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 Tsunami Hits Japan After Massive Earthquake.... 
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Post Re: Tsunami Hits Japan After Massive Earthquake....
steensn wrote:
Why do people take this out of context and blankly apply it to everything?

Because I wanted you to get your panties in a bunch and it looks like I succeeded. :lol:

Seriously though, I'm in favor of an "All of the above" energy approach. This includes oil, nuclear, natural gas, coal, wind, solar, biofuels, etc. And the more of them that can be produced in the US, the better. I'd also like to see subsidies and tax breaks phased out for all of them as well. If a particular energy source isn't economically viable on it's own merits, oh well.

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March 28th, 2011, 10:07 pm
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Post Re: Tsunami Hits Japan After Massive Earthquake....
wjb21ndtown wrote:
I've never been within a 1/4 mile of one, but apparently they're giving someone a headache.


Yes, you seem willing to believe anything to support a predisposed position.

wjb21ndtown wrote:
I have seen them litter a landscape though, and they ARE much uglier than one power plant that's often tucked away in an industrial part of a City somewhere.


But that is the point, with all the need for more energy it will STOP being one powe plant tucked away in the corner. Our growing enegry demand is going to force these to be stacked up in places where people are going to be just as ticked.

What I am really surprised to hear is that you're willing to ignore the deaths caused by the other options for the sake of "eye sores." While I cannot disagree that a mountain prestin with nothing on it is more beautiful than one littered with man made buildings, the tradeoff is stop using electricity or build plants that cause more deaths:

http://www.catf.us/resources/publicatio ... m_Coal.pdf

Quote:
The study found that over 13,000 deaths and tens of thousands of cases of chronic bronchitis, acute bronchitis, asthma, congestive heart failure, acute myocardial infarction, dysrhythmia, ischemic heart disease, chronic lung disease, and pneumonia each year are attributable to fine particle pollution from U.S. coal plant emissions.


So evidently, it is better to have a plant that kills people no matter where you put it than a few complaints an annoyances because you put a turbine too close to someones house. Just don't put it so close to peoples houses and the problem is solved!

wjb21ndtown wrote:
So they should take down the SF wind turbines? I would love to see that happen. Personally I don't understand why they don't build more offshore, but I'm guessing it is because the cost/benefit isn't there.


They keep trying, the issue is that the salt water pretty much destroys anything and if something breaks you can't exactly just drive your truck to the tower.

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March 29th, 2011, 10:08 am
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Post Re: Tsunami Hits Japan After Massive Earthquake....
slybri19 wrote:
steensn wrote:
Why do people take this out of context and blankly apply it to everything?

Because I wanted you to get your panties in a bunch and it looks like I succeeded. :lol: .



You don't bother me, you are full of crap 24/7. I know you know better and are just having. WJB on the other hand seems to REALLY beleive this stuff and not have any desire to look at the situation in context and I have no idea what has gotten over him lately. He thinks they are ugly and he has the right to, no argument there, but because they put a few up in a location that he didn't want them suddenly they are a headache causing, bird killing menace that is not a better option than a person killing, disease causing coal plant.

It's like context and logic is thrown out the window for some small issue...

slybri19 wrote:
Seriously though, I'm in favor of an "All of the above" energy approach. This includes oil, nuclear, natural gas, coal, wind, solar, biofuels, etc. And the more of them that can be produced in the US, the better. I'd also like to see subsidies and tax breaks phased out for all of them as well. If a particular energy source isn't economically viable on it's own merits, oh well.


We are in agreement... but just a warning... that means your gas is going to get more expensive ;) As well as the perminent subsidies for coal and other sources.

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March 29th, 2011, 10:43 am
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Post Re: Tsunami Hits Japan After Massive Earthquake....
Where do you get this idea that they're going to have to build so many coal plants that they're going to litter our country-side like wind turbines currently do? I personally would like to see more nuclear power, but that's just me. IMO we should at least double our nuke power plants. I would also like to see some more nat. gas stuff going on. These wind turbines, however, don't seem like they're working out very well. Relatively small out-put vs the eyesore is enough for me. Everything else they have going against them is just gravy to my POV.


March 29th, 2011, 1:25 pm
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Post Re: Tsunami Hits Japan After Massive Earthquake....
Don't seem to work out well? Based on what, a hand full of bad locations? WJB, you are going to have to do better than take the exception to make these assumptions. It is just preposterous...

