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 Call Off the Global Drug War 
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Def. Coordinator – Teryl Austin
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Post Re: Call Off the Global Drug War
while I agree COMPLETLY with you steensn, MOST addicts dont think the way we do. Too large of a portion will hear the disease part and hear all the bells and whistles go off about how it's not their fault.

I know yer not a South Park fan, but they actually had an episode of this very subject. while it was mostly meant in fun, that show has a very blunt look at the realities of life sometimes and thats exactly what the focus was on in that episode.

I find that when it comes to our weakness being exposed...and addiction is defiantly a weakness...I find that whenever people have an excuse to hide behind, they hide. They dont confront the problem head on in most cases.

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July 13th, 2011, 3:17 pm
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Post Re: Call Off the Global Drug War
It's a lose lose... if we don't treat it as a disease they won't be able to overcome it. If our culture gives a free ride to those who "just couldn't help themselves" we take away their hope of overcoming it. "We" are just as much to blame as them...

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July 13th, 2011, 4:11 pm
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Post Re: Call Off the Global Drug War
you wanna talk about slippery slopes?? Dont go taking responsabilities for others weaknesses partner! thats called enabeling!

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July 13th, 2011, 4:27 pm
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Post Re: Call Off the Global Drug War
steensn wrote:
It's a lose lose... if we don't treat it as a disease they won't be able to overcome it. If our culture gives a free ride to those who "just couldn't help themselves" we take away their hope of overcoming it. "We" are just as much to blame as them...


How is it a free ride? Its called personal responsibility. If they don't want to end their addiction, they can deal with the consequences. Making it a disease only benefits those that make money off others addictions. Any and all hope of overcoming addictions lies within themselves, no one else. The only culture that wants to give them a free ride is the same one that says we have to take care of everyone. The same ones who now are calling for obese kids to be taken away from their parents...


July 13th, 2011, 4:44 pm
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Post Re: Call Off the Global Drug War
njoar, it is only a free ride because you have defined disease as something that gives someone a free ride. That is the issue about calling it what it is... you don't want to call it a disease because society then gives them a free pass because they couldn't "help their disease." Point is that it is both a disease and their responsibility. They need help, but they need to own it as well.

We can bury our heads on this be realistic and our society man up.

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July 13th, 2011, 4:50 pm
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Post Re: Call Off the Global Drug War
Society doesn't have to do anything. That's the problem. Expecting society to solve personal problems is the exact opposite of what this country was founded on. Society isn't a cure for the individual. The individual is the cure for Society. If someone doesn't want to help themselves, no one is responsible for them by themselves. Its not burying our heads, its refusing to spend and spend because someone was too lazy to do it for free. By legitimizing these things as diseases, it falls under health care and then all of us have to pick up the tab for it. Enough is enough.

Addictions should fall in the same category as student loans. Every time they go into a facility, they get a tab for how much it costs to teach them to live without it, and then they pay it all back.


July 13th, 2011, 5:01 pm
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Post Re: Call Off the Global Drug War
steensn wrote:
It's a lose lose... if we don't treat it as a disease they won't be able to overcome it. If our culture gives a free ride to those who "just couldn't help themselves" we take away their hope of overcoming it. "We" are just as much to blame as them...


The bolded line is a a bunch of BS. PLENTY of people in the past have had addictions, and been able to fight off those addictions without the aid of modern medicine OR having society treat it as a disease.

"WE" are NOT to blame for other people not being able to resist their temptations. Are YOU to blame for those who can't resist cheating on their wives, or who can't resist sexually assaulting children? This is the danger; by calling the inability to resist temptation a "disease" it opens up the possibility of calling sexual predators "diseased" rather than "criminals" and gives them an out in the court system. Men and women who habitually cheat on their spouses would claim "I have a disease" and try to use that as their excuse. The possibilities are almost endless.

Addicts need one thing, and one thing only.....a complete absence of that which is the root of their addiction. And the fact is, regardless of the use of modern medicine and psychiatric/psychological techniques, the only person who can stop an addict is the addict.

