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 Has anyone seen this show? 
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Post Re: Has anyone seen this show?
WarEr4Christ wrote:
they guys says he has seen prayer work (if you are looking for it you will find it),

Could the same be true of God????

:P


Thank you! same can be said for the exact opposite. If all your doing is looking to debunk something, thats all you are going to find.

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June 28th, 2011, 11:57 am
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Post Re: Has anyone seen this show?
steensn wrote:
No Pablo... it just shows how well we actually understand what the test proves. It is the most comprehensive test to date on prayer and results... no question. But it still doesn't address the issue that if you can find ONE single instance where it is clear supernatural healing took place that you have then proven prayer does something.

What these test results show is that over a pretty large sample base, statistical anomolies are easily greater than any effect prayer had on the test group. It DOES NOT prove prayer doesn't do anything, to say so show how little a person actually understands of what the test results mean. Another wild card here is that there was no control put in place regarding the control group... who can identify that they were NOT prayed for? Statistically one can assume MANY of the control group actually had persons praying for them, maybe not just the one of the three churches. There is simply nothing to say this test is conclusive because it is clear that one cannot really put the controls in place as one would need to do have a clean test.

The contention is that prayers does things, to what extent or level I think is where this study comes into play. The issue is, you want to jump on the "facts" badnwagon, yet it is clear these are not facts, just studies. You are overstating the test results.


First, "if you can find ONE single instance where it is clear supernatural healing took place that you have then proven prayer does something" isn't true. For example, what if that ONE single instance takes place in a Buddhist country with no prayer. And therein lies the problem, you can replicate any instance with prayer with an equally "miraculous" recovery, etc., where no prayer was involved.

And I'm sorry, you are right and obvioulsy understand surveys and statistical analysis better than the experts who conducted this one.

If you don't think these studies produce facts, so be it. I get it, you are invested in the "power of prayer" even though prayer has no power. It isn't just this study and others, it is other statistics and common sense. For example, if prayer really had any power wouldn't believers have either less occurance of disease or higher recovery rates? That would make sense since you are making a link between prayer and an actual result. Correct? But since there is no lowered risk or higher recovery rate then the reverse must be true - prayer has zero impact.

That is the "truth". Sorry it might be hard to accept, but studies, statistics and common sense reveal the truth, they don't hide it.

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June 28th, 2011, 12:14 pm
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Post Re: Has anyone seen this show?
Pablo wrote:
First, "if you can find ONE single instance where it is clear supernatural healing took place that you have then proven prayer does something" isn't true. For example, what if that ONE single instance takes place in a Buddhist country with no prayer. And therein lies the problem, you can replicate any instance with prayer with an equally "miraculous" recovery, etc., where no prayer was involved.

And I'm sorry, you are right and obvioulsy understand surveys and statistical analysis better than the experts who conducted this one.

If you don't think these studies produce facts, so be it. I get it, you are invested in the "power of prayer" even though prayer has no power. It isn't just this study and others, it is other statistics and common sense. For example, if prayer really had any power wouldn't believers have either less occurance of disease or higher recovery rates? That would make sense since you are making a link between prayer and an actual result. Correct? But since there is no lowered risk or higher recovery rate then the reverse must be true - prayer has zero impact.

That is the "truth". Sorry it might be hard to accept, but studies, statistics and common sense reveal the truth, they don't hide it.


But you can't because there are not any scientifically documented cases of a miracle you are willing to accept, let alone ones that aren't made claim in other areas without prayer. My statement is true, the problem is proving it. You require evidence that cannot be proven. In the end, that means there isn't enough evidence to CONCLUDE anything...

The study doesn't provide enough data to CONCLUDE anything, just give us more to mull on when making our assessment of a grossly under studied issue. You are clearly overstating the results and know better. It isn't able to conclude anything but help us get more data to make conclusions with.

This study did NOT put in controls for the control grop to ensure it was a control group... which I can't fault them for because how could you? When doing studies regarding medicine, it is required to get your money, to not take any other drugs during that study. It is like saying you did a test on asprine for chronic arthritus patience, called one group the control group but didn't tell them what they could or could not do regarding outside the test drugs and assumed they didn't take any pain killers. It is almost guaranteed that the control group would take medication just like it is almost gauranteed most patiences in the control group received prayer.

