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 Astronomy/Scientific Question 
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RIP Killer
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
regularjoe12 wrote:
and steens Just for the record, we're (well smart scientist types) are pretty darn sure that they have discovered mold and other such primative lifeforms on other planets....so we KNOW alien life exists. you want to change your wording to "Sentient Life" cuz we're beyond just guessing at just "life" itself.


They have, really? You might not have seen the backpeddling they did on the many of premature claims. I'm fine with it if they are there... I just have bad science.

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June 16th, 2011, 4:24 pm
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
TheRealWags wrote:
m2karateman wrote:
Look at human history. Various cultures, completely shut out from each other, had belief in a Supreme Being or Beings. Explain how this can be? Explain how or why different pockets of humans, never having interacted with each other, would have such similar beliefs? Could that not extend beyond our planet? Whether He truly exists or not is not at the heart of this matter. It would be why is there a belief in such a being or beings?

I would guess lack of knowledge. They needed something/some way to explain what was happening so they invented (a) "Supreme Being(s)" After they obtained said knowledge to answer the questions of the day, they still had to invent other "SBs" for things they couldn't explain.

Example:
Early human trying to figure out what the wet stuff falling from the sky is....(insert deity here) is mad/sad/etc must do something to make it all better. They then learn what "rain" is and eliminate the "Rain deity"

Seems rather logical and 'human'. In due time, once we as the human race have gained enough knowledge, we will have no use for deities or will create new ones.
JMHO


This.

steensn wrote:
Pablo wrote:
Secondly, Alien life is much more plausible than God in my opinion (feel free to disagree) and has a much better chance of someday being proven.


There is nothing that shows alien life is more plausible. In fact, our mere existence is very unplausible actually based on statistics. I will conced that is both exist, alien life would be easier to prove though because it is seemingly in the means our our technology today to do so.


Life is very plausible based on statistics, that is the point. Lets just say we are one in a billion shot, with 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars out there the odds of many forms of life out there are great indeed.

The odds of the human race, and each one of you as individuals (think of everything that had to line up just right from your parents "creating" you at the exact right moment, with that particular sperm, going back through grandparents, and so on) is very unlikely. As such, instead of being created specifically by God - think of how blessed you are from a statistical standpoint of ever being created. IMO, this random set of circumstances cultivating in YOU is much more miraculous than being created by any God. As such, we should live our lives grateful for this incredible lottery we have each won. We should also treat each other miracle lottery winner in a way worthy of how special we are. If there is "life in heaven" after all this, bonus (along with a Lions SB victory of course). If not, enjoy the astronomical odds you beat to be here in the first place because shouldn't that be good enough in the first place. If not, your really missing the whole point - how sad.

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June 16th, 2011, 4:29 pm
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
Here is the problem:

"Assume that the ribozyme is 300 nucleotides long, and that at each position there could be any of four nucleotides present. The chances of that ribozyme assembling are then 4^300"

That is just one protein.

What is the estimate of stars? 3 * 10^23

There isn't evne enough stars to to account for the chance of just one protein existing by chance. Even if we did come by chance, the chances of those others stars having a planet that can support life doesn't compare to the statistical odds of that protein existing by chance.

I'm not eliminating the possibility, I'm very open to it. But statistically the chances are low, even with the vastness of space. This whole idea that spacae is so huge the statistics are good is great, until you think about the chances of what we see here actually happening. Life at best will be minimal and scarce...

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June 16th, 2011, 5:19 pm
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
steensn wrote:
Here is the problem:

"Assume that the ribozyme is 300 nucleotides long, and that at each position there could be any of four nucleotides present. The chances of that ribozyme assembling are then 4^300"

That is just one protein.

What is the estimate of stars? 3 * 10^23

There isn't evne enough stars to to account for the chance of just one protein existing by chance. Even if we did come by chance, the chances of those others stars having a planet that can support life doesn't compare to the statistical odds of that protein existing by chance.

I'm not eliminating the possibility, I'm very open to it. But statistically the chances are low, even with the vastness of space. This whole idea that spacae is so huge the statistics are good is great, until you think about the chances of what we see here actually happening. Life at best will be minimal and scarce...


