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 The war of Gog and Magog. 
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Post Re: The war of Gog and Magog.
In fact, I will even give you the title's of the books so that you can google them and see a rough break down on what they have to offer.

1: Wild at Heart: John Eldridge

2: Fathered by God: John Eldridge

I honestly believe you will be touched by both, but I put the challenge to you, and hope that you will allow me the opportunity to get them for you. It would be my pleasure.

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May 23rd, 2011, 3:11 pm
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Post Re: The war of Gog and Magog.
I am a pretty avid reader about 3-4 books behind right now but I tell you what, I'd be happy to put one of those in my que - which one would you recommend reading first?

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May 23rd, 2011, 3:56 pm
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Post Re: The war of Gog and Magog.
It depends upon you really.....

In "Wild at Heart" John goes on to explain many different characteristics of manhood through personal experiences, and more. He is a Christian Counselor, but I assure you this isn't a lay down on the couch and tell me your story kind of book. As I said, he uses many of his own experiences in life to explain, identify, and help others come to understand the "masculine heart."

In "Fathered by God" I think I can best explain it by giving you the opening paragraphs to help you see what it's like....

"One of the most haunting experiences I have ever had as a man took place on an early summer day in Alaska. My family and I were sea kayaking with humpback whales in the Icy Strait, and we stopped on the shore of Chichagof Island for lunch. Our guide asked us if we wanted to go for a hike into the interior of the island, to a clearing where grizzlies were known to feed. We were all over that invitation. After a twenty minute walk through a spruce forest, we came into what appeared to be a road, open meadow about four hundred yards across. Being midday, and hot, there were no bears to be seen....... Our guide led us to a trail of what seemed to be massive footprints, with a stride of about two feet between them, pressed down into the bog and making a path through it. "It's a marked trail," he said. A path created by the footprints of the bears. "This one is probably centuries old. For as long as the bears have been on this island, they've taken this path. The cubs follow their elders, putting their feet exactly where the older bears walk. that's how they learn to cross this place." John Eldredge Fathered by God.

As I said, it depends upon what you want, but in understanding God as a Father I personally went with the 2nd choice. In understanding why I act, think, and prefer the things I do as a man, that was the first one. But it's really up to you!

I really hope they bless you as much as they have me. He has several others that I've read, but these two seem to speak to this situation right now. "Waking the Dead" might be another good choice, but I wouldn't want you to be overloaded.

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May 23rd, 2011, 5:57 pm
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Post Re: The war of Gog and Magog.
Blueskies wrote:
It was written by a dude in jail,


So was some of the parts you are lukewarm about. You make no logical argument here, just muddying the waters. Address it for what it is... it predicted the rise of Isreal as a nation again. 2000 years later... a once dead and utterly distance country was reborn.

It's crazy, crazy right.

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May 23rd, 2011, 6:51 pm
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Post Re: The war of Gog and Magog.
Blueskies wrote:
I doubt Stovall was ever an atheist. If he was, he was because of ignorance, not an atheist because of rational thought. I've scanned some of his books.


That is lazy thinking... sorry.. but for you to just wave something away so utterly uninformed is just nonsense. I'd expect more from such an "informed" person...

You practice what you yourself imagined him being with zero evidence or support.

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May 23rd, 2011, 6:53 pm
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Post Re: The war of Gog and Magog.
Blueskies wrote:
Anyway, I have no interest in arguing this further. I've argued this topic since I was about 14 years old. I'm done.

People get their religious beliefs as children when they are too young to put up an intellectual defense. When they hit puberty and if they acquire the skill of critical thinking, they may convert to atheism. Then their religious beliefs do not change for the rest of their lives unless they go through a traumatic experience, in which case they may "find god" or lose their religion. Also, when they get really old and the idea of their mortality kicks in, they may become religious/become more religious.

Other than that, nothing can change a person's religious beliefs. So there is no point in arguing. There are much more interesting topics to discuss.



Another utterly lazy assumption disgused as self proclaimed "critical thinking." I'm always suprised to see people promoting such nonsense statements. I can summ it up:

"If people were smart like me they'd believe everything I believe..."

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May 23rd, 2011, 6:55 pm
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Post Re: The war of Gog and Magog.
Pablo wrote:
And lets not forget even Jesus had his doubts in his own father, such as when he said "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"


Where he is clearly quoting Psalms 22 which goes on to speak of the prophecy of how the Messiah would suffer and be treated... someone should try and learn a bit before mocking blindly.

Pablo wrote:
Oh and then their is the equally famous "Beware of false prophets" yet we are not allowed to question perhaps the biggest prophet of them all? Doesn't this force us to step back and question everything per the Bible's own teaching?
.


You are comparing something meant for believers... if you are seeking to believe, test it and see for yourself. You can't mock something you don't know enough about or the context to pass judgement.

