:56 am
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Post Re: Wisconsin vs. the Unions
IMO watching this disaster unfold provides a perfect example of how disillusioned the Left really is. They think this is some big tragedy, that this one group of people isn't going to be able to bargain on this one issue. Teachers in Wisconsin already make $51,000 a year on average (for 9 months of work mind you, and it's not even a full 9 months at that), and the ONLY thing that they're not going to be allowed to collectively bargain for under this law is their pension benefits (which are killing the entire State's budget). And for this one ordeal the Left has compared the situation to the situation in Egypt... Really??? Barak Obama has came out and bashed the State on a State issue, while championing teachers as our "neighbors" and family members (as if neighbors and family members can't be greedy, and as if we can't bash them for their greed just because they're our neighbors and family members). And now the Left has came out and implied that there is some sort of favoritism going on because Police and Fireman are exempt from the law, and police and fireman generally (according to them) vote Republican. Police and fireman are and have been traditionally exempt from these types of laws, and there are already restrictions on their collective bargaining practices. These same Leftist idiots complained when the union restriction were placed on the police and fire, but not that this law comes along they bash it for not including police and fireman... it's ridiculous and shows that they're petty, scorn and feel as if they're "entitled"...


My old labor law professor said it best (and he was UBER pro-union). He asked the question "what do labor unions want when they sit down across form the bargaining table?" The class clamoured for an answer and rattled off virtually everything that they generally ask for. He shook his head no to every answer. When the class finally gave up he summed it up in one word - "more." There's no "more" to be gotten, and cuts need to be made. These people will never learn. They've been conditioned to "deserve" "more" and they feel slighted and jaded when they don't get it.


February 20th, 2011, 3:19 pm
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Post Re: Wisconsin vs. the Unions
slybri19 wrote:
Shortly after making my original post, I saw this:
http://rebelpundit.com/2011/02/18/disgusting-barak-obamas-ofaseiu-calls-to-bloody-the-tea-party-in-madison/

I posted the link to the conservative blog that screen captured the craigslist call for leftist violence against the Tea Party because I think (hope) that craigslist will take it down.

So who is advocating violence now? Wouldn't it be nice if the lamestream media reported the truth for once? Unfortunately, most Americans will never hear about this stuff.

Really? You are using a screenshot off of craigslist as evidence. It is just as likely that the blogger made that post to use against the left.

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February 21st, 2011, 1:39 pm
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Post Re: Wisconsin vs. the Unions
What you are seeing is a much smaller picture of the overall American Culture Sickness.

We are SELFISH, we want everything we can for OUR comfort, and we want SOMEONE else to pay for it.

Unions like the government have been well documented for putting out SUBSTANDARD materials. Case in point: The government testing levels are geared towards an 8th grade level, in order to make it "fair" for everyone.
Medical car was the same way, moreso in the VA then active duty hospitals, the care was always SUB PAR. Do you remember the movie that came out in the 90's about the VETs who took over the hospital, I can't remember the name, but it illustrated the frustration for men and women who'd given so much to this country, but yet were seen as after thoughts after they were used up.

Does anyone here TRULY THINK that the laws and standards that are being forced upon us are really going to apply to the government and it's employees? Take a look at the movie "Enemy at the gate" with Jude Law, where he plays a Russian Sniper. When he is getting his awards banquet, they take pictures of a well stocked table of food, and new uniforms, in order to give the appearance that all is well. But in reality, in the trenches if you retreated you were killed by your own troops. This mentality is the very mentality that was being forced upon us. Those in power will have, and the rest of us will have not!

Getting back to the Unions, they have been well documented for terrible work ethics, and substandard products. This was discussed in another thread a couple years ago when it was being discussed how much the big 3 auto workers made compared to Toyota. Big 3 $68 - 80/ per hour including benefits, while Toyo was average $48 including benefits and putting out a better product.

Or how about this mentality. You go in and get your Union Work done, and so you start doing extra, and you get told to knock it off! You're making the rest of us look bad, if you want to keep your job you'll do what we do. REALLY!

Unions are a joke, run by crime syndicates, or used to be, and they need to be disbanded, or greatly reduced. Maybe then vehicle would be back to an affordable level!!!!

