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 Wake up, Michiganders. 
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Post Wake up, Michiganders.
"Gov. Snyder is seeking emergency powers that would enable him to 1) unilaterally declare a “financial emergency”, 2) disincorporate entire municipal governments, 3) dismiss elected officials with no replacement election to follow, 4) seize control of local civil services, 5) hand taxpayer money, services and POWERS to private, for-profit firms."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41998710/ns/politics-more_politics/

Yeah, so what does everyone think about this? Now a reality.

You know what this sounds like?
Ehhhh... Nevermind, you can figure it out.

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March 13th, 2011, 5:56 pm
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Post Re: Wake up, Michiganders.
I wish they had done this to Detroit back in the 1970s...


March 13th, 2011, 6:05 pm
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Post Re: Wake up, Michiganders.
Blueskies wrote:
I wish they had done this to Detroit back in the 1970s...

Today, Democrats tried to amend the bill by allowing those appointed officials a maximum salary of $159,000 a year. Republicans denied this amendment, effectively giving no salary cap on officials the corporations choose to appoint.
Am I really the only one alarmed here?

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March 13th, 2011, 6:11 pm
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Post Re: Wake up, Michiganders.
I don't like the precedent this sets, to be sure. But I'll judge on a case-by-case basis. Some of our cities could probably be better managed by a for profit corporation, to be honest.

Anyway, this bill replaces another which was passed in 1990 and is very similar:
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents ... f-1990.pdf


March 13th, 2011, 6:20 pm
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Post Re: Wake up, Michiganders.
Blueskies wrote:
I don't like the precedent this sets, to be sure. But I'll judge on a case-by-case basis. Some of our cities could probably be better managed by a for profit corporation, to be honest.

Anyway, this bill replaces another which was passed in 1990 and is very similar:
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents ... f-1990.pdf

That's not the same thing at all.
Snyder has allowed himself the sole authority to declare a financial emergency, thereby allowing a sponsoring PRIVATE FOR-PROFIT corporation (like say... Wal-Mart) to dissolve the local government and appoint its own corporate officials and PAY THEM WITH YOUR tax dollars.
So if he declares the Detroit Public School System a financial emergency, a private company (Wal-Mart for example again) can bail out the school system, elect its own school board and teachers and... YOU PAY THEM! Entire cities can be bought this way. Corporations appoint mayors and city officials - all without a vote. Yeah, this is different.

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March 13th, 2011, 6:34 pm
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Post Re: Wake up, Michiganders.
This is not going to go down without a fight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJbT0sgaFnI

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March 13th, 2011, 6:37 pm
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Post Re: Wake up, Michiganders.
mineral723 wrote:
This is not going to go down without a fight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJbT0sgaFnI

Let me reiterate this...

The Gov can declare your city in a state of financial emergency, then Dow Chemical can essentially "buy" your city and elect its own mayor, make up its own laws and policies... All without your approval. You vote for NONE of it. You own land and a house in the city, pay taxes in the city, send your children to school in that city, but you don't elect the official that's appointed to run your city. They are appointed by a corporation. It will cease to matter if they are corrupt or if they are incompetent because you'd have no choice.

I don't care if you think I'm a liberal queer or a communist, this isn't an issue between Dems and Repubs. This is an issue of basic democracy. Freedom of our elected officials? Come on.

Does anyone else notice that this doesn't line up with a so-called "democracy?"

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March 13th, 2011, 7:02 pm
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Post Re: Wake up, Michiganders.
Mineral, while I agree with some of your concerns, I think you're blowing it totally out of proportion. Since the Emergency Financial Manager Bill was passed in 1990, it has only been used 8 times. It is reserved for "emergencies" and not upon the Governor's whim. While this law relaxes a few of the requirements needed to appoint a manager, a city, municipality, or school district still must be totally screwed up before this new law will come into play.

What it comes down to is this: If a city, municipality, or school district is so financially irresponsible and incompetent that they have to crawl to the state begging for aid, then they may need the help of an emergency financial manager. If they are fully capable of handling their own finances, then they do not. So, all they have to do is embrace financial responsibility to prevent losing control (and power) under this statute. It shouldn't be that difficult to do. Then again, some libtards just can't help themselves when it comes to the expansion of government. Just look at Detroit and you'll see what I mean.

