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 Astronomy/Scientific Question 
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
BillySims wrote:
Pablo wrote:
BillySims wrote:
Actually, we were quite safe until we became disobedient and rejected him. But, you already know that.


A loving and forgiving God?


He does love you. And he is faithful and just to forgive you. All you have to do to get that forgiveness is honestly acknowledge him as your creator, repent of your sins against him, and ASK for his forgiveness.


So conditional love - no thanks!

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August 15th, 2011, 3:07 pm
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
What do safe and good have to do with each other? You are claiming that God isn't good because He didn't make the world safe. But I want to remind you that the world WAS safe, till sin entered in.

In looking at Scripture as a point of reference, the first case of blood being shed in the Garden of Eden, was only AFTER sin came into the world, and God shed the blood of animals to make a covering for the nakedness of Adam and Eve. Prior to that no animal feasted on another, no man feasted upon animal.

But saying God isn't good because we don't live in a Utopia is implying YOUR measure of goodness upon Him. God is good, and made man for relationship, not strict obedience. Adam and Eve walked in the garden WITH God, talked with Him face to face without worry, and then came deception and wooed them away. That created a void between man and God that could not be crossed. Animal sacrifice became the way to atone for sin, to "cover" it up, until Christ Jesus. Then when He died upon the cross, His shedding of blood, paid the ulitmate blood sacrifice.

So, I'm sorry you have your boo boos but life was never meant to be easy in sin, scripture goes on to speak of the toil and struggle to survive, including the pain that goes with it. Life may have been much different had our first parents obeyed.

Let me ask you something, do you want your children to love you because you tell them too, or do you want them to love you because they want to? It's the free will choice that mankind has towards God. He could demand it, and we'd be born without a choice, and therefore become robots who act on command, or He could run the risk and give us a choice to choose and accept or decline. As a parent, that choice is difficult but you want a response out of desire from your kids, you don't want a response from a robot right?

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August 15th, 2011, 3:11 pm
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
Pablo wrote:
BillySims wrote:
Pablo wrote:
BillySims wrote:
Actually, we were quite safe until we became disobedient and rejected him. But, you already know that.


A loving and forgiving God?


He does love you. And he is faithful and just to forgive you. All you have to do to get that forgiveness is honestly acknowledge him as your creator, repent of your sins against him, and ASK for his forgiveness.


So conditional love - no thanks!


No. His love is unconditional. His forgiveness, however, IS CONDITIONAL.


August 15th, 2011, 3:14 pm
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
WarEr4Christ wrote:
What do safe and good have to do with each other? You are claiming that God isn't good because He didn't make the world safe. But I want to remind you that the world WAS safe, till sin entered in.

In looking at Scripture as a point of reference, the first case of blood being shed in the Garden of Eden, was only AFTER sin came into the world, and God shed the blood of animals to make a covering for the nakedness of Adam and Eve. Prior to that no animal feasted on another, no man feasted upon animal.

But saying God isn't good because we don't live in a Utopia is implying YOUR measure of goodness upon Him. God is good, and made man for relationship, not strict obedience. Adam and Eve walked in the garden WITH God, talked with Him face to face without worry, and then came deception and wooed them away. That created a void between man and God that could not be crossed. Animal sacrifice became the way to atone for sin, to "cover" it up, until Christ Jesus. Then when He died upon the cross, His shedding of blood, paid the ulitmate blood sacrifice.

So, I'm sorry you have your boo boos but life was never meant to be easy in sin, scripture goes on to speak of the toil and struggle to survive, including the pain that goes with it. Life may have been much different had our first parents obeyed.

Let me ask you something, do you want your children to love you because you tell them too, or do you want them to love you because they want to? It's the free will choice that mankind has towards God. He could demand it, and we'd be born without a choice, and therefore become robots who act on command, or He could run the risk and give us a choice to choose and accept or decline. As a parent, that choice is difficult but you want a response out of desire from your kids, you don't want a response from a robot right?


I was speaking about him as a parent, from my own parent perspective.

To answer your question, I want my children to love me because I love them. I know that wasn't exactly your question, but that is exactly my answer. I certainly don't want them to worship me or ask me for forgiveness if they happen to sin. As a parent, it really doesn't matter - it is called "unconditional" love. If my kids don't love me, it won't matter. If my kids sin, it won't matter (my forgiveness is also unconditional). And IF there was a God, it wouldn't matter either.

