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 The war of Gog and Magog. 
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Post Re: The war of Gog and Magog.
Blueskies wrote:
Religion helps to answer three human needs: the need for understanding, the need for structure, and the need for community.


And that is truly sad. It is also why religion doesn't meet the biggest need for humans. THE FORGIVENESS OF SIN.

And that's what set's Christianity apart from religion.


May 23rd, 2011, 9:10 pm
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Post Re: The war of Gog and Magog.
Okay, this is starting to get a little humorous because although you may have years of experience in debating Christians, and maybe even some religious study, you haven't truly gained enough insight into what you are declaring as a falsehood. I'm not being judgmental I am trying to help you see something:

1. Have you ever seen a shepherd? Does a shepherd drive his sheep? Sheep are the most "dumb" animals known to exist! They will lay down and eat themselves to death, forgetting to stand back up. You can lay a sheep on it's back, and it will not get up, because it doesn't know how.

Basically what I'm trying to say, is that there is NO structure in a flock. Now I understand that you have hierarchy's in RELIGION, priests on down, but that's RELIGION. RELIGION and RELATIONSHIP are two different things. RELIGION is about control, actions, head knowledge. RELATIONSHIP is about relationships, or heart knowledge. The two are oil and water. I can see where Community would come in, because Relationships deal with community.

Understanding: That is a more along the lines of SELF-fulfillment. I need you to hear me and understand me. Me is the common denominator. It is the HUMAN CONDITION. Take a young child and see what is one of the first words out of their mouths: MINE! We as humans are born with an inate desire for self preservation, even down to the cellular level. So by nature we are selfish. In looking at our society you can see selfishness run amuck. Road Rage, Pornography, Greed, all can be traced back to that human desire for self. I want what I want, when I want it. Road Rage, we get angry to the point of murder because someone cut us off, and now we are .1 tenth of a second late for work.

Porn: we use women to stimulate our senses in order to provide physical gratification. She no longer becomes a willing counterpart to a beautiful relational past time between humans, she is giving the best of herself in order that those who purchase it, view it, or whatever, can use it at little relational cost to themselves. They are settling for cheap counterpart, because quite frankly they don't care enough about her to worry about what it does to the woman. In a sense, she is no longer a participant, but a receptical for your lustful biproduct.

Greed: that desire for more, more, more. This insatiable hunger leaves nothing but destruction in it's path, because all that matters is more. Insert your own target here, money, power, time, people.... whatever it is greed is self focused.


So out of all of this, and based upon your statements alone Blue, I can see that you have head knowledge, and perceptions about what Christianity is, but it doesn't appear that you have heart knowledge.

My friend: if you truly want to experience God, I will not ask you to quit smoking, screwing around, or whatever it is you do in your life. Afterall you must first catch the fish before you clean it. I've heard for a number of years that in order to be a Christian you have to do this, this, and that. I don't want to shackle you with traditions, rituals, or rules that will only encumber you and prove your point about, "See I told you so." My hearts desire is to introduce you, and anyone else who is interested to a man/God who does love you and will meet you where you are at, if only you would come the first step, acknowledge by faith. I assure you that I won't get a gold watch for each "soul" I save, and I don't get to sit in a better pew because I'm the most productive salesman. The church is definitely not going to give me a kick back sales incentive for each person I bring in. But what I will get is the joy of knowing that someone else has come to know the Lord, and will spend eternity in heaven, safe, secure, and we'll have a relationshp based upon that, not on what you can do for me, or I for you. I'm not a salesman, just a man who's lived some awful experiences, that could probably teach you a few things, and would definitely learn some things in return, but you have to take the first step......

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May 24th, 2011, 8:47 am
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Post Re: The war of Gog and Magog.
DD, I'm having a hard time getting your point. What exactly do you mean?

In terms of religion fulfilling man's needs I mean like this:

Need: Man is a political animal. Needs to belong to a group--family, nation, club, etc.
Answer: Religion creates a community. People are bonded through common belief system, also churches provide communities that people can belong to.

Need: Man needs a code of ethics to help guide day-to-day behavior.
Answer: Religion provides a code of ethics to govern individual behavior and presents a code which actually helps people thrive in society for the most part.

Need: Man needs understanding about his purpose in life.
Answer: Religion (obviously) provides an answer for the meaning of life for everyone.

Christianity is not special in this way. Paganism accomplished the same things. Islam accomplishes the same things today. etc.