True if that is the only way life can form, but I doubt that is the case. You are using conditions that existed here assuming life can't generate under different condidtions. That would be both arrogant (as a species) and ignorant (as an individual). I doubt even a creator would limit himself in that manner.

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June 16th, 2011, 6:05 pm
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
I'm not stating that at all... but as well, it would be ignorant to state that every star has a planet capable of supporting life yet I gave that the benefit of the doubt. Just as anyone can see the random connection of atoms to form a protein isn't likely to be the full complecity of the situation, anyone being honest about the size of the universe will not attempt to overstate just how many places like could exist.

The point I'm making is when you look at the order of magnitude of both pieces we see the likelyhood as incredibly small. The Fermi Paradox is alive and well here...

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June 16th, 2011, 6:35 pm
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
aughsum wrote:
steensn wrote:
You are now taking imaginary beings and assuming they don't have similar beliefs? bduh.gif


I'm not assuming anything about their beliefs - you think alien life is imaginary? At this point it is but you don't think anything is out there? That's what I was getting at with the question - a lot of Christians I've met are completely against the possibility of alien life, despite the fact it defies logic. I've even met some who don't believe dinosaurs existed and think earth is 5000 years old.

That is the first time I've heard angels referred to as aliens, but I guess that would be accurate, if they existed.


Actually, from a universal perspective, WE ARE THE ALIENS :!:

Everything else was created before we were. And I should probably clarify something RegularJoe said earlier. We are the favorites in the sense that the Jews are GOD's chosen people. And we are only that because we are a fallen people since Adam ate the apple so to speak. GOD has chosen us as a major reclamation project.


June 17th, 2011, 9:35 am
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
steensn wrote:
I'm not stating that at all... but as well, it would be ignorant to state that every star has a planet capable of supporting life yet I gave that the benefit of the doubt. Just as anyone can see the random connection of atoms to form a protein isn't likely to be the full complecity of the situation, anyone being honest about the size of the universe will not attempt to overstate just how many places like could exist.

The point I'm making is when you look at the order of magnitude of both pieces we see the likelyhood as incredibly small. The Fermi Paradox is alive and well here...


I didn't say every star has a planet capable of supporting life. I am, however, pointing out that there could well be life much different than ours that thrives under different conditions. You always talk about limiting possibilities, yet here you are doing exactly the opposite of what you preach. The possibility of other types of life forms, say non carbon based, greatly increases the liklihood of life forms. And even if it is just life forms very much like ours, our very existence proves just how possible it is.

The Fermi Paradox only exist because you put a false limitation on the possibilities to start with by assuming that other life forms must follow our construct. The truth could be there are many solar systems, like our own, with multiple planets supporting very different forms of life for all we know.

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June 17th, 2011, 9:42 am
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
aughsum wrote:
We assume that someone else would travel first because we are so far off from a technical standpoint that if it is going to happen at any point in the near future it isn't going to be us. Look, our space shuttle program is no longer going to be getting off the ground. Humans haven't even visited the nearest planet, getting beyond our solar system isn't a remote possibility.


Until we create some kind of warp drive, anything beyond our solar system would be a one-way trip - I read that the lhc created/contained antimatter for 17minutes.. It's a start.[/quote]

Conspiracy theorist's would argue that we have already developed that technology and are currently exploring outer space as a black ops operation. It is all being covered up for the same reasons as UFO's. LOL. Their reasoning? How else do you explain the government paying $500 for 1 toilet seat? LOL.


June 17th, 2011, 9:44 am
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
Pablo wrote:
I didn't say every star has a planet capable of supporting life. I am, however, pointing out that there could well be life much different than ours that thrives under different conditions. You always talk about limiting possibilities, yet here you are doing exactly the opposite of what you preach. The possibility of other types of life forms, say non carbon based, greatly increases the liklihood of life forms. And even if it is just life forms very much like ours, our very existence proves just how possible it is.