By that, I'm not saying there isn't a God - I'm saying the rules of the relationship between man and God would not, IMO, be as you stated. As for those of you who are parents, I certainly hope you can recognize that!

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August 15th, 2011, 3:20 pm
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
Pablo, again... pick one. Either he isn't loving or he isn't just.

Again, you don't protect your child from EVERY thing that COULD happen to them. Don't act like like somehow you don't get exactly what I said, you got the gist... don't play coy about it.

You want God to justly judge us by our actions and when he out of love let's us ask for forgiveness to be with him. Then you counter with him not being loving because he doesn't force everyone into heaven... again... PICK ONE. Stop contradicting yourself...

You love your kids but correct them when they make mistakes out of your love for them because it is for their end benefit. If God isn't loving because he does the same thing then you are saying you then don't love your children. Double standards, you love your kids more than anything and for that same reason God corrects us the same way you correct the children you love. Don't be blatantly ignorant to practices you do as a good parent...

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August 15th, 2011, 4:42 pm
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
Oh Pablo, you are SO close to seeing it, so very close....

I want my children to love me because I love them. exactly, God wants us to love him, because He loves us.

Let me ask you, would you die for your children? Would you sacrifice your life for theirs, especially if they were in danger?

God did! He realized that man because of sin, was incapable of crossing the void I spoke of earlier. No amount of works, good living, or happy choices would get us across the void. Because of sin and it's penalty of death, someone needed to satisfy the demands of the laws penalty by being that sacrifice. So God made a way, in that Jesus came and paid that penalty for us.

I certainly don't want them to worship me or ask me for forgiveness if they happen to sin. but do your kids ever need to say I'm sorry? "You hit your brother and that's not right, go tell him you're sorry!" or "Dad, I'm sorry I broke your favorite pocket knife!" That is what we Christians are talking about.

Worship is an expression of love! You love your wife so you spend time with her, enjoy the aspects of relations between husbands and wives, and express love in other ways. This is a form of worship, in that you are showing her value to you in your life. PLEASE don't take on the false picture of a mindless idiot bowing down before a statue of his creation, slobbering certain key phrases, because that's what he's EXPECTED to do. Pablo, that is so wrong, and that is why I keep sharing that HEAD knowledge is not going to help you understand...

God is a God of relationship, He loves you and wants for you to know Him. There is NO possible way that we can completely understand how good, deep, and wide His love for us is. Our minds can't grasp it. We can barely handle the universe, let alone our own world! God created us for relationship, and we cheated on him! But unlike most human relationships, He didn't throw us out, He said, "I am jealous for you, I want you back." There is no FORCE in anything He does, till judgment, and then it will be too late.

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August 15th, 2011, 4:51 pm
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
steensn wrote:
Pablo, again... pick one. Either he isn't loving or he isn't just.

Again, you don't protect your child from EVERY thing that COULD happen to them. Don't act like like somehow you don't get exactly what I said, you got the gist... don't play coy about it.

You want God to justly judge us by our actions and when he out of love let's us ask for forgiveness to be with him. Then you counter with him not being loving because he doesn't force everyone into heaven... again... PICK ONE. Stop contradicting yourself...

You love your kids but correct them when they make mistakes out of your love for them because it is for their end benefit. If God isn't loving because he does the same thing then you are saying you then don't love your children. Double standards, you love your kids more than anything and for that same reason God corrects us the same way you correct the children you love. Don't be blatantly ignorant to practices you do as a good parent...


Pick one, easy, loving. As for heaven, you are bringing another argument into this one and taking it out of context. As I stated in that argument, if he is a loving God then everyone gets in. (To flip it, if he was a just God he would let in Ghandi and not Hitler which isn't the case according the the "rules"). I was pointing out two different methods he should use as to allow people into heaven instead of worship (by hey, I guess ego has a lot more to do with it).

I do correct my kids when they make a mistake, like any good parent. Does God, well no since he doesn't get involved - again, another sign of a very poor parent - it CPS here yet?

How does God correct us? He certainly doesn't use the SMART (specific, measurable, achievable, relevant and timely) techniques now does he. No, he is more like that parent that leaves their child in the car with triple digit temperatures outside - aka nothing!

