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 Astronomy/Scientific Question 
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RIP Killer
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
Pablo wrote:
We haven't discovered every creature here on our own planet, does that mean they don't exist? Remember the whole conversation about the deep sea. Now add millions of light years to the equation and there is a REALLY SIMPLE explanation.


I think you are taking the Fermi Paradox the wrong way. It is just a realization that if the odds of life existing are so abundant then why haven't we found one shred of clear evidence (actual life or alien made stuff) to support life outside of the Earth. It's not a complaint, it is a note that either: It's harder for life to spring up than predicted by "the universe is so big there has to be" and/or because someone HAS to be the first, maybe we really are. It's an observation based on statements made, not a complaint.

Again, I am not against life in the universe. We could find hundreds of planets with living organism of all ranges on them and it doesn't effect my beliefs at all. I'm not against it, but one has to admit... if there was life on other planets (past micro organisms) in our solar system I think we would likely have noticed them. We have some cool projects coming up on checking out some of the moons on Jupiter that has likely liquid water under the frozen surface that is promising.

Pablo wrote:
How many people have traveled to even one other planet within our own solar system? Oh yeah, ZERO. Our technology and understanding of things is in such the infancy stage. We are not that removed from thinking the world is flat or even flight here on Earth. Heck, people still belive in an invisible man living in the sky (to quote Sly) as still being responsible for all of this. We have a LONG way to go before we are advanced enough to start finding evidence of life on other planets even if it is in our own backyard (or solar system).


Yes, we have a long way to go, but that only firms up my point that we have no evidence to support that it is true, not that it couldn't be. We have more evidence that there is a god than we do alien life, that was my point. Anything past the evidence we have (circumstantial or not) is faith, whether other life or a creator being. There is no less faith or belief required...

You state that because we haven't had the capability to ensure life does or doesn't exist that I shouldn't limit the possibility (our right and I haven't). But you won't apply that same logic to God...

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June 17th, 2011, 11:10 am
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RIP Killer
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
steensn wrote:
Pablo wrote:
We haven't discovered every creature here on our own planet, does that mean they don't exist? Remember the whole conversation about the deep sea. Now add millions of light years to the equation and there is a REALLY SIMPLE explanation.


I think you are taking the Fermi Paradox the wrong way. It is just a realization that if the odds of life existing are so abundant then why haven't we found one shred of clear evidence (actual life or alien made stuff) to support life outside of the Earth. It's not a complaint, it is a note that either: It's harder for life to spring up than predicted by "the universe is so big there has to be" and/or because someone HAS to be the first, maybe we really are. It's an observation based on statements made, not a complaint.

Again, I am not against life in the universe. We could find hundreds of planets with living organism of all ranges on them and it doesn't effect my beliefs at all. I'm not against it, but one has to admit... if there was life on other planets (past micro organisms) in our solar system I think we would likely have noticed them. We have some cool projects coming up on checking out some of the moons on Jupiter that has likely liquid water under the frozen surface that is promising.

Pablo wrote:
How many people have traveled to even one other planet within our own solar system? Oh yeah, ZERO. Our technology and understanding of things is in such the infancy stage. We are not that removed from thinking the world is flat or even flight here on Earth. Heck, people still belive in an invisible man living in the sky (to quote Sly) as still being responsible for all of this. We have a LONG way to go before we are advanced enough to start finding evidence of life on other planets even if it is in our own backyard (or solar system).


Yes, we have a long way to go, but that only firms up my point that we have no evidence to support that it is true, not that it couldn't be. We have more evidence that there is a god than we do alien life, that was my point. Anything past the evidence we have (circumstantial or not) is faith, whether other life or a creator being. There is no less faith or belief required...

You state that because we haven't had the capability to ensure life does or doesn't exist that I shouldn't limit the possibility (our right and I haven't). But you won't apply that same logic to God...


First, there is pretty much the same amount of evidence supporting Alien life as there is in God. If you are predisposed to believe in the first place, you can find it. You can look in crop circles, or in the tortilla created from that crop with the image of the Virgin Mary in it. If you look hard enough, you will find it.

I don't know if life exist on other planets, I'm open to the possibility that our planet is the only one supporting life but logic makes me think the chances are pretty good.

BTW - lets apply the logic of the Fermi Paradox to God, if he does exist why haven't we found one "shred of clear evidence"?

Since there isn't evidence supporting either, I turn to logic. And logic dictates to me their is no God but likely life on other planets. Doesn't totally rule out the opposite possibility in either case however. In essence, if we don't have clear evidence we must assume an agnostic stance from a logic standpoint (just like Bigfoot).

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June 17th, 2011, 11:52 am
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
BTW - lets apply the logic of the Fermi Paradox to God, if he does exist why haven't we found one "shred of clear evidence"?

Umm.... yes we have, its just you and many others refuse to believe in Him. But for those who walked, talked, ate, slept and worked alongside Him for three years, and then watched His death, and resurrection, they can tell you EMPHATICALLY that He does exist.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink!