I know you are mentally incapable of viewing Christianity in an objective way, but I don't see anything special about it. You're a Christian because a Roman emperor decided 1700 years ago he was going to declare Christianity his state religion and the descendants of the Roman empire just so happened to conqueror most of the world.

But if Constantine had picked Zorastrianism instead, I am 100% confident you would be a Zorastrian.

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if you truly want to experience God, I will not ask you to quit smoking, screwing around, or whatever it is you do in your life.


Why do you assume I do these things?

I don't, and for most of my life, never have.

I live, what would be called, a "Christian" life for the most part. But I don't follow such a code of ethics because I believe it will get me into heaven or that I believe Jesus is God or anything because I certainly don't. I follow a code of ethics similar to Christianity because its an effective path for having a successful life (for the most part).

Quote:
I'm not a salesman, just a man who's lived some awful experiences, that could probably teach you a few things, and would definitely learn some things in return, but you have to take the first step......


Here's my question: you're born-again, right? So was there a point in your life when you were a major sinner? Did you have a conversion to your present faith, or were you raised this way since childhood?

I don't want to insult you, but I generally don't trust the ultra-religious people I meet in real life.

The reason being is that I've learned through experience that most of them--especially the ones who had mid-life conversions--didn't just believe in their religion, they needed it. They had the most messed up lives or harbored terrible impulses and their mind literally needed the belief system so as not to destroy themselves.


May 24th, 2011, 6:53 pm
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Post Re: The war of Gog and Magog.
Blueskies wrote:
DD, I'm having a hard time getting your point. What exactly do you mean?

In terms of religion fulfilling man's needs I mean like this:

Need: Man is a political animal. Needs to belong to a group--family, nation, club, etc.
Answer: Religion creates a community. People are bonded through common belief system, also churches provide communities that people can belong to.

Need: Man needs a code of ethics to help guide day-to-day behavior.
Answer: Religion provides a code of ethics to govern individual behavior and presents a code which actually helps people thrive in society for the most part.

Need: Man needs understanding about his purpose in life.
Answer: Religion (obviously) provides an answer for the meaning of life for everyone.

Christianity is not special in this way. Paganism accomplished the same things. Islam accomplishes the same things today. etc.

I know you are mentally incapable of viewing Christianity in an objective way, but I don't see anything special about it. You're a Christian because a Roman emperor decided 1700 years ago he was going to declare Christianity his state religion and the descendants of the Roman empire just so happened to conqueror most of the world.

But if Constantine had picked Zorastrianism instead, I am 100% confident you would be a Zorastrian.

Quote:
if you truly want to experience God, I will not ask you to quit smoking, screwing around, or whatever it is you do in your life.


Why do you assume I do these things?

I don't, and for most of my life, never have.

I live, what would be called, a "Christian" life for the most part. But I don't follow such a code of ethics because I believe it will get me into heaven or that I believe Jesus is God or anything because I certainly don't. I follow a code of ethics similar to Christianity because its an effective path for having a successful life (for the most part).

Quote:
I'm not a salesman, just a man who's lived some awful experiences, that could probably teach you a few things, and would definitely learn some things in return, but you have to take the first step......


Here's my question: you're born-again, right? So was there a point in your life when you were a major sinner? Did you have a conversion to your present faith, or were you raised this way since childhood?

I don't want to insult you, but I generally don't trust the ultra-religious people I meet in real life.

The reason being is that I've learned through experience that most of them--especially the ones who had mid-life conversions--didn't just believe in their religion, they needed it. They had the most messed up lives or harbored terrible impulses and their mind literally needed the belief system so as not to destroy themselves.


Quote:

I know you are mentally incapable of viewing Christianity in an objective way, but I don't see anything special about it. You're a Christian because a Roman emperor decided 1700 years ago he was going to declare Christianity his state religion and the descendants of the Roman empire just so happened to conqueror most of the world.

But if Constantine had picked Zorastrianism instead, I am 100% confident you would be a Zorastrian.


That's the most absurd thing I have ever read. Yeah, I'm a Christian because someone I have never met, that died long before I lived said I was going to be a Christian. Hey, pass the crack pipe. I need some of that. LOL.

Me being a Christian apparently has nothing to do with my beliefs whatsoever.


May 24th, 2011, 9:53 pm
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Post Re: The war of Gog and Magog.
Ok, let me see if I can tackle this all in as few words as possible....