I never limited it to carbon based life forms... but I also never noted other options either so maybe we'll chalk it up to miscommunication. Fact of the matter is, you still need something other than a burning ball of gas. The point I was making was that when I throw the numbers out for pieces of living creatures the chances are astounding and low. When you note all the stars in the universe, it doesn't account for how many planets (or planet thingies) it may have to support life which give better context of the chances just like noting proteins wouldn't randomly fit together till they hit the right combo (increasing the statistical chances).

Pablo wrote:
The Fermi Paradox only exist because you put a false limitation on the possibilities to start with by assuming that other life forms must follow our construct. The truth could be there are many solar systems, like our own, with multiple planets supporting very different forms of life for all we know.


Fermi Paradox doesn't assume carbon based life forms. It says if there is so much chance for other life, why have we yet to find one piece of evidence of it. In any form, carbon, silicon, etc. Pick one of the many option... we still haven't found one dang thing.

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June 17th, 2011, 9:47 am
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
m2karateman wrote:
Pablo wrote:
Secondly, Alien life is much more plausible than God in my opinion (feel free to disagree) and has a much better chance of someday being proven.


It has a better chance of being proven because it is assumed they exist within our current dimension of reality. And I would imagine it would be THEIR technology that brings them to us, not the other way around.

Pablo wrote:
And yes, it was my belief that communication with Aliens would help dispell the religious myths we still cling to here on the 3rd rock. If you want to call my beliefs hypocritical nonsense feel free, but please the examine your own beliefs from the same vantage point.


Another assumption Pablo. You are assuming the aliens would not believe in a Supreme Being. Why?

Look at human history. Various cultures, completely shut out from each other, had belief in a Supreme Being or Beings. Explain how this can be? Explain how or why different pockets of humans, never having interacted with each other, would have such similar beliefs? Could that not extend beyond our planet? Whether He truly exists or not is not at the heart of this matter. It would be why is there a belief in such a being or beings?


M2K,

Cultures who were shut out from each other were able to believe in a supreme creator because of creation itself. Look around you. Both on Earth and in space. Look at the structure and organization. Look at the the facts of how narrow the parameters are for things to fall into place in order for life to exist on Earth. 1 degree closer to the sun, we would burn to death. 1 degree further from the sun, we would freeze to death. The complete order and structure of the universe just screams about the existence of a supreme being.


June 17th, 2011, 9:55 am
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
I.E. wrote:
Just asking a question or two, from anyone who desires to answer:

Assuming: There is at least ONE other planet out there with intelligent life forms, and it is believed they would have been created by the one God of the Universe (the God of Abraham?) ...

... did an alien Eve eat a forbidden alien fruit in parallel to ours, or did they not fall from grace (or however is the appropriate way to say that)? And if they didn't ... would they not be "superior" to us, by definition? And if they did ... did/do they have their own alien version of Jesus to save them?

Discuss.


I don't know if it is possible for an alien Adam and Eve to not eat the Apple any more than it was for our Adam and Eve to avoid sinning.

But, Since GOD would have created them, he would have a plan to save them from their sin also.

Note: What I am about to say is not Biblical. It is my personal opinion. So, don't confuse it with anything scriptural.

Think about this. If we are the only "intelligent"( Compared to GOD's intelligence, we are mental midgets), beings that GOD created in his "image"( we might not look like GOD. In GOD's image could mean that he thought about the goofiest looking being he could "imag"ine), once GOD's plan for our redemption was complete, Eternity is a long time to have nothing to do but sing praises to GOD continuously.

The Bible says that their will be a new Heaven and a new Earth. WHY? Once the redemption plan is completed, I can see the need for a new Heaven. Because Satan defiled the old Heaven. But, why a new Earth? Seemingly, there would be no need. UNLESS :!: GOD keeps things interesting and does it all over again. But, as I said. This thought pattern is not Biblical and could open all kinds of cans of worms.


June 17th, 2011, 10:13 am
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
I.E. wrote:
Just asking a question or two, from anyone who desires to answer:

Assuming: There is at least ONE other planet out there with intelligent life forms, and it is believed they would have been created by the one God of the Universe (the God of Abraham?) ...