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June 17th, 2011, 12:10 pm
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
That same theory revolves around science, and that was my point for this all along. You have one man telling me that he's done the research to find fuzzy snail toenails, and I choose not to believe him or his writings, unless I wake up with fuzzy snail toenails that I can see, touch, feel, and so on. Then and only then will I believe, the same applies to the Bible, but it just so happens that this historical document was written long ago, and has been re-written time and again to perserve the manuscript.

So what about all the dittos, and microfice, that said scientists logged their stuff on? Were they not re-written by others, because mad scientists are often to busy searching the next mystery to worry about the documentation, or redocumentation of their findings. Does this not discredit their works, because an intern re-wrote their stuff, maybe putting his own flavor on it, because it was him writing and not the mad professor?

40 men, 3 continents, 1500+ years of documentation and personal accounts, and STILL it's not good enough. If you want to see God, and know He exists, Take..... the...... step...... I will walk it with you if you would do me the honor!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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June 17th, 2011, 12:16 pm
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RIP Killer
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
Pablo wrote:
First, there is pretty much the same amount of evidence supporting Alien life as there is in God. If you are predisposed to believe in the first place, you can find it. You can look in crop circles, or in the tortilla created from that crop with the image of the Virgin Mary in it. If you look hard enough, you will find it.

I don't know if life exist on other planets, I'm open to the possibility that our planet is the only one supporting life but logic makes me think the chances are pretty good.

BTW - lets apply the logic of the Fermi Paradox to God, if he does exist why haven't we found one "shred of clear evidence"?



This is where we are in complete agreement...

Pablo wrote:
Since there isn't evidence supporting either, I turn to logic. And logic dictates to me their is no God but likely life on other planets. Doesn't totally rule out the opposite possibility in either case however. In essence, if we don't have clear evidence we must assume an agnostic stance from a logic standpoint (just like Bigfoot).


This is the crux of our disagreement! I think we've gotten somewhere Watson! Ironically it only applies to aliens and god but not allegations of what people have done... but I digress ;)

I see no logical issue with defining a belief in something as faith and acknowledging that you are moving beyond saying "I don't know" to "I believe." As long as you state it as belief and faith, then there is no logical issue because you haven't made a logical fallacy. It is clearly within logic to do so.

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June 17th, 2011, 12:43 pm
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
WarEr4Christ wrote:
BTW - lets apply the logic of the Fermi Paradox to God, if he does exist why haven't we found one "shred of clear evidence"?

Umm.... yes we have, its just you and many others refuse to believe in Him. But for those who walked, talked, ate, slept and worked alongside Him for three years, and then watched His death, and resurrection, they can tell you EMPHATICALLY that He does exist.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink!


I don't need to "believe" in something where "clear evidence" exist.

And if you lead a horse to water, he will drink if he is thirsty. He doesn't need to believe the water exist, he can see it for himself. If you tell a horse you believe water is there, but he doesn't see it, he will not drink that which doesn't exist. Why can't human see as clearly as horses?

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June 17th, 2011, 12:45 pm
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
Because Humans tend to drink anything other than the living water. We don't know the water exists, because we aren't looking for it, and when we do see it, we don't believe that's it, because, quite frankly it's just too simple.

What about the other statement I included, I thought you might of had a perspective on that. But be gentle, because I'm not a scientist, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn, so I'm not entirely sure interns are used for typing up "notes." That was an assumption on my part, but a fairly good possibility.

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June 17th, 2011, 12:50 pm
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RIP Killer
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
WarEr4Christ wrote:
That same theory revolves around science, and that was my point for this all along. You have one man telling me that he's done the research to find fuzzy snail toenails, and I choose not to believe him or his writings, unless I wake up with fuzzy snail toenails that I can see, touch, feel, and so on. Then and only then will I believe, the same applies to the Bible, but it just so happens that this historical document was written long ago, and has been re-written time and again to perserve the manuscript.

So what about all the dittos, and microfice, that said scientists logged their stuff on? Were they not re-written by others, because mad scientists are often to busy searching the next mystery to worry about the documentation, or redocumentation of their findings. Does this not discredit their works, because an intern re-wrote their stuff, maybe putting his own flavor on it, because it was him writing and not the mad professor?

40 men, 3 continents, 1500+ years of documentation and personal accounts, and STILL it's not good enough. If you want to see God, and know He exists, Take..... the...... step...... I will walk it with you if you would do me the honor!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Because there is far more than "shreds" of evidence. You can also hold simple logic to theories we are able to grasp and see if they make sense.

I can't see gravity. But I can read the science behind it and hold simple logic to it. I don't need to see something to know it is real, in other words, but the evidence has to be there.