Blue, you said that man is an animal that needs community. That is correct, and we do agree, although from different perspectives. Man as an animal needs community because man is RELATIONAL by design.

Man, by nature doesn't NEED a code of ethics, or rules by which to live by. In a community setting, it is the common rule of law that establishes guidelines to facilitate relational living. But, it is possible for man to live without that, but in a community setting that becomes survival of the strongest.

Man does need a purpose, or a reason for being, but it's not RELIGION that provides it. RELIGION is a man made design of divine worship. In a RELATIONSHIP with God, man understands his purpose and that is to love, serve, and interact with God. God is supreme, and man was designed for relationship out of relationship. Genesis 1:26 - 27.

Relational Christianity, is different from the other world religions because:

1. buddhism: you follow the path to enlightenment
2. Islam: You must do or allah will be mad
and so on......

the World religions say do, Jesus says decide.

I grew up in a Christian home but DID NOT attend church on Sunday. I knew about the Lord, but did not make a personal decision about the Lord until my 20's. Ancient Christians did nothing but perpetuate the faith by bringing it into the world. By using your perspective, do you perpetuate your lifestyle upon your children? You have no religious views or perspective, okay fine, but do you choose to enlighten your children with all of the world religions, and then say okay you decide what you're going to do? No, through the close proximity of family, they see and learn from your example, and then generally choose to follow based upon their experiences during that time. So the brainwashing argument isn't entirely truthful, it just happens to be a perspective that's used in order to attack or discredit Christians who choose to teach their children through personal experiences with Jesus.

I didn't mean to insinuate that you were doing those specific things, but was using those as examples of "non-Christian" behaviors. (see the "or whatever it is you do in your life")

Careful now, because now you are asking me to share my testimony! I will share it openly, and willingly but I want to clarify that you actually wish to hear it. Yes I have some very dirty laundry, in spite of growing up in a Christian household. In fact, here is the cliff notes version: I grew up in Mr. and Mrs. America suburbs working, brown collar home. It was a Christian home where my parents had a strong faith in the Lord, but we did not attend Church. When I was 18 I joined the Navy, and lived EVERY Navy tradition, in fact I believe I created a few.

The night before I came home for leave in 93, I was DJ music at the local bar in Gitmo, Cuba. I'm watching these Marines figure out what girls they were going to be with, and these girls figuring out what Mariens they were going to be with, and just as plain as if YOU had whispered it in my ear. A voice said in my right ear, "You know if you weren't DJ'ing you'd be right there with them." I immediately stood up, looked over my shoulder and was trying to find out who said that. I immediately got sick to my stomach because it was true. When I got home, I made a choice to change my life, and it's been an incredible journey since. If you want to know details I can do that, but this was the quicker version.

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May 24th, 2011, 10:32 pm
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Post Re: The war of Gog and Magog.
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That's the most absurd thing I have ever read. Yeah, I'm a Christian because someone I have never met, that died long before I lived said I was going to be a Christian. Hey, pass the crack pipe. I need some of that. LOL.

Me being a Christian apparently has nothing to do with my beliefs whatsoever.


Yeah, they came out with this really fancy crack. Its called "statistics".

If you tell me there's a religious person X in country Y and belonging to culture Z, I can tell you with 99% accuracy what religion the person is.

If you tell me the person is a black in the US, its a protestant. If the person is an Arab in Saudi Arabia, its a Muslim. If the person is a Latino in Mexico, its a catholic, etc.

That isn't just a coincidence.

You're Christian because your parents were Christians and their parents were Christian and their parents were Christian on and on all the way back to Constantine.

Unless you/your ancestors converted, in which case they converted to the dominant religion in their culture. Much easier to convert to a religion that the majority of the people around you practice.

So yes, if Constantine had decided to declare Zoroastrianism the religion of the Roman Empire, there's a 99% chance you would be praying to Zoroaster--not Jesus.


May 24th, 2011, 10:41 pm
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Post Re: The war of Gog and Magog.
Blueskies wrote:
Quote:
That's the most absurd thing I have ever read. Yeah, I'm a Christian because someone I have never met, that died long before I lived said I was going to be a Christian. Hey, pass the crack pipe. I need some of that. LOL.

Me being a Christian apparently has nothing to do with my beliefs whatsoever.


Yeah, they came out with this really fancy crack. Its called "statistics".

If you tell me there's a religious person X in country Y and belonging to culture Z, I can tell you with 99% accuracy what religion the person is.

