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 Libya 
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Modmin Dude
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Post Libya
WTF!?!?! When is are the "civilized" countries (including us) going to do something (besides sitting on their hands)???

wsj wrote:
Gadhafi Forces Shell Rebel-Held City
MIDDLE EAST NEWS MARCH 16, 2011, 10:18 A.M. ET

By MARGARET COKER
Residents in Misrata, the country's third-largest city 200 kilometers (130 miles) east of Tripoli, say that Col. Moammar Gadhafi's armed forces are shelling the city outskirts with heavy weapons, possibly using tanks, in what is expected to be a fresh assault to regain control of the city, believed to be the only western Libyan city still in the hands of antigovernment forces.

Misrata's townspeople have rebuffed almost daily assaults by government troops over the last three weeks that it had been independent of Col. Gadhafi's control.

In this time, Misrata has provided the kind of successful self-rule experiment that many Libyans appear to crave, and if it can withstand renewed pressure by the armed forces it could become a vivid counterpoint to the kind of chaos that Col. Gadhafi has threatened will arise in the country should he be forcibly removed from power.

Misrata residents have a reputation among Libyans for being business-savvy and industrious, as well as being a very tight-knit community. These attributes, plus the emergence of strong city governing councils, are credited for keeping the city both free and united against Col. Gadhafi's assaults.

"We feel like we only have each other to count on," said Ahmad, a member of the city militia. "We have no contact from [the transitional national council in] Benghazi. We have taken matters into our own hands."

The city's lawyers' association has taken over many of the administrative functions for the bustling commercial city, which is home to Libya's busiest port, including the operation of the local electric-power stations and water services.

The council has leveraged the city's local radio station as a means to organize services and inform the town about the dangers facing them, according to residents.

"If the hospitals need a type of blood, then they announce it on the radio. If there's a fire somewhere, they also announce it. That way the fire trucks know where to go," said Iman, a housewife in Misrata.

Meanwhile, a medical committee has coordinated with outside aid groups and non-profit organizations and managed the complex logistical task of importing three tons of emergency medical supplies worth $500,000.

Most of the supplies have arrived from ships sailing from Malta, which has provided critical logistical support for the city, according to international aid organizer Mohammed al Misrati, who works with Libyan expatriates to funnel donations and emergency aid to the country of his birth. He says that Misrata officials are better organized and efficient than their counterparts in Benghazi.

"The medical committee gives us a priority list almost daily. They are organized and very professional," he said.

The city's military council, which is run by officers who defected from Gadhafi's army in the early days of the uprising, has organized neighborhood militias as well as civil defense forces that have kept the city's key installations safe from attack.

The town's militia repulsed an advancing column on tanks which invaded the city on March 6, fighting a four-hour battle that ended with the retreat of the government forces. The militia has also repelled multiple attacks by Col. Gadhafi's special forces against the city's radio antenna, according to two city fighters.

It is unclear how much coordination that the city's civil and military committees have—or even how well the different city officials get along. Journalists invited to Tripoli by the central government have been prevented from traveling to Misrata, and journalists based in the rebel-held eastern part of the country haven't been able to reach the city, due to the heavy fighting in that part of the country.

In one key case, the city authorities failed in their control of their residents' actions. After the tank battle on March 6, town fighters and other residents had captured approximately 20 government soldiers, according to two residents.

In the celebrations that erupted after the city's victory, the prisoners "disappeared," according to one resident, who said he believed that they had all been killed.

"The anger was uncontrollable. The people had thought they were going to die and I'm afraid that they took the anger out against the prisoners," the resident said in a telephone interview a day after the battle. The fate of the prisoners couldn't be independently verified.

Write to Margaret Coker at margaret.coker@wsj.com

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 84014.html

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March 16th, 2011, 10:47 am
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Post Re: Libya
Well, the world or regional level nation represented orginazations are worthless... so don't expect anything from them. The US gets lambasted and called out for getting involved in everything, good or bad, so Obama isn't going to touch it with a ten foot pole. Try to do good, you get tagged as bad, it's a lose lose situation. Do nothing, you get asked why not. We get involved, we get labelled as colonizers again. We can't win. And no one else cares enough to step in and do anything...

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March 16th, 2011, 10:52 am
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Post Re: Libya
steensn wrote:
Well, the world or regional level nation represented orginazations are worthless... so don't expect anything from them. The US gets lambasted and called out for getting involved in everything, good or bad, so Obama isn't going to touch it with a ten foot pole. Try to do good, you get tagged as bad, it's a lose lose situation. Do nothing, you get asked why not. We get involved, we get labelled as colonizers again. We can't win. And no one else cares enough to step in and do anything...

