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 Wisconsin vs. the Unions 
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Post Re: Wisconsin vs. the Unions
I think people here are mixing what is happening with losing freedoms that don't exist.

The gov't isn't shutting down unions, they are stopping THEIR employees from being in unions. The gov't is not a for profit company, there is no $$$ profit to split or work to get. The ov't has to offer survaces and they have to do it by charging a bunch of taxes and paying a lot or reducing their cost and having lesser taxes. Wisconsin chose to the later and are putting it financial structures to allow them to continue their services.

They are saying "we cannot afford top talent so if you want to make more money go to someone willing to paay you for your talent." It's like UPS having fixed wages based on job and experience. Heck, it is like the unions forcing a fixed salary structure based on experience and rank...

Either way, the gov't isn't trampling any rights and it really has nothing to do with unions, but more about the gov't getting their salaries under control. If they aren't competitive in wages, then they will get lesser talent. Jobs are like a perpetual FA, just go to the higher team if that is important to you. I think this whole "unions suck" or "unions are the backbone of America" discussion is total BS...

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March 15th, 2011, 11:06 am
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Post Re: Wisconsin vs. the Unions
but...but...but Unions DO suck! lol


March 15th, 2011, 11:48 am
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Post Re: Wisconsin vs. the Unions
regularjoe12 wrote:
but...but...but Unions DO suck! lol


That ius a side fact that isn't relevent ;)

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March 15th, 2011, 12:57 pm
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Post Re: Wisconsin vs. the Unions
regularjoe12 wrote:
Look I am not a fan of the governement stepping in and telling people what they can and cant do..but SOMETHING has to be done about the unions. They have become too powerful and hamstrung our economy. You think Unions are so great??? Come to Flint...Ill take you block by block and tell you how Unions are the #1 cause for one of the most industious cities in America turning into a crime ridden crack house filled hole in the world. People can Blaim GM all they want but what rational human being would pay 10,000 people 15-20 an hour MORE than what they are worth??


Thanks Unions! Thanks for Guarenteeing that people can got to work DRUNK OFF THEIR rectum and still have a job! Thanks for making entitlted employees a higher prriority than making a quality product, or a company profitable.....sorry Mineral...While Im against government control.....by far and away the Unions of today are a MUCH greater evil.

Yeah, I'll go to Flint. Make sure you don't leave out the part where the unions upheld workers' rights and made the city of Flint a great place to live. Then you can leave out how unions lost control in the late 1980s and jobs were sent to Mexico and closed down Flint's GM Headquarters.
When unions lost control, jobs were sent to Mexico, Flint became a graveyard. A trip to Flint is just going to embolden my stance of being pro-union.

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March 15th, 2011, 9:36 pm
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Post Re: Wisconsin vs. the Unions
mineral723 wrote:
regularjoe12 wrote:
Look I am not a fan of the governement stepping in and telling people what they can and cant do..but SOMETHING has to be done about the unions. They have become too powerful and hamstrung our economy. You think Unions are so great??? Come to Flint...Ill take you block by block and tell you how Unions are the #1 cause for one of the most industious cities in America turning into a crime ridden crack house filled hole in the world. People can Blaim GM all they want but what rational human being would pay 10,000 people 15-20 an hour MORE than what they are worth??


Thanks Unions! Thanks for Guarenteeing that people can got to work DRUNK OFF THEIR rectum and still have a job! Thanks for making entitlted employees a higher prriority than making a quality product, or a company profitable.....sorry Mineral...While Im against government control.....by far and away the Unions of today are a MUCH greater evil.

Yeah, I'll go to Flint. Make sure you don't leave out the part where the unions upheld workers' rights and made the city of Flint a great place to live. Then you can leave out how unions lost control in the late 1980s and jobs were sent to Mexico and closed down Flint's GM Headquarters.
When unions lost control, jobs were sent to Mexico, Flint became a graveyard. A trip to Flint is just going to embolden my stance of being pro-union.


Unions have NO control over how many jobs are kept, and where they are kept. They have absolutely no bargaining rights over jobs, and they never have. Unions never had any control over jobs going to Mexico, it is an entirely different issue (see NAFTA).