If you tell me the person is a black in the US, its a protestant. If the person is an Arab in Saudi Arabia, its a Muslim. If the person is a Latino in Mexico, its a catholic, etc.

That isn't just a coincidence.

You're Christian because your parents were Christians and their parents were Christian and their parents were Christian on and on all the way back to Constantine.

Unless you/your ancestors converted, in which case they converted to the dominant religion in their culture. Much easier to convert to a religion that the majority of the people around you practice.

So yes, if Constantine had decided to declare Zoroastrianism the religion of the Roman Empire, there's a 99% chance you would be praying to Zoroaster--not Jesus.


What if I were to tell you that you are all wet about the bolded part? My parents are the furthest thing from Christians they could possibly be. My dad used to beat the crap out of me and my sisters. And my mom did nothing so that she wouldn't get beaten. I was 9 when the state removed me and my sisters from my parents custody. And while many of my foster parents were church goers, ( Notice that I did not say Christian), I did not give my life to GOD until a couple of years ago. But, from time to time I would pick up a Bible and study it just out of my own curiosity. I got my Christian education from 11-14 years old when I was placed in an all boys institution because I kept running away from foster homes that used their foster kids as free slave labor. It there that I seen a real difference between real Christians and fake Christians and non-Christians.

Other than all that, YEAH, YOU PRETTY MUCH NAILED IT. NOT :!: SO MUCH FOR YOUR CRAP STATISTICS.


May 24th, 2011, 11:05 pm
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Post Re: The war of Gog and Magog.
Did you not read the next sentence? If this was Saudi Arabia I'm sure you would've converted to Islam.


May 24th, 2011, 11:10 pm
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Post Re: The war of Gog and Magog.
Blueskies wrote:
Did you not read the next sentence? If this was Saudi Arabia I'm sure you would've converted to Islam.


If only you would stick to reality. This isn't Saudi Arabia. And you don't know that for sure. Your probably right about that. But, that's only because they force you to practice Islam. And there are thousands who have thrown away Islam and converted to Christianity. I seriously doubt that very many Christians have converted to Islam. If there is, then they weren't Christians to begin with.

But, anyway, this discussion is off topic and going nowhere. I am simply pointing out that it is not wise to profile people. That's what you are doing. And some day it's going to bite you in the dairy air.


May 24th, 2011, 11:27 pm
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Post Re: The war of Gog and Magog.
I could be wrong, but it is really interesting to me how answers to questions and then questions in return get "sidestepped."


It isn't the first time that this has happened and I'm sure it won't be the last, but I do find it interesting that when people either can't stand against, or don't wish to stand against the truth, the answers get sidestepped.

Just an observation is all......

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May 25th, 2011, 3:23 pm
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Post Re: The war of Gog and Magog.
BillySims wrote:
Blueskies wrote:
Did you not read the next sentence? If this was Saudi Arabia I'm sure you would've converted to Islam.


If only you would stick to reality. This isn't Saudi Arabia. And you don't know that for sure. Your probably right about that. But, that's only because they force you to practice Islam. And there are thousands who have thrown away Islam and converted to Christianity. I seriously doubt that very many Christians have converted to Islam. If there is, then they weren't Christians to begin with.

But, anyway, this discussion is off topic and going nowhere. I am simply pointing out that it is not wise to profile people. That's what you are doing. And some day it's going to bite you in the dairy air.


Not arguing, but pointing out some facts.

Actually, I'm pretty sure that many more Christians have converted to Islam than the other way around and Islam is the fastest growing religion on Earth (at least according to previous CIA reports and independent studies by the Pew Research Center).

As for forcing people to practice a certain faith, that can be said of most of the major beliefs. Do you really think the indigenous people of most Latin American countries initially believed in Jesus (who they have never heard of)? No, in reality their conqueror forced them to believe or perish. You can also trace many Europeon believers roots to the Crusades thanks to the Roman Catholic Church.

That is, indeed, sticking to reality!

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May 25th, 2011, 3:41 pm
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Post Re: The war of Gog and Magog.
Pablo: I do believe you are correct about many more Christians leaving the faith. This again speaks to my point about RELATIONSHIP.

Modern Christianity or the church in America, has done much to alienate or disenfranchise people. As someone who is a volunteer leader in an active church, I can say from experience that we (Christians) have perpetuated a "we four and no more" attitude. That inward focus naturally draws a dividing line between Christians and people who aren't.