Again, why would believers have more or less disease? I pray for non believers who are sick all the time. Why would you assume non believers aren't recieving prayer. I can gaurantee that you and the other non-christians are being bathed in prayer from Christians on thie board. You are making assumptions that are false.

I am not claiming better statistical knowledge than those who ran the study, just that they can't ensure the controls they claim to have been put in place.

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June 28th, 2011, 2:20 pm
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Post Re: Has anyone seen this show?
There is plenty of evidence to show prayer has zero effect. You may want to try to throw in small variables to discredit any studies (or common sense) to cling onto your false notions, but you ignore the data as result.

If God did have any impact, wouldn't the clergy live longer than other folks? How bout prayer in general, in countries like China and India it is very important to have sons instead of daughters. Families spend a lot of time praying for a boy. The results, 106 males born to every 100 females which amazingly is the exact same statistic as every other country. I could go on and on, but you will again continue to ignore the data.

steensn wrote:
Again, why would believers have more or less disease? I pray for non believers who are sick all the time. Why would you assume non believers aren't recieving prayer. I can gaurantee that you and the other non-christians are being bathed in prayer from Christians on thie board. You are making assumptions that are false.


Sorry, but your assumptions are false. You are basically stating this from a theist based society view but there are many different diverse societies out there that lack a "theistic" view and the stats still hold true. They have no connection to a "believer" in a personal God and thus no prayer, still the statistics hold remarkably true. And those statistics can only lead to one conclusion, prayer has ZERO impact.

If prayer had any impact, you don't think it would be well documented? Think of all of you trying to spread the word of the Gospel, boy that would be a nice selling point wouldn't it. Imagine all of us non-believers, we would have no choice but to see the impact of prayer on life and convert. The church would eat this up, along with ANY evidence but NONE exist, physical or statistical.

So how do they keep y'all believing? Well you just try to PROVE Leprechaun's don't exist! And if you can't (and how could you prove it), then you must rely on your faith because no facts can prove otherwise. Doesn't matter that no physical evidence exist. Doesn't matter if no photography or any sorts of recording exist. Doesn't matter if no pot of gold has ever been found at the end of a rainbow. Heck, believe it strongly enough and you will "see" evidence, I mean have you ever eaten a box of Lucky Charms? Proof positive!

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June 28th, 2011, 2:52 pm
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Post Re: Has anyone seen this show?
Pablo wrote:
There is plenty of evidence to show prayer has zero effect. You may want to try to throw in small variables to discredit any studies (or common sense) to cling onto your false notions, but you ignore the data as result.

If God did have any impact, wouldn't the clergy live longer than other folks? How bout prayer in general, in countries like China and India it is very important to have sons instead of daughters. Families spend a lot of time praying for a boy. The results, 106 males born to every 100 females which amazingly is the exact same statistic as every other country. I could go on and on, but you will again continue to ignore the data.


Completely incorrect. You are now saying all prayer is the same, lumping all religious prayer together. That takes away from the meaning of the whole thing. This statement and notion is completely crap. Christian prayer is not the same as Buddist or Hindu prayer, and visa-versa. Terrible example...

Why do clergy not live longer? Are they praying to live longer? Are only clergy being prayed for? You are missing some key pieces of the puzzle to post that statement to infer a claim.

Pablo wrote:
Sorry, but your assumptions are false. You are basically stating this from a theist based society view but there are many different diverse societies out there that lack a "theistic" view and the stats still hold true. They have no connection to a "believer" in a personal God and thus no prayer, still the statistics hold remarkably true. And those statistics can only lead to one conclusion, prayer has ZERO impact.


Totally and utterly incorrect Pablo, you know better. This study was conducted in a thiest based society meaning the test results cannot make the assumption the control group was actually a control group. So just stating that Christian groups in one country have the same rate of disease and death as non-Christians is nonsense.