WarEr4Christ wrote:
Oh Pablo, you are SO close to seeing it, so very close....

I want my children to love me because I love them. exactly, God wants us to love him, because He loves us.

Let me ask you, would you die for your children? Would you sacrifice your life for theirs, especially if they were in danger?

God did! He realized that man because of sin, was incapable of crossing the void I spoke of earlier. No amount of works, good living, or happy choices would get us across the void. Because of sin and it's penalty of death, someone needed to satisfy the demands of the laws penalty by being that sacrifice. So God made a way, in that Jesus came and paid that penalty for us.

I certainly don't want them to worship me or ask me for forgiveness if they happen to sin. but do your kids ever need to say I'm sorry? "You hit your brother and that's not right, go tell him you're sorry!" or "Dad, I'm sorry I broke your favorite pocket knife!" That is what we Christians are talking about.

Worship is an expression of love! You love your wife so you spend time with her, enjoy the aspects of relations between husbands and wives, and express love in other ways. This is a form of worship, in that you are showing her value to you in your life. PLEASE don't take on the false picture of a mindless idiot bowing down before a statue of his creation, slobbering certain key phrases, because that's what he's EXPECTED to do. Pablo, that is so wrong, and that is why I keep sharing that HEAD knowledge is not going to help you understand...

God is a God of relationship, He loves you and wants for you to know Him. There is NO possible way that we can completely understand how good, deep, and wide His love for us is. Our minds can't grasp it. We can barely handle the universe, let alone our own world! God created us for relationship, and we cheated on him! But unlike most human relationships, He didn't throw us out, He said, "I am jealous for you, I want you back." There is no FORCE in anything He does, till judgment, and then it will be too late.


Did God sacrifice himself for his children? Or was it his child who he sacrificed? Please do not compare me as a parent to your God, I could not be more insulted. I would never sacrifice one of my children under any condition. Let me ask you this, would you?

We can understand God's love for us in his actions. We attribute every good things to him, time to start attributing all the bad things to him as well. Then you will see the shocking level of love he has for us. This God you speak of causes the most innocent children among us to suffer imaginable pain, would you ever love your children like that?

Speaking of double standards, you can't have it both ways if your eyes are open.

Also, for all you believers out there - would you let God babysit your kids?

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August 15th, 2011, 5:03 pm
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
Pablo wrote:

Pick one, easy, loving. As for heaven, you are bringing another argument into this one and taking it out of context. As I stated in that argument, if he is a loving God then everyone gets in. (To flip it, if he was a just God he would let in Ghandi and not Hitler which isn't the case according the the "rules"). I was pointing out two different methods he should use as to allow people into heaven instead of worship (by hey, I guess ego has a lot more to do with it).

I do correct my kids when they make a mistake, like any good parent. Does God, well no since he doesn't get involved - again, another sign of a very poor parent - it CPS here yet?

How does God correct us? He certainly doesn't use the SMART (specific, measurable, achievable, relevant and timely) techniques now does he. No, he is more like that parent that leaves their child in the car with triple digit temperatures outside - aka nothing!

------

Did God sacrifice himself for his children? Or was it his child who he sacrificed? Please do not compare me as a parent to your God, I could not be more insulted. I would never sacrifice one of my children under any condition. Let me ask you this, would you?

We can understand God's love for us in his actions. We attribute every good things to him, time to start attributing all the bad things to him as well. Then you will see the shocking level of love he has for us. This God you speak of causes the most innocent children among us to suffer imaginable pain, would you ever love your children like that?

Speaking of double standards, you can't have it both ways if your eyes are open.

Also, for all you believers out there - would you let God babysit your kids?


You keep mixing up what YOU think is best for us and not what IS best for us. Your claim is, "If God doesn't protect us THIS way, he's not a good parent because this is how I do it and think it should be done." That is a bold and ignorant presumption you are smarter than to make. Again, your value proposition for a judgement scale is NOT the same as given by the Bible so stop acting like there is missing logic. You are disagreeing with the axioms, not the logic. Don't produce this phony argument, it waste all our time and is insulting.

