Call Off the Global Drug War
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Author:  regularjoe12 [ July 14th, 2011, 8:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Call Off the Global Drug War

personlly i find it disgusting that someone here compared being a drunk to having aids.. SERIOUSLY disgusting! You insult every aids sufferer on the planet by doing so.....

Author:  steensn [ July 14th, 2011, 8:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Call Off the Global Drug War

You are really going to go to that lame of a response? Really? I'm gonna have to call you out on this pettiness right here... no one compared being drunk to aids. Don't being that intellectually dishonest... please don;t go that low.

Author:  regularjoe12 [ July 14th, 2011, 9:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Call Off the Global Drug War

um no sir I'm saying your comparison was THAT LAME. you're the one that brought it to the table, you're the one that made the comparison, and its you who really sunk that low...

Author:  steensn [ July 14th, 2011, 10:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Call Off the Global Drug War

I didn't make that comparison. I found the first ridiculous claim I could think of something that was OBVIOUSLY real that others claim isn't because it's "made up by the pharmaceuticals to make money." The point was to CLEARLY show the absurdity of the argument given with an extreme example.

Stop being a turd, you're better than that.

Author:  njroar [ July 14th, 2011, 10:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Call Off the Global Drug War

steensn wrote:
The CDC referenced why they considered it a disease... end of story.

And you are finally getting to the point. I don't care what it may or may not convey to them.. it IS a disease and we should figure out how to react and treat it properly. Your not arguing the fact it is or is not a disease, you are arguing the fact you don't like OUR reaction to that fact. You are misplacing your focus...

Not end of story. They made a clear leap from mental disorder to chronic disease. But again, they listed it only for alcohol. Doesn't apply to drugs or prescription drugs which are actually addicting.

And who do you think has a greater chance of being cured? Someone who thinks that their problem can't be cured and they have to try to avoid it... or someone that knows the cure is themselves and they can be perfectly fine without it?

And arguing your reaction to the fact? There is no fact, so i don't know WTF your talking about. You know how many organizations and associations of doctors out there that are nothing but fund raisers and lobbying firms? The aids one is a legitimate cause, so mixing that in with the AMA and NYU associations that lobby for their changes, is pathetic. Even the CDC's definition of alcoholism.... the reference clearly says MENTAL, yet you're trying to make these false connections to what we've been saying for the entire thread.

And you can NOT treat it properly with medication. The only people that can break addiction are the addicted. Methadone won't cure heroin addiction unless that person actually wants to stop. People can't stop nicotine unless they want to stop. No drugs are going to change the simple FACT that willpower is the only cure for addiction.

Author:  steensn [ July 14th, 2011, 11:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Call Off the Global Drug War

First they have the final say, now we question their decision... where do we go now?

This line of arguments are getting stupid... im done.

Author:  njroar [ July 14th, 2011, 11:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Call Off the Global Drug War

steensn wrote:
First they have the final say, now we question their decision... where do we go now?

This line of arguments are getting stupid... im done.

Who's questioning the decision... read again. The AMA which is calling all addictions a disease, isn't the CDC, which lists alcoholism only as a mental disease. The AMA specifically says that its not a mental disease, but a physical disease. Alcoholism isn't an addiction. It also isn't a physical disease.

Yes, it is getting stupid, because you've been trying to connect dots that aren't there to be connected. The bad definitions, quoting the definition of the CDC but leaving out the reference to the Mental disorder, the Aids organization. Just pulling out of context pieces here and there that try to make a correlation to your view of something that can't be made.

Addictions aren't a disease. Alcoholism isn't an addiction. Can you go get a drink and not need another? Of course. Can you have a cigarette and not need another? No. Have people quit cigarettes and drinking without ever needing a helper or substitute? Yes. Has anyone quit cancer or diabetes without any treatment? No.

Are there exceptions? Yes. But the exceptions do not make the rule. And groups like the AMA and any industry lobbying groups for that matter, try to use the exceptions to rewrite the rule. That's what is happening here.

Author:  steensn [ July 14th, 2011, 11:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Call Off the Global Drug War

The CDC noted it as a disease... end of story. Every major medical source calls it a disease. Try and start making distinctions between "mental" and "physical" now that you are backing up... I don't care. It's a disease, that is all that is the point. No one is trying to say it is the exact same thing as cancer... only you are. Disease is general and covers many DIFFERENT things that manifest and require different treatment.

AT least we are now on the same page that it is a disease...

Author:  njroar [ July 15th, 2011, 12:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Call Off the Global Drug War

From page 1 -

njroar wrote:
Addition is a mental and personality disorder. And unlike those today that think everything is a mental illness and requires drugs instead of dealing with the issue itself, It is not a disease by very definition of the term. Addictions can be broken by will. Diseases can't.

Someone doesn't start smoking or drinking because they have too. They don't suddenly wake up and have to start smoking or drinking either. They make a conscience choice to start, usually because they are looking to fill a need elsewhere. Again, a need is about desire, not sickness.