But aren't we, as humans and Americans, supposed to look out for the little guy?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we should go it alone, but if I'm not mistaken France and possible Germany have been trying to get a No-Fly Zone passed in the Security Council to NO Avail. Hell, even the Arab States Group (forget they're name - Arab League???) APPROVED a NFZ. WTF is everyone waiting for??? There are innocent, unarmed HUMANS getting killed daily by their dictator.

I guess we can 'thank' politics for this...

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March 16th, 2011, 11:00 am
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Post Re: Libya
It wasn't Germany, it was Britan along with France proposing a NFZ:

ctv.ca wrote:
Canada rejects G8 action on Libya no-fly zone

Updated: Wed Mar. 16 2011 07:04:43

The Canadian Press

OTTAWA — The UN Security Council is the proper place to decide on action against Libya, Canada said Tuesday as G8 countries refused to support a no-fly zone proposed by France and Britain.

"It's clear that there is a need to provide a response through the UN Security Council, a response that will be effective diplomatically, involving the Arab League and other partners," Foreign Affairs Minister Lawrence Cannon said as G8 foreign ministers wrapped a two-day meeting in Paris.

The carnage in Libya dominated the two days of discussion, but host France was unable to marshal support for the no-fly proposal. Along with Britain, France proposed the intervention to halt the advance of Moammar Gadhafi's forces, which are winning back territory with tanks, warships and artillery from badly-outgunned rebel forces.

The Arab League backed the rebel pleas and called Saturday for a no-fly zone to stop government jets and to create safe zones for civilians.

Canada entered the G8 meeting with all options open -- including further sanctions and possible support for the no-fly zone -- but left by agreeing to push the matter over to the UN's most powerful body.

"It's up to the Arab League and other partners and the international community as a whole to take action -- act as soon as possible so as to put an end to this violence that is currently taking place," Cannon said.

In their final communique, the G8 foreign ministers said Gadhafi must leave power, warning he will face "dire consequences" if he doesn't honour the basic rights of the Libyan people, including freedom of expression and representative government.

French Foreign Minister Alain Juppe said he hopes the Security Council will take action this week to help opposition forces.

"What allowed the Gadhafi regime to tip the balance between its opposition and itself was the use of air power. Had it not been able to bomb a number of military and civilian sites, well Gadhafi would not have regained the upper hand," said Juppe.

"We British and French envisaged proposing to our partners not a no-fly zone -- contrary to what some have said -- but the use of air power for targeted strikes on air strips or the Libyan regime's 20 aircraft. This proposal wasn't implemented."

Juppe said the Security Council could strengthen sanctions, establish a humanitarian aid zone, or impose a maritime embargo.

A draft resolution was expected to be circulated among the Security Council's five permanent and 10-temporary members as early as Tuesday.

Canada won't play a part in that next step because it failed to win a temporary two-year term on the Security Council last fall -- a first in the history of the country.

Canada's G8 ally Russia -- also a veto-wielding permanent Security Council member -- remained skeptical of the no-fly option.

Russia's Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said his country wanted more details from the Arab League about its proposals for Libya before approving any military intervention.

"Once we have all that information we will be looking at all of the options," Lavrov said.

Cannon headed to Egypt on Tuesday to meet with reformers and members of the country's new cabinet. Sources said he was expected to announce funding for democracy-building efforts.

With files from The Associated Press

http://edmonton.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local ... montonHome


This part ticks me off a bit as I don't understand why is it taking so long for anything to happen???
Quote:
A draft resolution was expected to be circulated among the Security Council's five permanent and 10-temporary members as early as Tuesday.


Tuesday??? WTF??? That's another week! Is this NOT the 21st Century where we can talk to and see peeps form our cell phones (skype)? Are you really going to tell me that this World's countries can't afford or don't have access to this "new" technology? At work we have secure video conferences all the time, why can't the UN Security Council??? Most here know my dislike of all things UN, but IMO this is WHY the UN exists, to help the little guy..to right the wrongs going on in the World. If the continue to refuse to take action, then its another nail in the coffin of this sham of an organization.

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March 16th, 2011, 11:18 am
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Post Re: Libya
TheRealWags wrote:
steensn wrote:
Well, the world or regional level nation represented orginazations are worthless... so don't expect anything from them. The US gets lambasted and called out for getting involved in everything, good or bad, so Obama isn't going to touch it with a ten foot pole. Try to do good, you get tagged as bad, it's a lose lose situation. Do nothing, you get asked why not. We get involved, we get labelled as colonizers again. We can't win. And no one else cares enough to step in and do anything...