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March 13th, 2011, 7:17 pm
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Post Re: Wake up, Michiganders.
slybri19 wrote:
Mineral, while I agree with some of your concerns, I think you're blowing it totally out of proportion. Since the Emergency Financial Manager Bill was passed in 1990, it has only been used 8 times. It is reserved for "emergencies" and not upon the Governor's whim. While this law relaxes a few of the requirements needed to appoint a manager, a city, municipality, or school district still must be totally screwed up before this new law will come into play.

What it comes down to is this: If a city, municipality, or school district is so financially irresponsible and incompetent that they have to crawl to the state begging for aid, then they may need the help of an emergency financial manager. If they are fully capable of handling their own finances, then they do not. So, all they have to do is embrace financial responsibility to prevent losing control (and power) under this statute. It shouldn't be that difficult to do. Then again, some libtards just can't help themselves when it comes to the expansion of government. Just look at Detroit and you'll see what I mean.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
So... We'll use your beloved Detroit as an example.
Detroit is in economic ruin, correct? Snyder declares financial emergency on the city. The Dow Chemical Company steps in and says, "We'll grant the city of Detroit (x) amount of dollars." Dow Chemical fires Mayor Bing and the rest of the city's elected officials and is now free to govern the city of Detroit in any fashion they wish.
It may seem far-fetched, but that's exactly what this will allow.
I read the bill that passed in 1990 and it is different. In that original bill, there was no mention of private for-profit companies dissolving local governments and installing their own appointed officials without a vote. This bill clearly paves the way for that.
I don't care what party you belong to or what moral ground you stand on, this is just not right.

This has absolutely NOTHING to do with the expansion of government. I believe a citizen that pays taxes in his or her city should be afforded a public school system and certain city services... Police, Fire Department, Waste Management. As taxpayers, that's what we pay for. This is not a radical liberal idea, this is how municipalities work.
But if your city is "bought," your police, your local legislators.... Will all be employees of Dow or Wal-Mart or Microsoft... The highest bidder. Private police force? It could happen. This bill ensures that it CAN happen.

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March 13th, 2011, 8:35 pm
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Post Re: Wake up, Michiganders.
I haven't read the actual bills yet, but I have read about a dozen articles on them from both sides. Like you, I have a problem (if true) that the emergency manager can toss aside the elected officials and name replacements at will. I doubt that he would name an entire corporation to assume control as you suggested however. Personally, I would be more in favor of the emergency manager being able to over-rule the mayor/city council/school board on fiscal issues, while they remain in place to oversee everything else. From my understanding though, the Senate and House bills have yet to be reconciled, so we aren't sure what the final bill will entail yet. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

The biggest problem that I see at the local level are the public sector unions. As I've stated before in other threads, I don't have much of a problem with private sector unions, but there is absolutely no reason for them to exist in the government workforce. Even the progressive hero FDR was against them and said that it would lead to a conflict of interest. Besides, civil service work rules guarantee the rights that unions fought for in the private sector in the first place, so it's redundancy.

I simply ask why garbagemen should be public sector workers who get free healthcare for life and huge pensions at the taxpayers expense? That is a function that would be much more efficiently run in the private sector. The same goes for the Water Department in Detroit and elsewhere. Other utilities such as electricity, gas, and phones are run privately, so why not water? Once again, it would run more efficiently in private hands. The same can be said for the landscapers who plow the roads and mow the grass. Why do they have to be government employees at taxpayer expense? Furthermore, if the private contractor isn't doing the job, just fire them. Try doing that with a government employee and you get to the heart of the problem.

Whether libtards want to admit it or not, they are in bed with the unions, which leads to the fiscal problems that all levels of government face today. The unions collect dues from their members, which they then send to Democrat's campaign efforts. Once they are elected or re-elected, the unions then demand higher wages and benefits from them for supporting their campaign. Can anyone say "special interest" or "conflict of interest"? I can. While a private sector union collectively bargains with a corporation who looks out for the best interests of it's shareholders, who looks out for the best interests of the shareholders (taxpayers) negotiating with the public sector unions? The answer is nobody and that's why they shouldn't exist.

