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 Astronomy/Scientific Question 
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
This topic is a waste of time because Devil Doc is being intellectually dishonest.

The theory of evolution and the theories of the universe's origin have been studied for decades and decades by some really smart people.

That doesn't mean you should just take them for granted. Smart people are wrong about things all the time.

But you can't just post "Well when a grenade explodes the shrapnel moves out from the center therefore the big bang isn't real. lol" That's just magnitudes of ignorance.

As far as I know, no one on this board has a Phd in a hard science, thus no one is really fully capable of explaining any of these theories 100%. But there are a lot of great books out there that do. I can recommend more if you're interested.

But you aren't. You're biased and closed minded and will simply believe what you want to believe.


June 9th, 2011, 10:59 pm
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
Whenever Devil Doc tries to turn something into a religious discussion, just ignore it. That's what I do. :twisted:

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June 9th, 2011, 11:03 pm
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
Blue, I love you in the Lord, and I hope you will be blessed beyond measure this very day! Your not so veiled attempt to utter type written barbs is actually more funny than hurtful. I could in turn return the favor but what purpose would that serve?

I believe you need to step back and briefly glance over the things I've written here, and if you did, you would see on SEVERAL occasions where I laid NO CLAIMS to be "smart." I opened the topic based on a reality that I have seen personally, and I related it to a much studied, and HYPOTHISIZED (thanks Steensn) subject. Your really smart scientist who've spent large amounts of money, in the end they can only THEORIZED what they THINK happened based upon LIMITED amounts of data collected over the decades. Now if you put that in the context that it is an EDUCATED GUESS, which in truth is all that anyone can really do, then why am I such the buffoon for trying to relate something I've seen personally, to a much bigger scale?

You and your ubereducated scientist are asking me to believe that in the "SPACE OF A PINHEAD" everything exhisted to create all that we now know exists? In the space of a pin head, all the mineral material that was needed to create vast solar systems, stars, and planets was supposedly packed so dense and then exploded outward and it was gravity that helped to form all that we see and know about now? Ok so let's look at gravity: the attraction due to gravitation that the Earth or another astronomical object exerts on an object on or near its surface hmm. Does that mean that there is an origin point? Or is that hidden in a black hole, so therefore we will never be able to discover it? Sounds like looking for signs and wonders to me!

Oh and for your information, sometimes it's the very simple things that causes the "really smart" to stumble.

I love your accusations, because what it tells me is that my very presence, and the faith that I have really annoys you. I believe it annoys you because I'm a living breathing reminder of your ultimate destination, whether you choose to believe it or not doesn't matter, and unless you make the choice, you will be waring against anyone and everyone who represents faith, especially TRUE faith.

I have seen some of the information that "substantiates" the belief system in the BBT. I will tell you that when they start flinging .50 cent words that probably cost them thousands of dollars to be able to pronounce and use in a sentence correctly, I begin to drool.

Again, I have CLEARLY STATED that my intentions are to try and carry out a legitimate conversation based upon information. Although no one here carries a PHD in the hard sciences, they do bring different flavors and beliefs. My friend, an former Marine, and currently an atheist, does not have a PHD in the hard sciences either. In fact, we have blown stuff up together, so that provides the link to my comment about the "grenade."

Trust me, I can understand your angst that I might be willing to take whatever verbal, venomous, vitriol (big word aleart and I used it properly) that you have to spew. I continue to pray for you and Sly, and any amount of cursing, hate mongering, and so on can not stop it. Even if you were to drive to my home and ATTEMPT to physically stop me from praying, I wouldn't.

This subject was and continues to be a legitimate attempt to understand the thought process behind the swallowing of "man's" interpretation of stellar events, and why THAT IS ACCEPTABLE, but they will NOT believe or accept the PROVEN works of the Bible. I see great faith in you and Sly, faith that is willing and capable of moving mountains, it just happens to be on the wrong target at the moment. But we'll see!

So is my mind closed? Yes, I can't hear your verbal attacks! And yes I believe what I want to believe based upon a physical, spiritual interactive relationship that I have. Can I prove it to you? Only in my demonstration of His love, but it's up to you whether or not you receive it.

So I guess by the worlds standards, I'm ignorant, okay can I have my dunce cap, and drool bib now? Because if that's the best you got, then this isn't a fair fight!

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June 10th, 2011, 8:38 am
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
warrior while you may be right about some of the things you posted...I believe Blue was correct in his post as it really does appear that you asked a question, but dont pay attention to any answers , you just spin it with your christian agenda...Im a christian myself and Even I have to admit that it looks more like your question was a ploy to attempt conversion more than it was a search for actual answers. Sorry man but thats exactly how it looks....