But aren't we, as humans and Americans, supposed to look out for the little guy?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we should go it alone, but if I'm not mistaken France and possible Germany have been trying to get a No-Fly Zone passed in the Security Council to NO Avail. Hell, even the Arab States Group (forget they're name - Arab League???) APPROVED a NFZ. WTF is everyone waiting for??? There are innocent, unarmed HUMANS getting killed daily by their dictator.

I guess we can 'thank' politics for this...


I agree, we SHOULD get involved. But helping the little guy has got us in so much trouble because the world doesn't see the 'little guy' as right all the time. Meaning we create enemies with those who suppor the big guy in the situation. I think it is crap, but the liberals honestly are getting exactly what they wanted, "stay out of other peoples business" and "war is bad."

Sorry, but politics got us to this point, Obama can't turn his back on those who elected him. Going in would pretty much end all chances of winning again. Most of those who are calling him out for not doing anything aren't going to vote for him anyways.

It is crap... but we did it to ourselves. We always make so big a mess out of stuff without thinking we paralize ourselves from doing the right thing. heck, we even allow people to collect on those trying to do the right thing saving a person. You can't even give CPR without possibly being sued for breaking a rib savings someones life. We'd rather ruin our ability to do the right thing...

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March 16th, 2011, 11:42 am
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Post Re: Libya
We would not get "lambasted" for sticking up for Libya here. Even France is calling for someone (us!) to do something, and Obama is sitting on his brains... I'm sorry but the guy is a clueless pussy, and has no idea how the real world works. He is arguably the most elitist president that we've ever had, and his cluelessness reaches new heights. He literally disgusts me.


March 16th, 2011, 12:22 pm
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Post Re: Libya
Why doesn't France just do it? The point is that they are all talk, then when it is all said and done they turn their backs on us. Europe can handle this and they aren't, why, because in the end we are moving towards a state wher we can't do anything right.

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March 16th, 2011, 12:34 pm
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Post Re: Libya
steensn wrote:
Why doesn't France just do it? The point is that they are all talk, then when it is all said and done they turn their backs on us. Europe can handle this and they aren't, why, because in the end we are moving towards a state wher we can't do anything right.


France isn't equipped like we are to deal with this mess, and the subsequent fall out. Libya would attack France and nit-pick them to death. They are too close and don't have proper security measures. Like it or not, we are the most equipped country to deal with the mess that is going on over there, and we SHOULD do something to help those people.


March 16th, 2011, 12:54 pm
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Post Re: Libya
We should, I just think we have had so much stuff happened it has put a bad taste in the mouths of too many people.

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March 16th, 2011, 1:31 pm
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Post Re: Libya
"The only good thing about the French is that They are always there when They NEED US."

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March 17th, 2011, 9:36 am
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Post Re: Libya
The whole discussion/scenario of us potentially intervening in Libya reminds me of a saying I first heard when I was in elementary school:

"What is right is not always popular, and what is popular is not always right"

True leadership is doing what is right, whether it is popular or not. So, it shouldn't matter what some people/countries think about it. If it is the right thing to do, we should intervene to help out. That's what's truly lacking in our "leaders" at the moment. They don't actually lead. They try to do what they think is popular. We need real leaders who will do what is right, whether popular or not.

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March 17th, 2011, 10:59 am
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Post Re: Libya
We should not intervene. It is not our place. We are already stretched too thin. I am thankful no other countries intervened in our civil war.


March 17th, 2011, 11:10 am
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Post Re: Libya
Blueskies wrote:
We should not intervene. It is not our place. We are already stretched too thin. I am thankful no other countries intervened in our civil war.

At least one difference I see between Libya and our Civil War....both sides had guns in our War, this one? Not so much. BIG difference IMHO.

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March 17th, 2011, 11:20 am
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Post Re: Libya
I'm glad France got involved in our Revlutionary War... what happened to that France?

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March 17th, 2011, 11:49 am
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Post Re: Libya
Thats actually kind of a good analogy, steensn.

"That" France only intervened because we were fighting against their largest rival--the British. "That" France then disappeared from the Earth when their own people rose up and overthrew the government in the French revolution--primarily because the French people were suffering due to the French government's debt, in part fueled by foreign intervention.

History does tend to repeat itself...


March 17th, 2011, 12:26 pm
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