Using Detroit as an example, which has been run by Democrats since 1971, is it any wonder that they're in the finanical difficulties that they find themselves in today? The more the unions pumped into their campaigns, the more they gave in return, until they finally went broke. Can anybody say "Greece"? I can. It's time to fix the broken system and appointing Emergency Financial Managers may be the only recourse left to do so.

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March 13th, 2011, 10:33 pm
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Post Re: Wake up, Michiganders.
slybri19 wrote:
I haven't read the actual bills yet, but I have read about a dozen articles on them from both sides. Like you, I have a problem (if true) that the emergency manager can toss aside the elected officials and name replacements at will. I doubt that he would name an entire corporation to assume control as you suggested however. Personally, I would be more in favor of the emergency manager being able to over-rule the mayor/city council/school board on fiscal issues, while they remain in place to oversee everything else. From my understanding though, the Senate and House bills have yet to be reconciled, so we aren't sure what the final bill will entail yet. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

The biggest problem that I see at the local level are the public sector unions. As I've stated before in other threads, I don't have much of a problem with private sector unions, but there is absolutely no reason for them to exist in the government workforce. Even the progressive hero FDR was against them and said that it would lead to a conflict of interest. Besides, civil service work rules guarantee the rights that unions fought for in the private sector in the first place, so it's redundancy.

I simply ask why garbagemen should be public sector workers who get free healthcare for life and huge pensions at the taxpayers expense? That is a function that would be much more efficiently run in the private sector. The same goes for the Water Department in Detroit and elsewhere. Other utilities such as electricity, gas, and phones are run privately, so why not water? Once again, it would run more efficiently in private hands. The same can be said for the landscapers who plow the roads and mow the grass. Why do they have to be government employees at taxpayer expense? Furthermore, if the private contractor isn't doing the job, just fire them. Try doing that with a government employee and you get to the heart of the problem.

Whether libtards want to admit it or not, they are in bed with the unions, which leads to the fiscal problems that all levels of government face today. The unions collect dues from their members, which they then send to Democrat's campaign efforts. Once they are elected or re-elected, the unions then demand higher wages and benefits from them for supporting their campaign. Can anyone say "special interest" or "conflict of interest"? I can. While a private sector union collectively bargains with a corporation who looks out for the best interests of it's shareholders, who looks out for the best interests of the shareholders (taxpayers) negotiating with the public sector unions? The answer is nobody and that's why they shouldn't exist.

Using Detroit as an example, which has been run by Democrats since 1971, is it any wonder that they're in the finanical difficulties that they find themselves in today? The more the unions pumped into their campaigns, the more they gave in return, until they finally went broke. Can anybody say "Greece"? I can. It's time to fix the broken system and appointing Emergency Financial Managers may be the only recourse left to do so.

That's all fine and dandy, we'll agree to disagree of the necessity of unions.
The thing that REALLY pisses me off and should be pissing everyone off is another matter altogether.

What this bill could potentially do is allow Dick Snyder virtually absolute authority over municipal governments. Arguments about the unions and the collective bargaining aside, that is simply too much authority for one person to have in a state government. Unions or not, Snyder can come to my city if there is more than a 5% budget deficit, (cities with more than a 5% budget deficit are submitted to a board for review of financial emergency) claiming a state of "Financial Emergency" and "sell" it to the highest bidder. Who gives a f*ck about unions at that point? The highest bidder is free to institute city officials, fire and dissolve all city government - all without an election or a committee or your input. In other words... Your vote is obsolete. Snyder has the authority to appoint whoever he sees fit, regardless of your vote.
Unions should be the last of our concerns in this matter. Libtards and Republitards? Makes no difference. How about basic democracy? How about en efficient system of checks and balances? The entire democratic process hangs in the balance.
Forget the city workers and pension funds... What about your voice, your vote? If the retirements of city workers does nothing for your personal agenda, doesn't your vote? How would the people of this forum be able to elect the next fundamentalist Christian nutjob to their favorite position if their vote means jacksh!t?
This is a unilateral issue, don't pigeonhole it as being about sensible union legislation. It's anything but.
The protesters you will see Tuesday storming the Capital building in Lansing aren't p!ssed about unions, they're pissed about this Financial Emergency bill. We all should be pissed.