You have not posted on dang thing regarding what you posted above, you've simply posted a study done in a thiest society where prayer is a GIVEN. But even if your assertions are correct that statistically speaking they are the same... the question is then begged... why? Is there only one conclusion to be drawn from that data? Clearly no if one wants to be intellectually honest. This is not a vacuum of closed loop. There is MORE different between each country than just prayer. To state it is statistically obvious means that things like accessto drugs, money, clean living, etc. is not important. You can't call "all things being equal" because you control it to that point to make statistics work.

Pablo wrote:
If prayer had any impact, you don't think it would be well documented? Think of all of you trying to spread the word of the Gospel, boy that would be a nice selling point wouldn't it. Imagine all of us non-believers, we would have no choice but to see the impact of prayer on life and convert. The church would eat this up, along with ANY evidence but NONE exist, physical or statistical.


Again, there is book after book telling of the impact on prayer. You aren't talking documentation, you are talking about scientific proof. Problem is, you can't tell me what the proof even looks like. Why?

1) Because if I go "X person had Y and it just went away, the doctors are stunned, our prayers have been answered!" You resonce is: "Well how do you know, you are just using God to fill in why something happened! That isn't evidence!"

2) If I go "X person had Y and we prayed that it would be healed and it was! Look, here is what happened, here is what happened in their body!" Your responce is: "Well look, you've just explained it, why do you need God!?"

You are not going to take anything we give you as proof because you are going to explain it away like you have already. I cannot provide you with proof and evidence because you won't accept any form of evidence because you can "explain it away." You are going to smirk at this, but it's the truth and you know it. You want data that simply doesn't and cannot exist. You are going to require proof that God exist before you are going to be willing to accept proof he exist even exist. You have made up your mind...

Pablo wrote:
So how do they keep y'all believing? Well you just try to PROVE Leprechaun's don't exist! And if you can't (and how could you prove it), then you must rely on your faith because no facts can prove otherwise. Doesn't matter that no physical evidence exist. Doesn't matter if no photography or any sorts of recording exist. Doesn't matter if no pot of gold has ever been found at the end of a rainbow. Heck, believe it strongly enough and you will "see" evidence, I mean have you ever eaten a box of Lucky Charms? Proof positive!


How? Because just like you... when faced with the facts I go to what I feel is true. You FEEL that God doesn't exist, so you make up BS and terrible logic to make yourself feel better about it. When a study that is interesting yet not conclusive comes by you grasp to it as the tell all of everything. When someone brings up evidence to the contrary you write it off based on your feelings on the matter.

Your objection about us is a clear reflection of you yourself.

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June 28th, 2011, 4:26 pm
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Post Re: Has anyone seen this show?
Point one, I was trying to expand to all forms of prayer since my claim is prayer doesn't work - I wasn't trying to pin it down to just a Christian God. If any of them had any validity, meaning they worked from an obvious statistical basis, pretty much everyone would gravitate towards that faith. Since none of them work there is a myriad of man made myths in our belief systems which has always been the case.

Point two, given your look at this you can dismiss any study ever done. Is any study 100% perfect - hard to say since humans are by nature imperfect with many influences on their lives. But I do believe in this test, with 3 distint groups, the folks conducting the test did as good of a job as they could eliminating test bias. Again, you can try to dismiss all statistics due to variables if you like but this was the most comprehensive test ever done on prayer - I challenge you to do better.

Point three, if individually there is impact of prayer then their must be some statistically significant sign of that yet none exist. Therefore I can easily dismiss each of the individual cases from afar. I'm not looking at individual proof, who has time for that, and as I have said you can find an equally "miraculous" cure from other belief and non-belief systems.

Point four, even if "I feel" Leprechaun's are true that doesn't mean they exist. I don't "feel" God doesn't exist just as I don't "feel" Leprechauns, Unicorns, or Minotaurs do. It has nothing to do with feeling, it has to do with lack of any trace element of proof whatsoever. There is a huge difference there. When someone brings up evidence on the contrary, my feelings have nothing to do with it - I simply analyze and point out other possibilities (something you require when speaking of OSU or Tressel for some reason but not here) - how does that relate to feelings?

My objection about it is a clear reflection of lack of any proof, not of myself other than the fact that I require proof and I'm not about to apologize for that! I mean, in your world God made me that way anyway and knew that is how I woudl think at this piont in my life, so in essence isn't my objection a clear reflection of God?