March 15th, 2011, 10:10 pm
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Post Re: Wisconsin vs. the Unions
wjb21ndtown wrote:
mineral723 wrote:
regularjoe12 wrote:
Look I am not a fan of the governement stepping in and telling people what they can and cant do..but SOMETHING has to be done about the unions. They have become too powerful and hamstrung our economy. You think Unions are so great??? Come to Flint...Ill take you block by block and tell you how Unions are the #1 cause for one of the most industious cities in America turning into a crime ridden crack house filled hole in the world. People can Blaim GM all they want but what rational human being would pay 10,000 people 15-20 an hour MORE than what they are worth??


Thanks Unions! Thanks for Guarenteeing that people can got to work DRUNK OFF THEIR rectum and still have a job! Thanks for making entitlted employees a higher prriority than making a quality product, or a company profitable.....sorry Mineral...While Im against government control.....by far and away the Unions of today are a MUCH greater evil.

Yeah, I'll go to Flint. Make sure you don't leave out the part where the unions upheld workers' rights and made the city of Flint a great place to live. Then you can leave out how unions lost control in the late 1980s and jobs were sent to Mexico and closed down Flint's GM Headquarters.
When unions lost control, jobs were sent to Mexico, Flint became a graveyard. A trip to Flint is just going to embolden my stance of being pro-union.


Unions have NO control over how many jobs are kept, and where they are kept. They have absolutely no bargaining rights over jobs, and they never have. Unions never had any control over jobs going to Mexico, it is an entirely different issue (see NAFTA).

With all due respect unions DO have a part in sending jobs elsewhere......they keep asking for more, more, more...more money, more benefits, more....and it doesn't stop until the employers are forced to find more fiscally responsible alternatives.

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March 16th, 2011, 9:36 am
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Post Re: Wisconsin vs. the Unions
wjb21ndtown wrote:
mineral723 wrote:
regularjoe12 wrote:
Look I am not a fan of the governement stepping in and telling people what they can and cant do..but SOMETHING has to be done about the unions. They have become too powerful and hamstrung our economy. You think Unions are so great??? Come to Flint...Ill take you block by block and tell you how Unions are the #1 cause for one of the most industious cities in America turning into a crime ridden crack house filled hole in the world. People can Blaim GM all they want but what rational human being would pay 10,000 people 15-20 an hour MORE than what they are worth??


Thanks Unions! Thanks for Guarenteeing that people can got to work DRUNK OFF THEIR rectum and still have a job! Thanks for making entitlted employees a higher prriority than making a quality product, or a company profitable.....sorry Mineral...While Im against government control.....by far and away the Unions of today are a MUCH greater evil.

Yeah, I'll go to Flint. Make sure you don't leave out the part where the unions upheld workers' rights and made the city of Flint a great place to live. Then you can leave out how unions lost control in the late 1980s and jobs were sent to Mexico and closed down Flint's GM Headquarters.
When unions lost control, jobs were sent to Mexico, Flint became a graveyard. A trip to Flint is just going to embolden my stance of being pro-union.


Unions have NO control over how many jobs are kept, and where they are kept. They have absolutely no bargaining rights over jobs, and they never have. Unions never had any control over jobs going to Mexico, it is an entirely different issue (see NAFTA).


I'd argue that to a degree. When Unions Are clammoring for higher pay raises to guys making 30 bucks an hour to screw in 4 bolts over and over again, They FORCE a companies hand in finding employment recources in other areas. I'm going to say it..and it's going to piss people off. GM shop workers became grossly overpaid, causing a rediculously higher prices on thier products, and an extremly high overhead for said overpriced product, and you can thank the Unions for that!


March 16th, 2011, 9:39 am
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Post Re: Wisconsin vs. the Unions
Hahahaha... Wags and RJ,

You do realize that you're arguing the same point that I'm making, right? Mineral was saying that Unions have a POSITIVE effect on keeping jobs here, through "control." However, there is absolutely no bargaining rights over the number of employees that a company has on its payroll. There is no bargaining control over sending jobs over seas.

Now, if you want to argue that there is a negative externality or negative effect of the higher wages that collective bargaining brings and that negative effect sends jobs over-seas, I'm right there with you...

But Mineral, there was no "control" lost that caused jobs to be taken from Flint, that is some leftist union crap that is brainwashing you.


March 16th, 2011, 12:20 pm
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Post Re: Wisconsin vs. the Unions
oh yeah WJB...sorry bout the is misconception, but I am agreeing with you allmost totally. the only thing I disadgreed with was the part about unions not having ANY control. If they would have been able to compramise a little bit more and realized that a buisness needs to make a poffit in order to maintain the jobs of said "protected" employees there would be a lot more american workers in the autombile (and other) industries.