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June 10th, 2011, 11:16 am
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
WarEr4Christ wrote:
One thing I have noticed though is that in my earlier discussion there hasn't been a reply made, or at least I don't remember one. For example: people can believe in the theories, and discussions of "scientists" and trust their judgement on that, but do not do the same with the proven, documented information of the Bible. I'm curious as to why there seems to be a double standard. From my perspective it goes back to the ultimate destination. If we accept the Biblical view, then we will have to answer for the decision to accept or deny the Lord. But if we choose to reject the Biblical view, then we can make up a story of our choosing, even though this doesn't affect the overall truth of Scripture.

So, you're saying the Bible has been repeatedly PROVEN to be FACTUALLY ACCURATE? :? When did this happen? Perhaps what you meant to say was that you BELIEVE it to be PROVEN.

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June 10th, 2011, 12:59 pm
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
RG12, that goes back to opinion or perception. 9 times out of 10 I will briefly scan through responses and respond to what hits the hot button. So I very well may have missed some of his answers, but as for spinning it, I think that is where the opinion comes in. Did I have a legitimate reason for asking the question? Yes, did I also know that some on here are in line with the thinking I would be going up against, that is why I was waiting for their responses.

But at the same time, I am not going to just take another mans word for it because he has a sheeps skin on the wall. He may have earned the right to hang it, but it's worldly teaching, and can you honestly tell me tht science has truly been non-biased in these particular sciences? If anything they lean more left than middle.

Wags: What would you like proven? King David? Paul? Jesus? How about Noah's Ark? All of these stories have been proven in one way or another, so yes I would say the Bible is factually correct. Another reason why I would stand by that statement is actually two part.

1. The things of God can not be readily understood by the "unbeliever" because they are of the Spirit. So things that require faith in order to believe, would be seen as nonsense, crazy, a lie and so on by the unbeliever. Just because they choose not to believe does not change the truth in anyway.

2. The last book Revelations goes on to say that anyone who adds or takes away from anything recorded will be subject to the plagues recorded or his/her life will be taken away from the tree of life. So anything that has been "added" as an arguement to those who would say it was man's word and not God's, will pay the punishment if needed. As for me, I seek a greater degree of the master instead of a masters degree.

I may be foolish, and any number of labels that anyone wishes to throw out, but of one thing you can be sure, I'm trying my best to be real, and transparent. So if I have missed answers to questions, my mistake, and point me in the right direction agains so I could see it.



Oh and just to add a little flavor, the question was generated from some answers that were shared by the institute for creation research, who had many answers to these questions from a Christian standpoint, but I wanted to hear what some of my more thoughtful friends who don't believe had to say.

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June 10th, 2011, 1:31 pm
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
ok bro...I hear ya..but for the record it does LOOK like a setup....and thats comming from a christian. If conversion really is your greatest desire you really need to consider a different approach. No one is ever going to be talked into becoming a christian..well not a real one anyway, at most you'll get someone who will go throiugh the motions. and espacially with the skeptics you are really going to fail. all this talk will look like nothing more than a sales pitch and you will meet nothing but resistance.(like you have been...constantly). I have found that by living an example and being there to answer questions of the curious has a MUCH better chance of getting the results your looking for than by telling people how wrong they are.....Just a tip I've benn meaning to suggest for ever...



/end derailment

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June 10th, 2011, 3:00 pm
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
RGJoe: which goes back to my original point that the reason behind asking these questions was not to convert anyone. I already have a good friendship with my former platoon sergeant. He has used the BBt arguement for his belief system and backed it up with a couple of Youtube Brits as proof of what he believes.

In asking the question here, I knew that Sly and Pablo had similar belief structures and that is why I asked questions like: why can we choose to believe the testimony of this scientist who supposedly has done the research, and not the testimony of a long dead author who also provided eyewitness testimonies to what they saw. The evolution theory came in as another subject and I responded to it, based upon what I thought was an intelligent question. The fact that Blue is torqued at me in my opinion, has more to do with my willingness to discuss my faith and his adversion to it, than any real reasons. I haven't personally attacked him, or called him out for his beliefs, in spite of them. I just believe that he is absolutely against Christianity and anyone who would represent it, and more power to him, but I'm still going to pray for him and the others.
The Biblical references and references of my faith were getting away from me, because as I've told Pablo, I don't want to push my faith, as much as demonstrate it. However, in this context there is a very fine line because how can I demonstrate before people I've never met, and probably never will, unless I print it up. But I can definitely understand where it was becoming overpowering, and for that I truly apologize because I'd rather make a friend than chase one away.