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May 23rd, 2011, 7:02 pm
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Post Re: The war of Gog and Magog.
Steesn,

What is sad is that you are seeing a demonstration of Head knowledge verses heart knowledge. Head knowledge can not understand the things of the heart, but the heart can influence the head. Blueskies may be very smart, and he may have a lot of book knowledge and experiences that have formed "his" world view. But things of the Bible, deal with the heart, and therefore relationship, which is something the mind can not fathom...

Blueskies, you made a comment earlier about how the OT and NT have different flavors or something to that affect. You are correct sir, they do. The OT was known as the time of the law, where the Lord set a standard (10 Commandments), but man was not able to keep those commandments and so the NT came as a time of Grace. We are still living under the time of Grace right now, but we are quickly approaching the time of Judgment, which is going to be terrible.

I did want to ask you a question though:

What do you think it is that Christians get out of the Christian life, that makes them stick with it?

Are there any perks?

What is it is about Christianity that encourages men and women to endure the persecution (especially in foreign countries)?

I'm looking for the logic or absence there of, behind Christianity from your perspective.

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May 23rd, 2011, 7:12 pm
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Post Re: The war of Gog and Magog.
I agree with most you said about head vs heart... but I contend that to get to the point where they make the claims they do they must put forth their opinions as facts and logical when in fact they are not. They write off everything as non-science yet they base all thei disacontent around flat out lies.

They make accusations not based on facts but on absolute crock arguments which clearly show that they don't even know enough to make the comments they do.

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May 23rd, 2011, 7:22 pm
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Post Re: The war of Gog and Magog.
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So was some of the parts you are lukewarm about. You make no logical argument here, just muddying the waters. Address it for what it is... it predicted the rise of Isreal as a nation again. 2000 years later... a once dead and utterly distance country was reborn.


Yes, I made a blatant ad hominem attack. I'll admit it. Address it for what it is? Fine. Its a bunch of nonsensical rambling.

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but for you to just wave something away so utterly uninformed is just nonsense. I'd expect more from such an "informed" person


He's an ID proponent. That tells me hes intellectually ignorant. He's clearly claimed to be an atheist because it helps him sell his message. Good for him, but I'm not buying.

Code:
Another utterly lazy assumption disgused as self proclaimed "critical thinking." I'm always suprised to see people promoting such nonsense statements. I can summ it up:

"If people were smart like me they'd believe everything I believe..."


No, its not a lazy assumption. Its based on over 10 years of debating with religious people and observing religious debates. No one ever changes their mind. Show me documented proof please.

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Religious beliefs (or lack thereof) are not based on anything rational. They are emotionally based. You can not alter a person's emotional beliefs with rational arguments. Doesn't work that way.

What do you think it is that Christians get out of the Christian life, that makes them stick with it?

Are there any perks?

What is it is about Christianity that encourages men and women to endure the persecution (especially in foreign countries)?

I'm looking for the logic or absence there of, behind Christianity from your perspective.


I don't think being a Christian is that much different from being a devoted Jew or Muslim, therefore my answer applies to a person of any faith.

Religion helps to answer three human needs: the need for understanding, the need for structure, and the need for community.

Religion serves these needs quite well, and so it has always existed throughout civilization and will probably always exist as long as humans are around.

Though if western civilization actually begins to collapse, I would expect a new religion to take hold, as is tradition when civilizations are collapsing.


May 23rd, 2011, 7:35 pm
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Post Re: The war of Gog and Magog.
DevilDoc wrote:
Billy,

That is a very impressive amount of research, and effort to put together on behalf of someone who asked a question.

Don't worry about those who mock you, they will recall every word when they are standing on the wrong side of the line, and it will be to their shame. Don't let it trouble you, for that is what they are hoping for. Common sense would tell you that the U.S. economically is unable, and will be even more unable under this President and all of the damage he is doing. We will be unable to help Israel, in fact, you will see that no one will be able to assist Israel but God.

What is even more sad, is that in the book of Revelation, after the return of the Lord, and all of the verification of His 2nd coming that ALL will see, even then some will deny him. For all of those who request a sign, when they see it, they still will not be able to handle it.

Billy, I also want for you to know that it isn't up to you or me to win anyone for Christ. All we can do is live the truth, and do our best to maintain our own personal holiness. It is the Holy Spirit that will enlighten those who need salvation, and it is He that will convict them. We are just responsible for praying and doing our best to demonstrate the love of Christ, through being His hands and feet in this life.

Don't let ignorance and mocking upset you, just count yourself worthy, for Christ was mocked worse and persecuted more than we ever could be. As they did it to him, they'll do it to us - guaranteed!


Oh I wasn't worrying. I was just emphasizing for them to remember what I posted. Any mocking directed at me, I just count as a heavenly credit to me. As you may have seen, I am not afraid to be mocked, especially by people I only know ( with a few exceptions) because of reading their posts, for some of my football related posts. LOL. While it is true that we can't win anyone for Christ, it IS our duty to put the word out there and spread the gospel. That's why I started the "Your Bible Questions Answered" thread. And I am also ashamed to say that I still get way to emotionally charged up by football. Especially when the Lions don't do what I think they should do. LOL. I am working on that issue.