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June 28th, 2011, 5:25 pm
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Post Re: Has anyone seen this show?
Pablo wrote:
Point one, I was trying to expand to all forms of prayer since my claim is prayer doesn't work - I wasn't trying to pin it down to just a Christian God. If any of them had any validity, meaning they worked from an obvious statistical basis, pretty much everyone would gravitate towards that faith. Since none of them work there is a myriad of man made myths in our belief systems which has always been the case.


Just because all of them do not work doesn't mean non of them work.

Pablo wrote:
Point two, given your look at this you can dismiss any study ever done. Is any study 100% perfect - hard to say since humans are by nature imperfect with many influences on their lives. But I do believe in this test, with 3 distint groups, the folks conducting the test did as good of a job as they could eliminating test bias. Again, you can try to dismiss all statistics due to variables if you like but this was the most comprehensive test ever done on prayer - I challenge you to do better.


It is the best study done to date, I acknowledge it. It gives us something to start from and work to get enough data to maybe one day have something better than a "hmmm" study. I'm not disregarding the findings, but I also have to point out that the findings are also not reliable to somehow shape or change ones view either way. You take that as being dismissive, but it isn't... it's being realistic and taking things into context. I applaud their efforts, I wish for different results, but if we didn't have scores of more detailed claims out there this would stand out much more than it does. It's GOOD data, but not conclusive or mind blowing either. It is certainly not persuasive. Not every piece of data (best available or not) has to shape or change your opinion. Sometimes somethine just hasn't had enough studies done or there isn't a good enough science to study it properly.

Pablo wrote:
Point three, if individually there is impact of prayer then their must be some statistically significant sign of that yet none exist. Therefore I can easily dismiss each of the individual cases from afar.


There should be, but the problem is we cannot collect clera enough data that is feasibly able to pull a statistical feature out of it. I do a LOT of data analysis and statistics, I'm not expert like some, but I know a significant more than the basics. There are simply WAY too many things creating noise and to take into consideration for a simple study to be clear. We do a lot of vibration analysis and statistics on that data to determine faults. We take known faults and data from those known faults and try to extract that fault feature from the data. Even in that system , with much less variables, when we KNOW the fault is there, statistics are still terribly inaccurate when pulling out features. I'm not trying to muddy the waters, but comparitevly, what you are asking for is significantly harder than what we very good engineers struggle with everyday.

You have to be realistic at some point...

Pablo wrote:
I'm not looking at individual proof, who has time for that, and as I have said you can find an equally "miraculous" cure from other belief and non-belief systems.


You can ALWAYS come up with alternative beliefs or explinations as I explained above. It's a lose lose situation. You WANT something you are not even willing to accept how it MUST come to you as. You can't ask for something then refuse it in the same breath.


Pablo wrote:
Point four, even if "I feel" Leprechaun's are true that doesn't mean they exist. I don't "feel" God doesn't exist just as I don't "feel" Leprechauns, Unicorns, or Minotaurs do. It has nothing to do with feeling, it has to do with lack of any trace element of proof whatsoever. There is a huge difference there. When someone brings up evidence on the contrary, my feelings have nothing to do with it - I simply analyze and point out other possibilities (something you require when speaking of OSU or Tressel for some reason but not here) - how does that relate to feelings?


That is totally untrue. Because when faced with the start of the discussion you start from the viewpoint you choose to start with, not a blank slate. Your base operating standpoint is that prayer does nothing and every piece of evidence get's filtered through that. You won't accept any individual cases because you vcan clame a reason why or say no explination doesn't support God. You CHOOSE to operate from that standpoint and everything goe through that filter.

You have feelings that it is untrue, it shapes how you see the data. I'm not saying that is bad or good, mine is as well. But I'm being honest about it, you are taking some BS "I'm unbiased" standpoint here and creating bad logic to support it.

Pablo wrote:
My objection about it is a clear reflection of lack of any proof, not of myself other than the fact that I require proof and I'm not about to apologize for that! I mean, in your world God made me that way anyway and knew that is how I woudl think at this piont in my life, so in essence isn't my objection a clear reflection of God?


When you require proof that you will not accept you are already ruining what you have to say on the subject.