My intentions were sincere, it just got away from me, with some hot button responses. At the same time, I don't want to be a sidewalk, sky is falling false prophet. See 1 Corin. 13 1-3, "If i can speak all the languages of man and have not love, I am a resounding gong (annoyance). That is what I've taken from today's lesson and so that is why I'm done with the topic.

No offense intended to anyone, I was legitimately trying to compare popular known theory with my legitimate shared experiences (blowing stuff up) and trying to figure out how the BBT related. So yes I demonstrated some ignorance on the scientific level, but it wasn't a purposeful set up.

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June 10th, 2011, 3:34 pm
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
I wouldn't worry about it too much. Its part of the individual process of finding answers to questions that prop up. And through their own process is where they develop faith.

And my biggest issues personally, is don't try to convert. We're supposed to be fisher of men. You bait the hook and you set it out there. Live your life and let them see God in you. They'll come to you. How many fish have you caught by beating the fish over the head with bait?

Be an example.


June 10th, 2011, 3:51 pm
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
NJ very well said sir..you have shown me exactly why you are a damn fine journalist. you have a way with words that I simply do not. Kudos.


Warrior. sigh....Im really trying to say something here and not be offensive at all. I just want to tell you about an observation that can be made even in your last post....and Im affraid I might say sothing that could be viewed as offensive and that is not my intent at all..so please bear with me.

You sir are VERY dedicated. I dont mean that as a bad thing, but you are so devoted I think you could got to Denny's and order your grand slam and find a way to incorporate that in gospel! once again..im not saying thats a bad thing, but thats just seems to be who you are at your core. you cant post about a piece of bubblegum without bringing the lord into it.

And While I compliment you on your faith, and will even suggest that you may be a better christain than me because you probbly dont have as many slips as i do due to your REALLY HIGH levls of dedication. (assuming you are consistant in backing up your words with action, and you have given me no reason to believe otherwise) the problem that you face, here and Im willing to bet everywhere, is that your faith is so strong that it gives an "in your face" impression. whether or not thats true doesn't matter though cuz perception is 90% of reality. You actually turn off more people about Christ than you turn on.

I know it's weird, I know it shouldnt be that way as you are just speaking the truth as you know it, but like I said skeptics are going to be offended by your dedication, not admire it.

Viewing the way you post here I would suggest that maybe your caling isnt so much to convert the lost, but to help those that are found stay the path. You dedication can be seen as a sign of stregth and admiration to those who beieve, but to those who don't, you will be viewed as...well....the way Pablo, Wags, and the various others view you.

I hope I didnt offend brother as I have no ill will towards you, I just wanted to have you think about things from an outsiders perspective..it may bring you more peace.

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June 10th, 2011, 4:24 pm
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
WarEr4Christ wrote:
In asking the question here, I knew that Sly and Pablo had similar belief structures and that is why I asked questions like: why can we choose to believe the testimony of this scientist who supposedly has done the research, and not the testimony of a long dead author who also provided eyewitness testimonies to what they saw.


First, we don't take things as gospel when a scientist claims something based on his research. And even if we accept it as a good theory, it is still just that and we are open to the idea of a better one replacing it. This scientist lives in modern times, he can be challenged (and proven wrong), his work is well documented and can be authenticated.

The authorship of the Bible has been, and likely will always be very much in question. You have a number of stories written, some were included in the current version of the good book while others discarded.

Your authors lived thousands of years ago. They can't be challenged. They didn't have research. Eyewitness testimonies, really that is what you want to build your beliefs around? Funny how even today so many "eyewitness" convictions are now being overturned thanks to science (DNA testing). These falsely accused criminals have spent the better part of their lives in jail based on eyewitness accounts. And these are from the 20th century.

Do you realize your "eyewitness" accounts all happend 2,000+ years ago, often passed down by word and written about decades latter in the Bible. And you give it "beyond reasonable" doubt in your faith. Honestly, I'm just flabergasted by it all.

The proof you speak of also doesn't exist. Let's take one you picked out, say Noah's ark. I've heard rumors of it being found since I saw a movie on the discovery as a little boy (and believer) back in the 70's. Some 30 years later, I'm still hearing fanatical and unjustified claims. There is not one shread of evidence that each creature today evolved from a male and female on an ark. The whole premise was kind of silly anyway when you think about it, I mean Noah could have just survived on a little boat and once the flood subsided God could have snapped his fingers and poof all the animals are once again created. There may be evidence of past floods, in fact there are, heck there are also evidence of recent floods (some this year) - that doesn't prove Noah's ark ever existed. In fact, imagine the only human survivors from a flood not that long ago where Noah and his family, how could explain all the various human races in existence today. Oh wait, you couldn't which is proof that it never happened in the first place if you really think about it.