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February 21st, 2011, 4:41 pm
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Post Re: Wisconsin vs. the Unions
Stallion wrote:
Really? You are using a screenshot off of craigslist as evidence. It is just as likely that the blogger made that post to use against the left.

Yup. The left has a long history of violence and inflammatory rhetoric, but most of it goes unreported by the liberal lamestream media. Fortunately, the police separated the two protests last Saturday and there was very little violence that I know of. There was a union thug who tried pulling out the speaker wires at the Tea Party rally, but he was arrested after he became aggressive toward those attempting to stop him though.

As for the violent and inappropriate rhetoric, let's take a look at some of the libtards' signs shall we?:
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And here's a YouTube video of screencaps from Twitter calling for Governor Walker's death:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0DuqAi6gFQ&feature=player_embedded

Now, before any libtards out there call me a hypocrite, atleast I own my hypocrisy. I'm not out there preaching tolerance while being intolerant of anyone who doesn 't agree with me unlike a certain ideology that I love to hate and call out for their own bullshit. Until they admit that they are intolerant and hyprocrites, I can't possibly take anything they say seriously. :evil:

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February 21st, 2011, 10:13 pm
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Post Re: Wisconsin vs. the Unions
Working for GM, having been in the plants at GM and various suppliers, I can tell you something. Unions DO have a purpose, and I feel a very good one. They are supposed to protect the workerS (plural) to make sure that the employers don't force them to do things that are dangerous or could cause long term medical issues. They are there to make sure that the workerS (plural) get a "fair" days wage for a "fair" days work.

The problem is, modern unions, which the UAW tends to be the focus in this day and age, have surpasses their original purpose and now don't protect the workerS, but protect individuals who really don't deserve a job. The union should be supportive of a company wanting to fire a worker who is caught stealing on the job, drunk on the job, committed a crime and was imprisoned for it (not necessarily on the job), etc. They could replace that worker and they don't suffer any losses in membership. HOWEVER, that is the major problem with the union. They are interested in gaining members, to increase the size of their coffers by getting more money from those additional members, therefore being able to buy elections. The unions are a political force, and that's what they want themselves to be. Their focus has shifted. The more they can get for their members, the more other groups will be attracted to using them as their labor representation. And with the "brotherhood" mentality they push on their workers, if the union backed the firing of a worker for just cause, they'd get a black eye because the members could no longer believe in the "we are family" propoganda. After all, family members don't turn their backs on other family members.

The unions need to go back to focusing on the "fair days wage for a fair days work" mentality they started with. Paying someone $36 per hour for what they do in the plants is ridiculous. Half that is pretty fair, depending on the job and the plant. Some plants are antiquated and the working conditions are pretty poor. Some jobs are a cake walk, some are difficult. Unfortunately, because of union rules, the senior members are typically the ones doing the cake jobs, while getting paid the ridiculous wage.

Basically, I don't think unions should be abolished. However, I do think they need to undergo a complete overhaul in what they do and don't do. What they get for their members, and what is not available for negotiation. And, in effect, that is what's taking place in Wisconsin.

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February 22nd, 2011, 10:57 am
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Post Re: Wisconsin vs. the Unions
m2karateman wrote:
Basically, I don't think unions should be abolished. However, I do think they need to undergo a complete overhaul in what they do and don't do. What they get for their members, and what is not available for negotiation. And, in effect, that is what's taking place in Wisconsin.



I agree with you M2, but the problem is, after they "clean-up" a factory and "do good" (which they do) workers have to continue to pay union dues and they expect something for them. Workers expect a greater return than they're investing. They're paying a couple of thousand dollars a year, each, to the union, and they expect to get at least that back. The union has to justify their own existence and provide the worker with a return on their investment. This goes on year after year until it gets out of control.

I have worked at several prototype stamping plants that were notoriously bad at protecting their workers. A union probably would have done the shop some good upon its inception, and for the first couple of collective bargaining periods. That said, there after they would have been a detriment and they would have caused the factory to close... Its a double edged sword...


February 22nd, 2011, 11:59 am
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Post Re: Wisconsin vs. the Unions
Unions lost their place in this country around the time I stopped wearing Parachute pants. My brother is a HS science teacher in Michigan, he complains about their union all the time. There it is all about tenure, teachers who don't give a crap and don't teach (and get paid 2+ the salary) will keep their jobs when cuts are made as highly motivated teachers who are there to teach kids lose their jobs. It is a joke...