That doesn't sound ANYTHING like a disease to me.

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July 13th, 2011, 5:19 pm
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Post Re: Call Off the Global Drug War
Sorry, I cannot divorce the fact that Cain's response was "Am I my brothers keeper?" and God calls us to think differently:

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"30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[a] 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] There is no commandment greater than these.” Mark 12:30-31

"There is a saying, 'Love your friends and hate your enemies.' But I say: Love your enemies! Pray for those who persecute you! In that way you will be acting as true sons of your Father in heaven. For he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust too. If you love only those who love you, what good is that? Even scoundrels do that much. If you are friendly only to your friends, how are you different from anyone else? Even the heathen do that. But you are to be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect." Matthew 5:43-48

"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. "And all the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 'For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.' "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You drink? 'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 'And when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' "And the King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.' "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.' "Then they themselves also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?' "Then He will answer them, saying, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 25:31-46

"So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets." Matthew 7:12

"Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ" Galatians 6:2

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When the pharisee's asked "who is my neighbor?" they were looking for a reason to find people NOT to love or help. I don't want to be like that and I think we would all be a lot better off if we thought differently as well. I may not have to "pay" for the sins someone else commits and may not be "responsible" for their action... but the idea of going beyond oneself to focus on others IMO is key for a thriving society. When we start acting as if compassion is enabling then we loss people. When we don;t realize everyone is NOT the same, we are going to miss out of real life.

I can't follow the line of thinking that doesn't hold the society responsible for enabling or not helping through gov't or free will giving/help

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July 13th, 2011, 6:02 pm
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Post Re: Call Off the Global Drug War
Loving thy neighbor as you do you yourself has nothing to do with this steensn. That's a blatant use out of context. Not one place in the Bible does it say anything close to "join together and bail someone else out of their personal trouble. And by giving them unlimited funds to their problems THAT's enabling them. And there's a big difference between you helping out of free will, which is your choice to do so, and the government stepping in and "helping" by making everyone else foot the bill. Loving my neighbor doesn't include doing everything for him.

Just look at Salvation. God didn't setup a system where the society's good works get everyone salvation, its the individuals choice to come to him. Looking at the society solution goes against scripture. Its a personal responsibility to help yourself. God wants people to look to him for their problems, not government.


July 13th, 2011, 6:23 pm
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Post Re: Call Off the Global Drug War
njroar wrote:
Loving thy neighbor as you do you yourself has nothing to do with this steensn. That's a blatant use out of context. Not one place in the Bible does it say anything close to "join together and bail someone else out of their personal trouble. And by giving them unlimited funds to their problems THAT's enabling them. And there's a big difference between you helping out of free will, which is your choice to do so, and the government stepping in and "helping" by making everyone else foot the bill. Loving my neighbor doesn't include doing everything for him.

Just look at Salvation. God didn't setup a system where the society's good works get everyone salvation, its the individuals choice to come to him. Looking at the society solution goes against scripture. Its a personal responsibility to help yourself. God wants people to look to him for their problems, not government.


Your right, he didn't take someone else good works to get someone else into heaven... HE did the work and bore the pain and suffering so we don't have to if we choose so. He couldn't have made a clearer model for it for us.

What are talking about unlimited funds and this other nonsense... this goes exactly to the point I made to Wags about people creating to false sides and pinning people to that. I think are as well extrapolating what I said, but only half of it, to somehow say this is about gov't. I'm just saying we need to treat it as what it may be for that person, a disease (not everyone, just those who have the issue), offer those willing to accept the help a place to come in and get the treatment they need to get better. It is taking the responsibility on the person, but offering assistance out for those willing to take it.

I don't care if it is from free will offerings and assistance or a properly run gov't system using private facilities. But it is clear that God wants us to go past ourselves and help others. I could 10x the list below... it seems to be that God/Jesus is overly concerned about us caring for others more than ourselves... just not more than him.

If we truly cared for others our gov't wouldn't have to...