That said, WarEr4Christ has never had a hidden agenda so I don't think there were any issues with the way he posed the question and we all knew where this thread was going.

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June 10th, 2011, 4:43 pm
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
Actually, it is I who is concerned about having offended. Pablo, Sly, and Blue all know my stance about Christianity. Your answers and cautions actually caught my attention and helped me to realize that I am presuming too much. For that I offer my sincerest apologies to all those who've been offended.

As I said, it's a lesson learned, and my intentions were honorable, but it got away from me. Is that the story of life though. However, I am encouraged to identify other Christians on this board, but I am definitely going to scale back my zeal. As you said, bait the hook, don't through dynamite in the water. Not the BBT that I was looking for.....

Thanks fellas, I appreciate the concern and caution.

Pablo: I didn't mean to presume that I knew your life at all, when I mentioned you being scarred. For that I apologize, and hope you can accept my apology as misplaced zeal.

Blue: I definitely was trying to ask legitimate questions and not set you up as it's been stated. And I was waiting for Sly's answer, as he has stated that Astronomy was one of his passions, and I thought it would be an interesting topic and maybe debate. But it wasn't supposed to be an argument.

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June 10th, 2011, 4:47 pm
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
WarEr4Christ wrote:
Pablo: I didn't mean to presume that I knew your life at all, when I mentioned you being scarred. For that I apologize, and hope you can accept my apology as misplaced zeal.


Not at all. I'm a big fan of your zeal, misplaced or not. I know that deep down you truly care and are doing what you think is best for us and I appreciate that, again if misplaced or not.

I'm not scarred at all. In fact, the only time I was "scarred" about things like this was when I was young and just grasping things. I didn't want to go to hell, which I was told would happen if I ever did this or that.

No apologies needed my friend, it is all good. And if I ever come across to strong it is only in the attempt to make a point (as I'm sure you may do as well), let me appologize in advance. I do not intend to offend, although I'm sure it can come across that way.

To each his own, who am I too judge (although it is really hard not to at times).

Peace out!

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June 10th, 2011, 4:53 pm
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
Pablo: Have you seen the recent "discovery of Noah's ark" as found by a joint Christian Chinese and Turkish research team. It's on youtube, and it made a brief splash in May of 10. However, I remember hearing that it was deemed a hoax. Did anyone truly reach out to authenticate that? Or would doing so authenticate the story, therefore authenticating the flood, which would fly in the face of many extinction theories. For example: One piece of info I've heard is that in particular clefts of the mountains, basically those features that look more like a cut in the earth (theres a name for them and I can't remember it) that are filled with fossils of many different types of species. The hypothesis is that carcasses were washed in by a huge flood, and that's the only way whale bones could be found that high up.

From my perspective, instead of launching a non-biased research team filled with Christians, Atheist, and Scientist, let's follow the route of the Chino/Turks and see if 1. it was really a hoax. 2. what is it they discovered? 3. and let's investigate it.

But I believe that no one wants to do that, because the risk of proving the story from the Bible true, would totally upset the present belief system about fossils, and extinction. Turkey doesn't want it to happen either because of the same reasoning, because that would authenticate the Bible, and then that goes back to Isaac and Ishmael. I know this is a stretch, and or a spin of perspective, but can you see how it would be easier to dismiss it as a hoax, instead of truly finding out, because we don't want to run the risk of authenticating it.

Maybe it's a Biblical Conspiracy Theory eh?

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June 10th, 2011, 4:57 pm
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
WarEr4Christ wrote:
Wags: What would you like proven? King David? Paul? Jesus? How about Noah's Ark? All of these stories have been proven in one way or another, so yes I would say the Bible is factually correct. Another reason why I would stand by that statement is actually two part.

1. The things of God can not be readily understood by the "unbeliever" because they are of the Spirit. So things that require faith in order to believe, would be seen as nonsense, crazy, a lie and so on by the unbeliever. Just because they choose not to believe does not change the truth in anyway.

2. The last book Revelations goes on to say that anyone who adds or takes away from anything recorded will be subject to the plagues recorded or his/her life will be taken away from the tree of life. So anything that has been "added" as an arguement to those who would say it was man's word and not God's, will pay the punishment if needed. As for me, I seek a greater degree of the master instead of a masters degree.

I may be foolish, and any number of labels that anyone wishes to throw out, but of one thing you can be sure, I'm trying my best to be real, and transparent. So if I have missed answers to questions, my mistake, and point me in the right direction agains so I could see it.

Care to provide said "proof"?

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June 10th, 2011, 5:05 pm
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