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August 15th, 2011, 5:37 pm
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
steensn wrote:
Pablo wrote:

Pick one, easy, loving. As for heaven, you are bringing another argument into this one and taking it out of context. As I stated in that argument, if he is a loving God then everyone gets in. (To flip it, if he was a just God he would let in Ghandi and not Hitler which isn't the case according the the "rules"). I was pointing out two different methods he should use as to allow people into heaven instead of worship (by hey, I guess ego has a lot more to do with it).

I do correct my kids when they make a mistake, like any good parent. Does God, well no since he doesn't get involved - again, another sign of a very poor parent - it CPS here yet?

How does God correct us? He certainly doesn't use the SMART (specific, measurable, achievable, relevant and timely) techniques now does he. No, he is more like that parent that leaves their child in the car with triple digit temperatures outside - aka nothing!

------

Did God sacrifice himself for his children? Or was it his child who he sacrificed? Please do not compare me as a parent to your God, I could not be more insulted. I would never sacrifice one of my children under any condition. Let me ask you this, would you?

We can understand God's love for us in his actions. We attribute every good things to him, time to start attributing all the bad things to him as well. Then you will see the shocking level of love he has for us. This God you speak of causes the most innocent children among us to suffer imaginable pain, would you ever love your children like that?

Speaking of double standards, you can't have it both ways if your eyes are open.

Also, for all you believers out there - would you let God babysit your kids?


You keep mixing up what YOU think is best for us and not what IS best for us. Your claim is, "If God doesn't protect us THIS way, he's not a good parent because this is how I do it and think it should be done." That is a bold and ignorant presumption you are smarter than to make. Again, your value proposition for a judgement scale is NOT the same as given by the Bible so stop acting like there is missing logic. You are disagreeing with the axioms, not the logic. Don't produce this phony argument, it waste all our time and is insulting.


steensn, with all due respect I'm not saying what I think a good parent would do - I'm saying what pretty much any parent would say. God had a son, he sent him here to die - sound like good parenting to you? Thank goodness my judgement isn't the same as given by the Bible, I'd be incarcerated for sure if I used that type of judgement.

Do you really think the Bible contains what is best for us? Do you plan on treating your children much like God treats his children in the Bible? (and please at least attempt to answer my questions once in a while, rather than )

Sorry my "phony argument" is a waste of all of your time and is insulting, I honestly tried to answer questions and respond to your comments. You told me to pick one, I did and you still aren't satisfied - shouldn't surprise me I guess.

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August 15th, 2011, 6:15 pm
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
Again... you are talking apples and oranges. Jesus is God, he sent himself to die... let's not miss that little detail.

Stop ignoring the issue... you want God to wrap us in bubble wrap and then force us to love him. You don't protect your kid that much and you keep mentioning over and over how we have to learn to think for ourselves, yet when Ghandi ultimately desires not to be with God and Hitler at the last minute decides he wants to be with God he honors BOTH request you say he isn't just or loving?

Simply put, you are saying God cannot be loving unless he creates robots. Heaven isn't getting a pile of gold and living in a mansion, it's focus and glory is being with God. If you don't like or don't want to be near the God of the Bible he honors your request instead of forcing you to. You can twist it anyway you want Pablo... but you have zero attempt to understand the implications of your gest.

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August 15th, 2011, 6:54 pm
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
Pablo: God stated in Genesis, let US create man in OUR image. Male and female, He created them. So God the one in relationship, Father, Son, Holy Spirit, formed man for relationship. Jesus came to be the final sacrifice, He wasn't ordered, wasn't directed, He came.

As Steensn said, Jesus is God, and so God sent himself to pay the price for our sin. He did this because He loves us. So please don't confuse the issue, Jesus although being the Son, didn't follow the orders of the father, He came to be the sacrifice to restore the relationship. This is something that only God could do, because man would never be good enough to be the perfect sacrifice.

So God the father didn't sacrifice His son, His son sacrificed himself so that many other brothers and sisters could come to the father "through" his sacrifice.

I'm not trying to insult you in bring the correlation with your children, as much as draw a picture of how your love for your family is similar to God's love for His family. The difficulty is, that we have an enemy that hates the very thing that we are. Sons and daughters of God. Man was created to bear the image of God, male and female, in that image. Satan who is created by God and is God's enemy can't attack or defeat God so he goes after that which he can attack and defeat. Every human that is born and walks the Earth is a child of God. Some just happen to be deceived, or lost. So it is up to us that know him, to reach out and rescue our brothers and sisters wherever they are. But our enemy knows this and fights and deceives and so the battle becomes fierce. I, you, Billy, Steesn, can't save them all, but we can save 1 or two or three. So we Christians go and try to have an influence in lives and maybe we can rescue someone, and then move on to the next person, while ministering to the first. It's all about relationships.