I never said it was 1 for 1... but the fact remains we have to build more. Somehow you think an "eyesore" in your eyes is wors than thousands of people dying and a grid that cannot react to changing loads.

It's ust amazing to hear someone say "don't seem like they're working out very well." I'm going to start making statements about thing's I've only read a hadnful or articles about and never experienced first hand. Seems to be the waht people learn in college to become lawyers...

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March 29th, 2011, 1:51 pm
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Post Re: Tsunami Hits Japan After Massive Earthquake....
steensn wrote:
Don't seem to work out well? Based on what, a hand full of bad locations? WJB, you are going to have to do better than take the exception to make these assumptions. It is just preposterous...

I never said it was 1 for 1... but the fact remains we have to build more. Somehow you think an "eyesore" in your eyes is wors than thousands of people dying and a grid that cannot react to changing loads.

It's ust amazing to hear someone say "don't seem like they're working out very well." I'm going to start making statements about thing's I've only read a hadnful or articles about and never experienced first hand. Seems to be the waht people learn in college to become lawyers...


Steen, these things are littered throughout California, and it makes me sick. If you want a wind farm in the mid-west, away from the expressways, part of farmers farms, in BFE where people don't have to deal with them, that's cool. Siberia, the Arctic? Go for it! As long as it doesn't hurt the environment/animal population. But near Palm Springs Desert, SF, etc., they should be torn down. The utility isn't worth the cost for me. I don't need studies, I don't need "facts" my opinion is they look like chit and should be torn down. That's enough for me. I would prefer that thousands of these garbage devices were replaced by ONE power plant.


March 29th, 2011, 3:00 pm
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Post Re: Tsunami Hits Japan After Massive Earthquake....
Well most of them ARE going up in BFE, just an FYI. California was the first to adopt the technology so they got a head start:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power ... ted_States

As of 31 December 2010 (2010 -12-31)[update], the top five states with the most wind capacity installed are:[10]

Texas (10,085 MW)
Iowa (3,675 MW)
California (3,177 MW)
Minnesota (2,192 MW)
Washington (2,104 MW)
The top five states according to percentage of generation by wind in 2010 are:[11]

Iowa (15.4%)
North Dakota (12.0%)
Minnesota (9.7%)
South Dakota (8.3%)
Kansas (7.2%)

---------

Image

Besides the fact that you don't live in California and most wind turbines in California are in BFE...

Altamont Pass:
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Altamont+ ... 30033&z=15

Tehachapi Pass:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source= ... 24475&z=10

San Gorgonio:
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=San ... 24475&z=10


The LOCALS decided that they would rather have good clean energy than coal exhaust filling up their valleys like the rest of LA.

They'd rather have this:

Image

Than this:

Image

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March 29th, 2011, 3:34 pm
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Post Re: Tsunami Hits Japan After Massive Earthquake....
Quote:
Collisions with wind turbines account for about one-tenth of a percent of all "unnatural" bird deaths in the United States each year. And of all bird deaths, 30 percent are due to natural causes, like baby birds falling from nests


Quote:
Possibly the greatest indicator that wind turbines are not, in fact, bird-o-matics, is the growing number of endorsements by bird conservation groups. The American Bird Conservancy supports wind power with the caveat that bird-friendly placement and design be primary factors in construction [source: ABC]. The Wisconsin Bird Initiative states that wind turbines have a "low impact" on avian mortality compared to window glass and communication towers [source: WBCI]. And in 2006, the Audubon Society gave its figurative seal of approval to the American Wind Energy Association. The president of the national organization is quoted by Renewable Energy World as stating, "When you look at a wind turbine, you can find the bird carcasses and count them. With a coal-fired power plant, you can't count the carcasses, but it's going to kill a lot more birds" [source: REW].



http://science.howstuffworks.com/enviro ... birds1.htm

Quote:
It's easy to see why wind turbines are at least potentially hazardous for birds: Massive blades with tips spinning at up to 179 mph (80 meters per second), hundreds of feet (at least 30 meters) in the air, are an obvious problem for anything flying near them [source: MIT]. The fact is, birds do fly into the path of the blades and die a grisly death. Most of the affected birds are songbirds, and about 10 percent are birds of prey like raptors [source: ABC]. It's the raptors that started all the protests, when hundreds of carcasses were found strewn across Northern California's Altamont Pass wind farm.