... did an alien Eve eat a forbidden alien fruit in parallel to ours, or did they not fall from grace (or however is the appropriate way to say that)? And if they didn't ... would they not be "superior" to us, by definition? And if they did ... did/do they have their own alien version of Jesus to save them?

Discuss.


We are not given indication that the Angels had a fall of sin and they are not concidered superior to us. So... there is your answer if you read the Bible.

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June 17th, 2011, 10:19 am
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
steensn wrote:
I.E. wrote:
Just asking a question or two, from anyone who desires to answer:

Assuming: There is at least ONE other planet out there with intelligent life forms, and it is believed they would have been created by the one God of the Universe (the God of Abraham?) ...

... did an alien Eve eat a forbidden alien fruit in parallel to ours, or did they not fall from grace (or however is the appropriate way to say that)? And if they didn't ... would they not be "superior" to us, by definition? And if they did ... did/do they have their own alien version of Jesus to save them?

Discuss.


We are not given indication that the Angels had a fall of sin and they are not concidered superior to us. So... there is your answer if you read the Bible.


Steensn?

Lucifer fell and took 1/3 of the whole host of Angels with him :!:

edited to add: But, I agree that the Angels are not considered by GOD, to be superior to us. Part of the reason so many Angels signed up with Lucifer is because GOD showed us favor over them.


June 17th, 2011, 10:22 am
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
Yes, angels can fall and did per the Bible, BUT that means 2/3 of the angels didn't sin and fall... so that groups meets that paradigm he wanted to address.

Thinking about it a littel deeper, angels were created and put directly in God's presence and had to make the choice to fall. Humans were created almost completly outside God's presence (though he made appearences) and we now have to choose to follow him.

People say "A loving God would have made himself known and created us to start with with no error." Yet we see indications that he took two routes and both failed because when we were created in his image (able to make choices of good and evil) our independent minds were capable of refusing to folow the rules. No matter if he is right in our face or seemingly hidden in creation, the results are the same.

But either way we have another creation, technically aliens, who didn't have what he noted, but are not considered superior... no need to even add conjecture as the Bible had that covered.

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June 17th, 2011, 10:33 am
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
steensn wrote:
Pablo wrote:
I didn't say every star has a planet capable of supporting life. I am, however, pointing out that there could well be life much different than ours that thrives under different conditions. You always talk about limiting possibilities, yet here you are doing exactly the opposite of what you preach. The possibility of other types of life forms, say non carbon based, greatly increases the liklihood of life forms. And even if it is just life forms very much like ours, our very existence proves just how possible it is.


I never limited it to carbon based life forms... but I also never noted other options either so maybe we'll chalk it up to miscommunication. Fact of the matter is, you still need something other than a burning ball of gas. The point I was making was that when I throw the numbers out for pieces of living creatures the chances are astounding and low. When you note all the stars in the universe, it doesn't account for how many planets (or planet thingies) it may have to support life which give better context of the chances just like noting proteins wouldn't randomly fit together till they hit the right combo (increasing the statistical chances).

Pablo wrote:
The Fermi Paradox only exist because you put a false limitation on the possibilities to start with by assuming that other life forms must follow our construct. The truth could be there are many solar systems, like our own, with multiple planets supporting very different forms of life for all we know.


Fermi Paradox doesn't assume carbon based life forms. It says if there is so much chance for other life, why have we yet to find one piece of evidence of it. In any form, carbon, silicon, etc. Pick one of the many option... we still haven't found one dang thing.


We haven't discovered every creature here on our own planet, does that mean they don't exist? Remember the whole conversation about the deep sea. Now add millions of light years to the equation and there is a REALLY SIMPLE explanation.

How many people have traveled to even one other planet within our own solar system? Oh yeah, ZERO. Our technology and understanding of things is in such the infancy stage. We are not that removed from thinking the world is flat or even flight here on Earth. Heck, people still belive in an invisible man living in the sky (to quote Sly) as still being responsible for all of this. We have a LONG way to go before we are advanced enough to start finding evidence of life on other planets even if it is in our own backyard (or solar system).

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June 17th, 2011, 10:54 am
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