Unions don't care that it is a "global" economy and that our workers compete with those from less industrialized ones that aren't paying someone $40-$50/hr to tighten screws.

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February 22nd, 2011, 3:04 pm
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Post Re: Wisconsin vs. the Unions
Its still amazing that the topic of collective bargaining getting removed is the issue being sold to the public. The collective bargaining on pensions and health benefits (paid for by tax dollars) is the only bargaining being removed here. They're not removing the right to bargain for other areas, only the areas that are the biggest drain on the state's budget. And its the same in every state. NJ is the exact same, and Christie just gave his budget speech today and he gave a huge incentive for the democratic led house to make major reforms here, but already protests are planned. Because of the tough stance he took with the unions last year, he was able to increase school funding by $200 million this year.. Go figure. Make the tough choices now and you can compensate later if the money is available.

He keeps saying he's not running, and honestly I think there's still a long way to go in NJ, so I don't want him to run, but he might just be the best candidate in 2012. He's the only one with at least a year of taking on the unions head-on, and showed results in just the first year.


February 22nd, 2011, 6:38 pm
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Post Re: Wisconsin vs. the Unions
I'm actually very pro-union, because in a free market they're the only way to protect worker's rights. However, private sector unions are fundamentally different from public sector unions. Public sector unions exist outside of the free market and therefore I don't even think they should be legal.


February 23rd, 2011, 4:41 am
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Post Re: Wisconsin vs. the Unions
Blueskies wrote:
I'm actually very pro-union, because in a free market they're the only way to protect worker's rights. However, private sector unions are fundamentally different from public sector unions. Public sector unions exist outside of the free market and therefore I don't even think they should be legal.


So you are saying workers can't protect their own rights? Are workers forced to work for a particular company?

If I'm mistreated at work or don't feel it is a safe working environment, well lets just say I'm glad I don't have to rely on a union to protect me.

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February 23rd, 2011, 12:17 pm
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Post Re: Wisconsin vs. the Unions
Unions changed the laws so that they are relatively uneeded. They no longer fight for fairness, they are more like an agent for a pro sports athelete than anything else. Non union auto plants pay well enough and fair enough, no need to take the workers money to fight for a raise less than their union dues. Through practice, unions have been proven to be useless anymore.

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February 23rd, 2011, 12:42 pm
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Post Re: Wisconsin vs. the Unions
Blueskies wrote:
I'm actually very pro-union, because in a free market they're the only way to protect worker's rights. However, private sector unions are fundamentally different from public sector unions. Public sector unions exist outside of the free market and therefore I don't even think they should be legal.



Unions aren't the only way to protect worker's rights. Labor laws do a pretty good job, along with tort law. What bothers me about unions is that they grow to the point where they monopolize the market. It becomes a market that isn't really "free." If you look at the electrical workers union, carpenters union, etc., their salaries get blown out of proportion to the point where you can't afford to get work done. On top of that pro-union govt. officials mandate that union workers be used on a job. What does this equate to? A monopolized market that is wildly costly for the taxpayer. It's ridiculous.


February 23rd, 2011, 2:08 pm
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Post Re: Wisconsin vs. the Unions
Unions HAD a purpose, before they were corrupt. Union dues? C'mon. The union fat cats make a hell of a lot of money and do extremely little. The intent of the union is understandable...in 1960. Nowadays, it's ridiculous. The union employees (mechanics) make damn near more than I do as a management Senior Reactor Operator with a license from the NRC. I mean, really, I guess the $50K I owe in student loans, 6 years of school (with grad school), and a license (which was 10X harder than grad school), is the same as an A mechanic who does 2 hrs of work a day and has to stop when his procedure doesn't spell out something as clear as they think it should. Oh, we had a study done here at work and our mechanics do less than 2 hours of actual work every day. The only reason I make OT is because the law says I have to be here to operate, therefore they pay me.

My point - the unions protect the beatoffs and come contract time, the only words you hear is "more".

See = Jimmy Hoffa.

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February 23rd, 2011, 3:03 pm
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