Through the course of our many discussions, I've gotten to know your perspective and beliefs more and more. I may not agree with them but I can appreciate your standpoint. I like that I've come to know you a little better, as much as one can through a computer thread, and so that is why I continue to pray for you. Not because I'll get a tally mark to put on my Bible, or get the choice seat in church, but because we've formed a "computer" friendship, as limited as that is...

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August 15th, 2011, 10:04 pm
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
If you had a friend, and you knew he was on a dangerous and destructive path, wouldn't you do everything you could to reroute him/her? All we are trying to do is reroute our friends from a destructive path. If we just let you all go on your path to destruction without doing all we could for you, what kind of friends would we be?


August 15th, 2011, 10:24 pm
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
Not to mention Billy, Heaven would be pretty lonely without friends to share it with.

I believe there is a chasm standing in the way of Pablo. For him to make the leap, is going to take all of the faith, and trust he can muster. I sense a frustration that he can't find a way to climb down, or walk down, or even repel. He's approaching or come to the edge, and being restricted to one choice is very disturbing. I COMPLETELY understand. But Pablo also has a cheering section, people who want him to make the jump, people who've made the jump and know what's at the end of the drop. We can't explain it, we can't describe it, because in the process of the fall, our worlds change. We no longer live for me, we live for Him because of the overwhelming love we have experienced.

It's like a veteran returning from combat, he can tell you all the stories, show you some pictures, and maybe even give you a few shell casings, but until you've experienced the exhiliration, fear, adrenaline, and comradeship, there is nothing that can translate that.

So pray for the day that Pablo, Mineral, Blue, and SLy make the jump! Don't push them, let them make the choice, but lift them before the Lord in prayer as much as you are able.

I am including a brief excerpt from a daily devotion by John Eldredge. If you have not read anything he's written I would strongly encourage it. I've read everything he's published but one or two books. It has done amazing things for my journey.

Pablo: you say you like to read, then let me encourage you to read this small allegory that is quite powerful, and I think would identify with where you are at. "Hinds feet in High places" by Hannah Hunard. I'm in the process of finishing up the book and I'm amazed at it. Now for the devotional excerpt:

"Our sin is that stubborn part inside that wants, above all else, to be independent. There's a part of us fiercely committed to living in a way where we do not have to depend on anyone-especially God. Then culture comes along with figures like John Wayne and James Bond and all those other "real men," and the one thing they have in common is that they are loners; they don't need anyone. We come to believe deep in our hearts that needing anyone for anything is a sort of weakness, a handicap. "

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August 16th, 2011, 8:31 am
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
WarEr4Christ wrote:
Through the course of our many discussions, I've gotten to know your perspective and beliefs more and more. I may not agree with them but I can appreciate your standpoint. I like that I've come to know you a little better, as much as one can through a computer thread, and so that is why I continue to pray for you. Not because I'll get a tally mark to put on my Bible, or get the choice seat in church, but because we've formed a "computer" friendship, as limited as that is...


Ditto. FYI - obviously I use extreme examples to make my point and to amplify things a bit for the sake of discussion.

I'm glad that each of you finds strength in God. For me, I find strength in other things and find I don't need "God" in my life. I'm sorry if that saddens some of you, it is just the way I am now. I can sense the angst that believers have for non-believers, I prefer to live angst free. It does have to be tough when you truly believe that folks you have developed any sort of relationship with are going to go to hell. I don't think this way anymore, it is quite liberating.

Feel free to continue to pray for me, although it will have no effect on my life if it makes you feel better than I see no harm. I also do appreciate the kind thoughts that are behind it.

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August 16th, 2011, 9:43 am
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Post Re: Astronomy/Scientific Question
I honestly dont know why you guys keep at this...yer never going to change Pablos mind...it was a decent conversation 3-4 years ago...but it's pretty much become wash-rinse-repeat forever now.

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August 16th, 2011, 1:30 pm
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