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March 13th, 2011, 11:47 pm
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Post Re: Wake up, Michiganders.
SlyBri wrote:
It's time to fix the broken system and appointing Emergency Financial Managers may be the only recourse left to do so.

I find it hard to believe that the only recourse for fixing the economy and local municipalities is to sell them and give control of every aspect of that community to the highest bidder.
And here's the kick in the balls:
In addition to appointing the officials, THEY HAVE NO SALARY CAP! Let me repeat that:
A company can now purchase an entire city (I know we've covered that part), can appoint its own legislation and its own infrastructure (can someone say "kickbacks?" I can.) and use YOUR tax dollars to pay itself whatever salary it deems appropriate and can do this for an infinite amount of time. So you don't have a say in who runs your town or how much money you're paying them to do so or for how long.
I'm pretty sure there's a better solution because that sounds like Orwellian novel.

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March 13th, 2011, 11:57 pm
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Post Re: Wake up, Michiganders.
Sounds like fascism to me

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March 15th, 2011, 1:42 am
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Post Re: Wake up, Michiganders.
I havn't read the bill in full either, but I DO have a question. When Flint was "taken over" by the state a couple of years back, due to our own financial state of emergency, the takover only lasted untill the the books got balanced and the ship got righted. Does it say somewhere that the "takover" is permanent? or only durring the financial crysis?


March 15th, 2011, 8:47 am
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Post Re: Wake up, Michiganders.
I'd like to weigh in on this, but will state that I haven't seen any legislation, and have heard that the youtube video was a fear mongering tactic. Didn't watch it myself, so I couldn't say one way or the other.

My experience comes from taking over the reigns of a difficult situation in which about 60 people were concerned. Budget was shrinking due to decreased incomes, and lack of employment. In the middle of this, turmoil erupted greatly exacerbating the situation, leaving many posts unfilled or filled by inappropriate people. So here's what had to happen.

1. A leader needed to take firm control of the situation
2. Using best available resources, had to map out a vision for the future
3. Sell that vision to the people involved
4. Begin course corrections to get on the path to recovery
5. BALANCE the budget, NO SPENDING, trim fat every where.
6. Deal with "forest fires" as they erupted from disgruntled people, allow them their voice, listen to their concerns, act when possible, and weather the tirade when not.
7. Continue the course of action.

Turning a State, and a mindset around is like trying to turn the Titanic on a dime, it's not going to happen instantaneously. What you are seeing is a CORE VALUE change on a State wide level.

Corruption, Waste, and wonton Greed have been the way of things for several years and decades in this socitey, not just the State of Michigan. Unions have facilitated this, and pushed for it until they've become diseased by their own inability to consider the good of all. It's a Me First society all around.

Change hurts, and draws the most fire, but it has to happen. Like in Wisconsin, the fat cats have got to get off thier wallets and give up a normal portion of their enormous benefits. Start paying what the rest of the country is why don'tcha!

What's going on is so painfully obvious to me because I have the experience of being a few steps ahead in the process that's all. Is it hard, abosolutely, but is it worth it, absolutely!

In regards to the SOM, as long as there is supreme leadership that the Emergency Case manager has to report to, and that it's PUBLIC knowledge about what is being done, I don't see the problem. Corporations will not become the new CZARS of city states, they (if it's done right) be able to use their vast experience in money management and turn around to rectify a problem, and then be on their way.

One thing I question is why do we as Americans believe just because you have money and some popularity to run that you are best suited for a job in politics? Is there a training course that all must attend prior to pursuing this occupation?

That would be the real sign of trying to fix things. Establishing an academy that is focused on Money management, trade relations, budgeting, and so on to develop these money carrying, popular people after they've thrown their hat in the ring. I'd say, make it mandatory 12 to 18 mos. prior to any level race, and all those vying for the position must attend, then the populace gets to vote on the best of class from each party. Oh and all classes and scores would be public information as well. (Please keep in mind that this is a far fetched idea, but it would help us get the overall, TRAINED, individual for political office, instead of some lacky with a big wallet, and an agenda.

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March 15th, 2011, 11:18 am
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