------------

"Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others." Philippians 2:4

"Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God" Hebrews 13:16

"Give, and it will be given to you. Good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For with the measure you use it will be measured back to you." Luke 6:38

"35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me. 41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:35-46

"Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ." Galatians 6:2

“This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you." John 15:12

'And the crowds asked him, “What then shall we do?” And he answered them, “Whoever has two tunics is to share with him who has none, and whoever has food is to do likewise.” Luke 3:10-11

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July 13th, 2011, 7:55 pm
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Post Re: Call Off the Global Drug War
How old are you Steensn? Churches used to be involved. Government took over those programs thinking they could do better and have been cutting religion out of it every chance they can. Its not the failure of people that government stepped in, its the government that saw an opportunity to gain some control. Has poverty gotten better with bigger government? Has addiction gotten better?


July 13th, 2011, 8:08 pm
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Post Re: Call Off the Global Drug War
Nothing is stopping the churches from still being involved.

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July 13th, 2011, 10:07 pm
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Post Re: Call Off the Global Drug War
Steensn, did you ever stop to think that the absolute BEST way to help the addicts is to FORCE them to face the fact that they must overcome this the hard way? Giving them 12 step programs, moving them from one poison (heroine) to another (methodone), classifying addiction as a disease so that doctors can cash in AND give the addicts an opportunity to apply for disability....that's not really helping the addicts or alcoholics kick their habit.

Want to help them? Lock them in a room, let them sweat it out and detox, THEN be there to help guide them from the temptations. But giving them psychological counseling while their still addicted is a waste of time and money. And too often, the psychologists develop excuses for them as to why they are addicts and are NOT AT FAULT.

It's not about refusing to help our fellow man. It's not about saying that they aren't worth our time or money. It's about getting to the heart of the matter and stop with the endless government programs that serve as enablers rather than deterrants.

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July 14th, 2011, 9:35 am
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Post Re: Call Off the Global Drug War
So you are for helping them... you just don't want to call it a disease because of what some people have done with that. Just because our medical community has ruins medicine in some ways doesn't mean we shouldn't still call things what they are. Just because our society reacts to things in such a way that it enables others, doesn't mean we should take adverse reaction to bury the truth.

Locking someone in a room to sweat it out, methadone, etc. are all treatments. You are offering your idea of what treatment is, someone else is offering another. You don't want it called a disease not because you don't believe it is or isn't, but because you are scared of how others with then take advantage of that.

That only hurts both sides...

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July 14th, 2011, 9:43 am
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Post Re: Call Off the Global Drug War
steensn wrote:
So you are for helping them... you just don't want to call it a disease because of what some people have done with that. Just because our medical community has ruins medicine in some ways doesn't mean we shouldn't still call things what they are. Just because our society reacts to things in such a way that it enables others, doesn't mean we should take adverse reaction to bury the truth.

Locking someone in a room to sweat it out, methadone, etc. are all treatments. You are offering your idea of what treatment is, someone else is offering another. You don't want it called a disease not because you don't believe it is or isn't, but because you are scared of how others with then take advantage of that.

That only hurts both sides...


I don't believe alcoholism or addiction is a disease, because it is brought on by choice. Alcoholism and addictions are not, in and of themselves, degenerative. Diseases are degenerative. Moving a person from one poison to another is NOT treatment. Ask any heroine addict and they'll tell you that methadone is just as addicting, if not moreso, than heroine.

Throughout history our medical "experts" have replace one drug for another. Codeine for Opium, Morphine for Codeine, Heroine for Morphine, and now Methadone for Heroine. Throughout history our medical "experts" have promised that the treating drug was not addictive, and would help the addicts toward leading a "normal" life. Is having to go to a clinic to get a drug two or three times a week sound like a normal life to you?

And yes, it does bother me that if the compulsion is classified as a disease that people will take advantage of it. But that's not the basis for my argument, just another point in it. Alcoholism and drug addiction is the result of choice. Making poor choices is NOT a disease, it's just stupidity.

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July 14th, 2011, 10:03 am
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