Church has become in some areas, a list of rules, rituals, do's and don'ts. This doesn't meet people's needs, or endear them to a creator God. But, if a church is serving, loving, and demonstrating the love of Christ by meeting peoples needs, and helping them through situations, then you have a different kind of Christianity.

For example: The Catholic church has been very good about demanding it's members attend regular masses. A local CC down here has even told it's parishoners that it is a mortal sin for them to miss mass. Really? God is going to strike you dead, or send you to hell, because you've missed mass? The CC is also a big proponent for charging its members for services rendered. Special masses: $, Prayer Vigils: $, and so on, and don't even get me started on the lie of purgatory. People have become burned and discouraged by this type of church experience, and have contributed to the falling away. Christian churches are just as damaging in some of their practices, rules and regulations.

As I said above, it is my hearts desire to represent my faith by demonstrating the Love of Christ that resides in my heart. I'm not always very good at it, but I have to rely on God's grace, and the fact that I try to get back up and do it all over again. I hope you and many others will be able to hear my heart from these posts that I've written in recent days. In my opinion, if you want to see a church that is thriving and vibrant, then it needs to be a church that is obedient to the words of Jesus. Go and make disciples of all men! How do you do that? I believe you identify the need of your neighbor, and you meet it!

Here's a good example that you can see by using your own hand as a demonstration. Raising your hand in front of your face, wiggle your fingers in front of you. Each finger represents a need that you have. Now imagine a loving God trying to tell you He loves you, and wishes to have a relationship with you. Can you hear Him through the screaming needs or addictions that are waving in your face? Now if a Christian or Christians start meeting some of those needs, then put a finger down. Now all of a sudden where there were five, maybe there is three or four fingers left. It is in that void that a person can hear, and see the demonstration of Christ's love through His people.

Until we the body of Christ in America, unite under the banner of His love and grace, and start practicing what we've been led to do, we will continue to see people leave the faith, because they are not interested in rules and regulations anymore....

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May 25th, 2011, 5:38 pm
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Post Re: The war of Gog and Magog.
I understand what your saying DD. But, I still contend that any Christian that converts to any other religion was not a Christian to begin with. You can not have a relationship with Jesus and then turn your back on him. He won't let you. Once saved, always saved. You can be disobedient. But, GOD will reel you back in. But, anyone who has experienced a personal relationship with Jesus could not and would not leave him for a false religion.


May 25th, 2011, 10:40 pm
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Post Re: The war of Gog and Magog.
Wow! I've been trying to avoid this thread, but I was bored tonight so I decided to read it. My first thought was, "Is this anything like Godzilla vs. MechaGodzilla? If so, this could be pretty awesome". Unfortunately, the only similarity between the two is that they are works of fiction created by man for entertainment or subjugation purposes. :(

With that said, I was born and raised Catholic, as were my parents, and their parents before them. I think I was the first in the family to say, "What?" and question what we were being told. I got kicked out of Sunday School for questioning a nun about dinosaurs on Noah's Ark, and have questioned everything ever since. Unsurprisingly, nobody has been able to provide any adequate answers.

What I'm trying to say here is that there is no set reason why someone chooses to believe, not believe, or has a change in beliefs. Just because their family has had a certain belief for generations is not a good answer. I'm proof of that, but I may be an exception to the rule.

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May 26th, 2011, 12:07 am
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Post Re: The war of Gog and Magog.
slybri19 wrote:
Wow! I've been trying to avoid this thread, but I was bored tonight so I decided to read it. My first thought was, "Is this anything like Godzilla vs. MechaGodzilla? If so, this could be pretty awesome". Unfortunately, the only similarity between the two is that they are works of fiction created by man for entertainment or subjugation purposes. :(

With that said, I was born and raised Catholic, as were my parents, and their parents before them. I think I was the first in the family to say, "What?" and question what we were being told. I got kicked out of Sunday School for questioning a nun about dinosaurs on Noah's Ark, and have questioned everything ever since. Unsurprisingly, nobody has been able to provide any adequate answers.

What I'm trying to say here is that there is no set reason why someone chooses to believe, not believe, or has a change in beliefs. Just because their family has had a certain belief for generations is not a good answer. I'm proof of that, but I may be an exception to the rule.


I was raised Church of Christ, but no longer consider myself a follower. Much like you Sly.. I questioned stuff as well.

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May 26th, 2011, 8:16 am
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