May 23rd, 2011, 8:16 pm
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Post Re: The war of Gog and Magog.
Blueskies wrote:
As an atheist, I have lukewarm respect for some of the new testament.

But certainly not the ridiculous book of Revelation.

It was written by a dude in jail, who was most likely hallucinating. Most serious scholars interpret it as a metaphorical expose on the fall of the Roman empire.

It is little different than Nostradamus' drivel.

If he meant Central Asia, why didn't he just say Central Asia? If he meant Russia, why not just say Russia?

If believing this helps you sleep at night, then keep believing it. Anything I write here certainly won't change that. But it has absolutely no more validity than the legends of Ragnarok or the Mayan doomsday or any other civilizations' end time prophecy.


He used the names that the people of the day knew them as. If he called Russia Russia, his contemporaries would not know where he was talking about. For all that matters, he himself most likely did not know our modern day names for these places.


May 23rd, 2011, 8:24 pm
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Post Re: The war of Gog and Magog.
Blueskies wrote:
I doubt Stovall was ever an atheist. If he was, he was because of ignorance, not an atheist because of rational thought. I've scanned some of his books.

Quote:
The entirety of the Bible was written over a long period of time by 40 DIFFERENT authors, and yet the message flows from Genesis to Revelation as it should.


Maybe the bible flows because it was originally 100 different books that were whittled down to a select few?

Maybe it doesn't flow at all. I certainly feel that the old testament is quite different in tone and scope from the new testament.

There certainly appears to be a lot of contradictions in the bible. I'm sure you can spin them and put them through a literally lens to the point where they don't appear to be contradictions but from an unbiased perspective there appears to be contradictions.


Well yeah :!: The Tone IS different. Jesus arrived in the form of and flesh of a man. And he proceeded to upset the apple cart by challenging the leaders of the day by exposing them as the hypocrites that they were. Jesus made it impossible for them to hide behind the synagog walls anymore. Jesus did not come to Earth to make the flow nice and smooth. He came to Earth to divide people and make them choose sides.


May 23rd, 2011, 8:30 pm
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Post Re: The war of Gog and Magog.
Pablo wrote:
DevilDoc wrote:
Don't let ignorance and mocking upset you, just count yourself worthy, for Christ was mocked worse and persecuted more than we ever could be. As they did it to him, they'll do it to us - guaranteed!


And lets not forget even Jesus had his doubts in his own father, such as when he said "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Oh and then their is the equally famous "Beware of false prophets" yet we are not allowed to question perhaps the biggest prophet of them all? Doesn't this force us to step back and question everything per the Bible's own teaching?

As for the original posting, I'm sure believers will be saying it will be happening soon 100, 200 and 500 years from now as they have throughout the past 2000+ years. That said, I'll keep an eye out Billy and if I do see the war of Gog and Magog occuring I'll get on my knees and pray for salvation, followed by a quick log onto the Lionbacker forum to say that you were right.


1st. I'll hold you to that on your last statement. LOL.

2nd.
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And lets not forget even Jesus had his doubts in his own father, such as when he said "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"


Jesus was not having doubts about his father. While Jesus hung on the cross, he was taking on all the sins of the world - past, present, and future. God the Father could not stand to look at his son while he was bearing all that sin. So, God the Father did in fact forsake Jesus at that moment and turned his back to him until Jesus cried out "It is finished" and then gave up the ghost. Up until that moment, Jesus had NEVER been without the presence of the father. It was a completely foreign concept to him.


May 23rd, 2011, 8:40 pm
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Post Re: The war of Gog and Magog.
Pablo wrote:
First, I don't think Jesus volunteered. Second, innocent of what charges? Did he not expel the money changers from the Temple? Did he not claim that he was "the son of God" and "King of the Jews" (and to this day the Jews still fail to recognize him as their King)? Did he not fail to answer Herod's questions?

Third, if I already knew what I was getting into as the son of God I wouldn't question my father, no matter how grueling (and wasn't he a healer by nature anyway?) You would think someone so "enlightened" would be able to heal himself or block out the pain.

BTW - as a father of two boys, I would do anything in my power to stop the pain of either one - your "God" must be a real terrible father indeed.


I am eternally thankful that Jesus did not "heal himself" and fail to save anyone from their sins. The only way anyone could be saved from their sin was by the death and shed blood of GOD's very own son. The spotless lamb.

What makes Christianity different from any other religion of this world? In no other religion, did the Deity die to save his/her people from their sins.

edited to add:

And yes, Jesus most certainly did volunteer for the job. He did it to prove his love to an unbelieving world.


May 23rd, 2011, 8:48 pm
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