March 16th, 2011, 2:04 pm
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Post Re: Wisconsin vs. the Unions
regularjoe12 wrote:
oh yeah WJB...sorry bout the is misconception, but I am agreeing with you allmost totally. the only thing I disadgreed with was the part about unions not having ANY control. If they would have been able to compramise a little bit more and realized that a buisness needs to make a poffit in order to maintain the jobs of said "protected" employees there would be a lot more american workers in the autombile (and other) industries.

Pretty much what I was trying (miserably) to say.
Thx! 8)

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March 16th, 2011, 2:08 pm
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Post Re: Wisconsin vs. the Unions
regularjoe12 wrote:
oh yeah WJB...sorry bout the is misconception, but I am agreeing with you allmost totally. the only thing I disadgreed with was the part about unions not having ANY control. If they would have been able to compramise a little bit more and realized that a buisness needs to make a poffit in order to maintain the jobs of said "protected" employees there would be a lot more american workers in the autombile (and other) industries.


I agree. My cousin has been indoctrinated by the unions, to the point of having a Phd. in "management studies" all on the tab of Oldmobile, and he provided little to no actual service to the company in his over 20 years there (he was in a program that paid him to go to school, and paid for his classes, he is now retired and collects a pension, having spent less than 5 years of actual work for the company). He and I had a discussion about 3-4 years ago, and I told him that I think unions are fighting the wrong war. They're fighting a war of attrition, whereby they hold onto their wages, their benefits, their retirement plans, and lose workers (and ultimately members). He actually agreed with me.


March 16th, 2011, 2:42 pm
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Post Re: Wisconsin vs. the Unions
Maybe I missed something, but I think someone said Unions had no control over the number of people who could work at any given plant. That is absolutely untrue. Oddly enough, the Unions are very much like the Confederacy (get it....Union, Confederacy....give it a minute) in that they have been opposed to technological advancement. The more technology is added to the plant, the less jobs there are. That is something that the Unions were always fighting. They also tried to force the companies to get new programs into outdated plants rather than put new programs into more technologically advanced auto plants that required less people to get the same amount of work done. So, while the Unions can't say "this is how many people you have to keep on your payroll", they were forcing companies to keep work in outdated plants by threatening strikes. Unions were also making it difficult for companies to open new plants, because in order to build those plants the companies would have to eventually turn to other Unions to get contractors to build. At that point, the UAW would throw its weight around and get workers to slow down or even stop the building of the new plant altogether.

So, when it comes down to it, the UAW is the single most responsible entity for jobs going overseas. Why? Because they made building cars in the United States a losing proposition, and made upgrading or building new plants in the United States near to impossible, all in an effort to keep their membership levels high and their political clout as powerful as they could.

But, there's one other thing to remember. Jobs went overseas because foreign car companies were building there, and gaining tremendous profit from doing so. It was the Japanese car companies that starting getting parts in Mexico, Korea, China, etc. long before American car companies did. If the Big Three wouldn't have followed suit, they would have died long ago.

Also, many cars built overseas are NOT shipped back here to the U.S. by the Big Three. Most plants they build are intended to be for that market region, not a different one. Of course, there are cases where American car companies import those cars into the U.S., but those are few and far between.

Overall, I think most folks on here agree that the Unions priced themselves out of the U.S. market, and the car companies have had no choice but to take their business elsewhere. It happens in many global industries. I don't expect the Unions to agree to their workers getting paid pennies per hour doing jobs that will leave them crippled in a few years, but I do expect them to accept the fact that paying someone $30 per hour with a ridiculous amount of benefits to assemble car parts together is no longer a feasible proposition. I expect that they would use some common sense, rather than continually try to get blood out of a stone.

As for the city of Flint, their undoing was their own doing, much like the city of Pontiac. They hung their hat on the auto industry, gave the car companies endless breaks to build plants there, and then expected that they could force the companies to keep jobs in plants that were no longer technologically relevant. The citizens of those cities backed the Unions, not the company, and paid the price. But for a long time, both cities were properous and enjoyed much more wealth and growth than if they had thrown their hats in with some other industry. Better to have loved and lost......

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March 17th, 2011, 5:14 pm
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Post Re: Wisconsin vs. the Unions
M2K is correct about the UAW. They forced the big 3 to maintain certain employment levels in many of their contracts, even though that number of workers weren't needed. They also bargained for them to keep inefficient plants operational even though they were obsolete.