Bird conservationists took great interest, and the misconception that wind turbines pose a major threat to bird populations grew from there. By applying the mortality rates at Altamont Pass to every wind farm in the United States, the bird-mortality figures became extremely inflated. In fact, Altamont Pass is a unique case of a wind farm that is truly a significant hazard to birds.

Altamont Pass is different for two main reasons: turbine location and turbine design.

There are more than 4,000 wind turbines at the Altamont Pass energy farm in California. It's one of the first wind farms in the United States, and its 20-year-old turbines are accordingly out-of-date. Their design has long since been abandoned: Latticework blades with small surface area are far from efficient for energy generation, and far from safe for birds. The lattice structure actually attracts large birds, because the frame makes for an excellent perch. Large birds like raptors are drawn to the blades, and collision rates are high as a result.

The other design issue is the blades' low surface area, because less surface area means the blades have to spin faster to turn the electricity-generating turbines. The faster the blades spin, the more dangerous they are to birds flying near them. It's unlikely that a bird that finds itself in the vicinity of the blades could ever make it through when they're spinning so fast.

As if this weren't enough to make old wind farms a bird nightmare, the Altamont Pass power plant was built smack dab in the middle of a major migratory route for large birds. The area also houses the world's largest single population of golden eagles [source: USA Today]. With thousands of dated wind turbines sprawling across a super-high-population bird area, it's inevitable that birds and turbines will meet. A current estimate puts the number of birds killed by turbines at Altamont Pass to be about 4,700 each year, several hundred of which are raptors [source: USA Today].

The Altamont Pass wind farm kills far more birds than any other farm in the United States. The total at that single wind farm with 4,000 turbines is 4,700 fatalities; the total for all wind farms in the United States, with more than 25,000 turbines in operation at any given time, is 10,000 to 40,000 per year [source: Reuters].

­Even though up to 1 billion birds die each year by flying into windows, no one is brushing off the tens of thousands of turbine-related deaths every year. So what are we doing to lower that number? On the next page, we'll see what changes are being implemented to save the birds.


http://science.howstuffworks.com/enviro ... -birds.htm

Man-made structure/technology
Associated bird deaths per year (U.S.)

Feral and domestic cats
Hundreds of millions [source: AWEA]

Power lines
130 million -- 174 million [source: AWEA]

Windows (residential and commercial)
100 million -- 1 billion [source: TreeHugger]

Pesticides
70 million [source: AWEA]

Automobiles
60 million -- 80 million [source: AWEA]

Lighted communication towers
40 million -- 50 million [source: AWEA]

Wind turbines
10,000 -- 40,000 [source: ABC]

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March 29th, 2011, 3:36 pm
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Post Re: Tsunami Hits Japan After Massive Earthquake....
So you agree then, that we should tear down the ones in more scenic areas, and better design the placement of these things?


March 30th, 2011, 11:48 am
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Post Re: Tsunami Hits Japan After Massive Earthquake....
I'm saying that if we decide that using less power isn't an option, the locals need to decide what type of power they want and the consiquences. If they decide that they'd rather have wind turbines litering their hills than coal plant smog filling their valleys that is their choice (and a good one at that). Unless you decide to NOT create the need for more electricity, then you are faced with trade-offs. Those of us that see the reprocussions of petrol based mass transportation and coal based electrical production often in some areas, see that if you can't see the hills through the smog, what good is having that view not littered with wind turbines?

But in general, I do agree we can be smart to where we put these things in large numbers. Then when we are faced with circumstances that are no ideal sometimes you have to make a decision based on tradeoffs.

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March 30th, 2011, 1:21 pm
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Post Re: Tsunami Hits Japan After Massive Earthquake....
If anyone wants pics of the Japan plant (I got these through my work email), PM me and I can email them to you. I'd rather not post them on photobucket or something, for various reasons.

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March 30th, 2011, 2:45 pm
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Post Re: Tsunami Hits Japan After Massive Earthquake....
I'd love them.

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March 30th, 2011, 2:49 pm
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Post Re: Tsunami Hits Japan After Massive Earthquake....
Me too conversion!

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March 30th, 2011, 3:26 pm
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Post Re: Tsunami Hits Japan After Massive Earthquake....
I was thinking sweet... till you realize it is impending doom for some people...

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March 30th, 2011, 3:44 pm
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Post Re: Tsunami Hits Japan After Massive Earthquake....
FYI - here's some more aerial shots of the plant

http://cryptome.org/eyeball/daiichi-npp ... photos.htm

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April 1st, 2011, 1:02 pm
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