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June 28th, 2011, 6:16 pm
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Post Re: Has anyone seen this show?
Point one - agreed actually.

Point two - now we are making progress, thank you. In itself I don't find it conclusive, in fact that is pretty much how I look at any of the findings as they relate to the side I've come to now, but in total they are very conclusive to me (and I realize that doesn't mean they would be to you).

Point three - decent points, however, I do think you can go back and look at lots of data to draw conclusions from. You don't need a specific study, you can look at general information (health stats, population stats, religious stats) and draw some interesting findings. Singularly they might not be conclusive, but if you look at the sum totals I think it paints a clear picture.

Point four - there are alternative beliefs, my concern is that when you are so set in one you limit other alternatives (and I'm not saying I'm always eliminating all alternatives either given my current biases).

Point five - I never started out assuming prayer would have no effect, in fact quite the opposite. I know that might not make sense, but IMO even if there is no God I felt the mind could be "tricked" by prayer (or think of it as the power of the mind). So assumption of my starting standpoint was wrong, given my lack of belief, but I can see why you would assume that. I was biased when I first started looking, just not how you expected, but my mind was changed based on the results.

Point six - I'm happy to accept proof if it exist. I once believed, I'm happy to do so again should evidence support it.

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June 28th, 2011, 6:44 pm
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Post Re: Has anyone seen this show?
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Point six - I'm happy to accept proof if it exist. I once believed, I'm happy to do so again should evidence support it.


But you go through every day believing in all kinds of things you can't prove. Why the hangup here? Why is absolute proof needed to believe this when it isn't required in your day to day life?

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June 28th, 2011, 6:47 pm
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Post Re: Has anyone seen this show?
Pablo wrote:
Point two - now we are making progress, thank you. In itself I don't find it conclusive, in fact that is pretty much how I look at any of the findings as they relate to the side I've come to now, but in total they are very conclusive to me (and I realize that doesn't mean they would be to you).


I had already acknowledged it Pablo as a good study... but when I say it is inconclusive and you make statements that these studies provide facts, they don't, they provide evidence.

Pablo wrote:
Point three - decent points, however, I do think you can go back and look at lots of data to draw conclusions from. You don't need a specific study, you can look at general information (health stats, population stats, religious stats) and draw some interesting findings. Singularly they might not be conclusive, but if you look at the sum totals I think it paints a clear picture.


The point is that it hasn't been done and the data is not clear. The data is not clear enough to pull even several studies together to draw a conclusion because no study is looking at good enough data to really get to that level. Volume doesn't always make up for quality. In this case the quality is only so good because of logistics and cannot be relied upon. Though they give us a window and some evidence, even in many multiples they don't give us enough of a clera picture to draw conclusions.

Pablo wrote:
Point five - I never started out assuming prayer would have no effect, in fact quite the opposite. I know that might not make sense, but IMO even if there is no God I felt the mind could be "tricked" by prayer (or think of it as the power of the mind). So assumption of my starting standpoint was wrong, given my lack of belief, but I can see why you would assume that. I was biased when I first started looking, just not how you expected, but my mind was changed based on the results.


If we isolate prayer away from your self proclaimed study of the existence of God, these studies specifically on prayer didn't exist for you to base your results on. You discredited the existence of God, THEN found these studies to support an idea that prayer didn't work (as long as the timeline of what oyu have told us is correct). Therefore, any of this stuff that came later is looked through a biased eye, just like any evidence regarding evolution (for or against) is put in perspective of evolution being true. We date rocks based on what type of fossils we found in it because we are so convinced.

I think it is clear you are so convinced that you are not actually as unbiased as you think you are and it shows.

Pablo wrote:
Point six - I'm happy to accept proof if it exist. I once believed, I'm happy to do so again should evidence support it.


I disgaree... there is zero evidence I can provide just on prayer that you will accept. Your belief in prayer hinges competely on your belief in God. You won't change your mind on prayer until you change your mind on God... until then you will find reasons to discredit any individual amount of evidence as being "your using God as a filler" or "medicince can explain how that happened so I don't need to know why." Any evidence I bring will be put in one of these two catagories, which means in reality you are NOT open to accepting proof.

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June 28th, 2011, 7:02 pm
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