And here's more on how the union goons in Wisconsin are behaving:
Investor's.com wrote:
The New Civility: Blogger Ann Althouse’s ‘Madison Privileges Have Been Revoked’
By Ed Carson
Thu., March 17, 2011 4:54 PM ET

Ann Althouse, a blogger and University of Wisconsin law professor, has provided extensive firsthand accounts and photos — along with her husband Meade — of the Wisconsin protests and related matters.

Althouse has criticized the actions of the Democratic lawmakers who left the state as well as the behavior of some of the protesters.

Amid the numerous death threats against GOP state lawmakers, the ripping up of Democratic recall petitions and university professors musing about justifications for “political violence,” it was only a matter of time before the union/left rabble would turn their ire toward Althouse.

In an unsigned “Operation: Countertroll” screed, they declare, “Your city of Madison privileges have been revoked.”

The foul-mouthed message of intimidation is crystal-clear. This passage is (almost) profanity free:

“We are at every coffee shop on State, open to close, all the time. We will hang up wanted posters of you everywhere you like to go. We will picket on public property as close to your house as we can every day. We will harass the ever-loving sh*t out of you all the time. Campus is OCCUPIED. State Street is OCCUPIED. The Square is OCCUPIED. Vilas, Schenk’s Corners, Atwood, WillyStreet — Occupied, Occupied, Occupied, Occupied.”

The screed goes on to say that Althouse must be silent from now on and make a variety of payoffs to various left-wing causes. Otherwise, she and her husband must leave the state ... though they weren’t quite so polite.

So this is what democracy looks like?

Imagine, for a moment, that the Tea Party had done these things. I know, lots of people did imagine it!

But here’s the reality: This. Must. Stop.

And the mainstream media — which was so quick to characterize the peaceful Tea Party movement as a dangerous collection of radicals bent on inciting violence — needs to break their disgraceful silence and report on the true Madison madness.



http://blogs.investors.com/capitalhill/index.php/home/35-politicsinvesting/2523-the-new-civility-blogger-ann-althouses-madison-privileges-have-been-revoked

Since she works at UW, I can only assume that she's a member of the union herself. If this is how they treat their own, just imagine what they think about non-union members.

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March 17th, 2011, 8:09 pm
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Post Re: Wisconsin vs. the Unions
Need I say more?:
Big Government wrote:
Organized Left Plan Massive Protests for April 4th by Brett Healy

In the wake of changes to government employee unions’ power in Wisconsin and elsewhere, The Communist Party USA is working in conjunction with national labor unions and other left wing political groups to organize protests in Madison, Wisconsin and across the nation on April 4th.

Scott Marshall, Vice Chair of The Communist Party USA said his organization is working with the likes of MoveOn.org, the SEIU, the AFL-CIO and others to make April 4th, the anniversary of the assassination of the Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr., a national day of action.

“Support is beginning to grow,” said Marshall in an online meeting earlier this month. “A bunch of organizations already are hyping the idea of massive demonstrations on April 4th.”

The Community Party in particular has benefited from the recent debate over Wisconsin government employee unions’ power to collectively bargain, using the opportunity to build their ranks.

“In this struggle, the question of building the Left and building the Party has to come to the fore,” Marshall said. “Recruiting has picked up, more people are joining the Party and the broader left is getting bigger.”

The Communist Party USA leader said his members cannot just participate alongside other organizations, however. They must continue to join and help lead them.

‘We have to totally be imbedded in this movement and in these activities,” Marshall said. “Every comrade has a part to play.”

During the recent demonstrations in Madison, several protesters invoked images of Dr King, who was shot in Memphis, Tennessee on April 4, 1968, while in the city to meet and march in support of striking African American sanitation workers.


http://biggovernment.com/bhealy/2011/03/23/organized-left-plan-massive-protests-for-april-4th/

If you don't believe me or "that evil Breitbart's conservative site", just go to CPUSA's website, or to the Democratic Socialists of America's website, or to any other socialist/communist website you can find. They are working hand in hand with the far left libtards at every turn. Just go to any of their sites and take a look around. You'll see what I mean. In essence, there is little to no difference between the liberals and the socialists/communists anymore.

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March 23rd, 2011, 10:24 pm
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Post Re: Wisconsin vs. the Unions
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqhtUTyqVOY
*back on topic.

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April 19th, 2011, 12:07 am
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