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 Wisconsin vs. the Unions 
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Post Re: Wisconsin vs. the Unions
mineral723 wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqhtUTyqVOY
*back on topic.

Mineral, it seems to me that your whole objection (and many other people's objection) is based on the idea that collective bargaining is an inherently good thing. Many of us don't believe that. I'm 34 years old, and in my lifetime I've seen unions do nothing but abuse the system. I've heard argument after argument about how without unions we'd all be working in sweat shops, or that non-union employers abuse their employees. The problem is that much of that isn't based in reality. I agree that unions played an integral role in creating livable working conditions, but that was decades ago. And the idea that non-union companies abuse their employees is flat out false (at least in any systemic way). Non-union workers make wages commensurate with industry norms in pretty much every example. Even the "evil" Wal-Mart pays an average wage of more than $10/hr for full time employees.

The reality is that unions are clinging to an outdated mode of labor negotiations, and they have outlived their usefulness. Especially in the case of public employees. There is no need for a union to negotiate wages of public employees. Last I checked, the government has never been shy about paying their own people.

I've never, ever had a union, and I've managed to do pretty well by educating myself and working hard. And don't give me any of the BS that people can't afford education. EVERYONE can get student loans. Hell I just racked up over $140k in student loans in the past 2 years. I'll pay them off over the next 10 years and will be much better off in the long run. Anyone who is motivated could do the same and make a better life for them self, and they don't need a union to do it.

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April 19th, 2011, 12:38 am
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Post Re: Wisconsin vs. the Unions
Touchdown Jesus wrote:
mineral723 wrote:

Mineral, it seems to me that your whole objection (and many other people's objection) is based on the idea that collective bargaining is an inherently good thing. Many of us don't believe that. I'm 34 years old, and in my lifetime I've seen unions do nothing but abuse the system. I've heard argument after argument about how without unions we'd all be working in sweat shops, or that non-union employers abuse their employees. The problem is that much of that isn't based in reality. I agree that unions played an integral role in creating livable working conditions, but that was decades ago. And the idea that non-union companies abuse their employees is flat out false (at least in any systemic way). Non-union workers make wages commensurate with industry norms in pretty much every example. Even the "evil" Wal-Mart pays an average wage of more than $10/hr for full time employees.

The reality is that unions are clinging to an outdated mode of labor negotiations, and they have outlived their usefulness. Especially in the case of public employees. There is no need for a union to negotiate wages of public employees. Last I checked, the government has never been shy about paying their own people.

I've never, ever had a union, and I've managed to do pretty well by educating myself and working hard. And don't give me any of the BS that people can't afford education. EVERYONE can get student loans. Hell I just racked up over $140k in student loans in the past 2 years. I'll pay them off over the next 10 years and will be much better off in the long run. Anyone who is motivated could do the same and make a better life for them self, and they don't need a union to do it.

Well, I'm not trying to be a douche, but I think there is more to this than just, "I hate unions" and "you're a libtard that loves the unions." Did you watch the youtube? Did you hear his answers to the line of questioning?
Your argument is that unions are effectively draining budgets when that's simply not the case. The Gov states that Wisconsin will save zero dollars by eliminating the union. Just try to watch the video. I know it's Kucinich questioning him and not Rush Limbaugh and it aired on CSPAN and not FOX, so it might not hold your attention, but try to watch it.

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April 19th, 2011, 12:51 am
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Post Re: Wisconsin vs. the Unions
mineral723 wrote:
Well, I'm not trying to be a douche, but I think there is more to this than just, "I hate unions" and "you're a libtard that loves the unions." Did you watch the youtube? Did you hear his answers to the line of questioning?
Your argument is that unions are effectively draining budgets when that's simply not the case. The Gov states that Wisconsin will save zero dollars by eliminating the union. Just try to watch the video. I know it's Kucinich questioning him and not Rush Limbaugh and it aired on CSPAN and not FOX, so it might not hold your attention, but try to watch it.

Cut the bullshit. Nowhere in my post did I mention liberals, not use the word libtard. Nor did I say I hate unions. I don't. I just think they've outlived their usefulness and are now a net drain instead of a net benefit. And for your information, I don't listen to Rush or watch Fox. I don't get any of my news from the TV. I read. From multiple sources.

I suppose I should have expected as much, as I've never really seen you back up your arguments on here. You're almost always the first person to resort to ad hominem attacks on the person you're debating instead of attacking the issue.

Yes I did watch the video. I personally don't care whether those specific provisions help reduce the budget. I don't think there needs to be a union, especially for public employees. So if this helps get rid of them, in my opinion, we will be better off. The only people hurt by this are those who were in the union and were getting wages, benefits, etc. that are better than what the industry standard is. They will likely have to come back to reality and get paid, have benefits, etc. just like the rest of us.

If you want to have a real debate, let's go. But if all you're going to do is post personal attacks and make insinuations about me, you can go f*ck yourself.

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April 19th, 2011, 9:30 am
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Post Re: Wisconsin vs. the Unions
Touchdown Jesus, I believe Mineral was talking aout me with his comments, not you. But I can see how you felt that way since he quoted your post and not one of mine. Regardless, I still hate unions and libtards, so he can say whatever he wants to about me since I don't care.

I love how Dennis Kucinich (one of the most far left libtards out there) talks about worker's rights. He believes they have a right to collective bargaining, but they don't have the right to decide whether or not to join the union and/or pay dues. Anybody else notice the hypocrisy? :lol:

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April 20th, 2011, 7:31 am
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Post Re: Wisconsin vs. the Unions
As I've always known, union leadership believes in communism. Hell, one of their slogans - "Workers of the World Unite" was started by communists. So, without further adieu:
Pajamas Media wrote:
SEIU drops mask, goes full commie
May 6, 2011 - 11:10 am -

A May Day rally in Los Angeles, co-sponsored by the SEIU and various communist groups, as well as other unions, reflected yet another step in the normalization of self-identified communist and socialist ideologies in the Obama era. Not only did the SEIU help to organize the rally in conjunction with communists, they marched side-by-side with communists, while union members carried communist flags, communists carried union signs, and altogether there was no real way to tell the two apart.

Southern California citizen journalist and photographer “Ringo” was on hand to record the day’s events, and posted a full-length photo essay on his site Ringo’s Pictures. To bring this important photo essay to a wider audience, I present here a small selection of Ringo’s May Day pictures; visit his site to see dozens more photos from the rally.



http://pajamasmedia.com/zombie/2011/05/06/seiu-drops-mask-goes-full-commie/

This picture explains it all:
Image

I am NOT saying that all union members are communists, just that most of their leadership are.

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May 6th, 2011, 10:05 pm
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