So lets take your logic and apply it to the, say Qur'an - does that make it true as well? In fact, there are many "historical" documents that you can apply this to, but since they compete in their belief systems they can't all be true, in fact each one claims to be the only truth. So please answer this, since your logic also applies to said Qur'an, and the Vedas and Bhagavad Gita (of Hinduism) or the sutras (of Buddhism) and many other "sacred text" - are they also proof positive of their reputed belief systems? Basically you are saying these are all true given your standards of proof.

If you want to know the TRUTH, suspend you FAITH and really put everything to the test. I'd be happy to walk with you anytime my friend and discuss the real world instead of an imaginary one filled with False Gods, and Angels, and Heavens, and and Hell, and Commandments, and...

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June 17th, 2011, 1:13 pm
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
Actually, in regards to the other faiths, I can only answer that with the doctrine of said faith.

Budha preached the road to enlightenment: things to do.

Mohammed preached the road to paradise through martyrdom, things to do

I can't speak on hinduism,

or others.

So let me make an assumption: All the world religions require man to do! Jesus says DECIDE!

We could sit and have all the conversation you desire, but we'd only be talking about the physical. What I'm advertising, and doing my best to do is show you via typing, that I am offering to INTRODUCE you to a relational, God who wants to get to know you, and you him. It's on a Spiritual, and personal level.

You ask me to suspend my faith, and I can honestly tell you that I can not suspend my faith any more than I can stop breathing. I don't know how, not because "I've been brainwashed;" far from that(I willfully made my own choice, it wasn't forced upon me or drilled into my head like some religions), but because what I've experienced and know is so power, so loving, so 100% completely what I need to exist, to live without Him would be worse than death.

Pablo, you are SO CLOSE to that which you seek, you are so close to being blown away by a Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Omniscient God, who authored the very universe that you marvel at. It is a leap of faith, a willingness to step up to that cliff and jump trusting that He will catch you. Whether you can see it or not doesn't phase me, I am praying for you. I am hoping for you, I am reaching out to you through a website, and type to help encourage you, but in the end, YOU HAVE TO CHOOSE. I know that it's scary, I know there is doubt, but like a father reaching out to his son saying, trust me I'll catch you, I believe you are close to that point.

I promise you He will catch you, and I do not offer up promises easily! My word is my bond, and I stack my integrity behind it. I will walk this with you, to give you a shoulder to lean on, and a place to vent your concerns and questions, but only if you wish me too!

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June 17th, 2011, 1:41 pm
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
Where's the popcorn eating smiley when you need it? This is getting good! :lol:

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June 17th, 2011, 11:20 pm
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
Sly, you're still being prayed for too! So I'm glad to see that you are watching. Do you want butter and salt with that, or maybe powdered cheese?

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June 18th, 2011, 9:00 am
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
Keep praying for me since I'm determined to rot in hell for all eternity. :twisted:

I'm gonna try to put this as simply as I possibly can, so some of you can understand. Most stars, like our sun, are fueled by hydrogen. When it burns during fussion, it creates helium. Although that element is essentially useless, it adds to the process once it begins burning. Helium fussion creates carbon, and to a lesser extent, oxygen. Carbon burning adds more oxygen and heavier elements such as magnesium, iron, and neon.

As everyone knows, we are carbon based lifeforms. We also breathe oxygen and expel carbon dioxide (1 part carbon and 2 parts oxygen). Plant life does the exact opposite. All life is also dependent upon water (2 parts hydrogen and 1 part oxygen). The life cycle of stars creates all of these elements, so what's so difficult to comprehend about life forming elsewhere? Once a high mass, red giant star goes supernova (after 5 billion years or so) , all of these elements are discharged into the universe where gravity can cause them to coalesce. It's really not that much of a reach if you think about it.

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June 18th, 2011, 11:38 am
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
I know you mean it in jest, just because you don't believe in the system at all. But in truth, I think if we could get a real glimpse of what lay before us, we wouldn't joke, and would put the effort into getting to know the Lord.

But regardless, you are being prayed for, and the only day that it will be too late for you is the day you draw your last breath. And since He has that day marked on His calender, and your very breath in his hands, you still have a chance. I mean afterall, if I can make it in, then the entrance exam isn't too tough!

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June 18th, 2011, 8:14 pm
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
Devil Doc, I know that you're going to pray for me, and I appreciate it, even though I believe your attempts are in vain. If I ever see yellow rain falling from the sky without a cloud in sight or stinky brown clumps descending upon us, I may believe that God is just relieving himself. Until that happens though..... :D

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June 19th, 2011, 12:16 am
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
Sly, it won't be my effort, or doing that you will come to know Jesus. All I'm doing is taking your name before Him, saying Father, have you considered my friend Sly? It is up to Him to call you, and it's up to you to respond. So in the end, all I have is prayer and hope that through your jokes, and life choices, you will someday be called, and will make the decision to take the step. I'm sure your family is knocking on the doors of heaven too! So don't mind me, I'll be over here calling in PRAYER STRIKES!

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June 19th, 2011, 2:01 pm
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