Having an addictive personality isn't uncommon. The same people who choose to smoke could just as likely choose to get addicted to a video game or some other compulsion. And to prove that its a money sink, the "cure" for this is medication which is also easily able to become another addiction. Its an endless circle.

Know someone who goes to AA meetings? They want you to form a habit of going to meetings and following the steps. Try to shift the addiction from one habit to another.

And when's the last time you caught an addiction from someone else?

As far as mental illness.... This is the real reason that addictions are being classified as diseases. Because of the failure of Doctors and "experts," or possibly just laziness, the study of helping the mind has taken steps backwards and instead of true therapy sessions, they've gone towards drugs to "cure" these problems. They've made generations of kids and now adults dependent on drugs that will help what most of us grew up and learned to deal with. Now many will never learn to grow out of or deal with the minor issues that now have ballooned into larger issues. Then the next generation grows into that and it balloons even bigger. Most of what is considered mental illness today is nothing more than parents being too scared to deal with their kids. And the "experts" have found a way to profit.

I'm not backtracking. I'm exactly where I have been. And you still fail to see that the CDC doesn't call drug addiction a disease. Trying to put the alcohol definition as the same as all addictions is false. Every medical lobbyist calls it a disease, the CDC and every reputable medical dictionary does not. There's a difference.

Author:  m2karateman [ July 15th, 2011, 9:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Call Off the Global Drug War

steensn wrote:
One drink of alcohol can fuel the start of an addiction. Everyone has a choice to do a lot of things that cause disease. Luckily that has never been a requirement for being a disease. You are looking for reasons to not call it a disease because you think it somehow takes away responsibility... I am saying it is only that way if you want to continue this silly notion that a disease removes responsibility. It's BS and it feeds the idiocy of our society.

So now a disease has to be started? It's the continued act of drinking that creates alcoholism. Typically a disease isn't created over time in a human being, it's defined by a single moment of contact, or is congenital. Smoking isn't a disease, but it can cause cancer. Once those cancer cells are given the go ahead, they begin their destruction. But the fact that not JUST smoking can cause cancer is what differs it from alcoholism. ONLY drinking alcohol, and only over a period of time, does alcoholism get created.

And calling it a disease DOES take away responsibility, and I can show you how. Remember major league pitcher Steve Howe? He was the first person I heard call addiction a disease. He was busted nine time...NINE TIMES...for using cocaine. He and his wife, at a press conference, smugly sat there and said "it's not my fault, I have a disease". He sued MLB to get re-instated based on that. They let him back, and once again he got busted for nose candy. He used addiction is a disease as an excuse for his lack of responsibility. I could care less what the AMA or the CDC says. They are in bed together, and whether you want to accept it or not, people become doctors in large part due to the money they can make. Do they save lives? Yes. Do they help extend the average lifespan? Yes. Are they extremely well paid for their efforts? Yes. Show me a lower to middle class doctor in the United States today, and I'll show you someone who has either been found guilty of malpractice, or doesn't have a license.

You can call addiction and alcoholism diseases all day long, I could care less. Those compulsions, in and of themselves, don't destroy human tissue or inhibit normal functions of organs. You want to call them mental diseases, be my guest. But modern psychiatry wants as many compulsions and idiosyncracies called a mental disease for the same reason the AMA does...money. And defense lawyers are in bed with them on that as well. Insanity pleas have steadily increased over the years as new mental "diseases" are created.

In the meantime, talk to some families who AREN'T related to the alcoholics or addicts, but have been impacted by their "disease" and see what their views are. Talk to the guy who had his wife and two sons killed when an alcoholic killed them in a car wreck, then blamed the disease to plea down. Talk to any victim of an addict who robs them then beats them because the victim doesn't have enough money on them, then plea down in court because they have a "disease". Responsibility? Not theirs. Don't you know steensn, it's the responsibility of society....the bartender who served them, the pusher who sold drugs to them, their parents for not loving them enough, their childhood bullies who made them insecure, their friends who pressured them into drinking or using......it's never the responsibility of the drinker/user.

Author:  steensn [ July 15th, 2011, 9:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Call Off the Global Drug War

njroar... here is the issue... mental disorders ARE a subset of disease:

"There are currently two widely established systems that classify mental disorders—ICD-10 Chapter V: Mental and behavioural disorders, part of the International Classification of Diseases produced by the World Health Organization (WHO), and the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-IV) produced by the American Psychiatric Association (APA)."

Both consider it a disease and EVERY OTHER medical community agrees with it. You are trying to say mental disorders are not diseases... they are. That is your goof here. You are trying to hard to separate the two. Mental disorders can be caused by PHYSICAL, mental, or a combination of both.

The CDC AGREES with the two organizations and quotes one of them saying it IS a disease. Not just any disease, a chronic one. You are trying to make a distinction of "diseases cant be cured with willpower" but no medical professional agrees, at least not the main bodies in charge.

Author:  steensn [ July 15th, 2011, 9:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Call Off the Global Drug War

m3k i don't care is someone then uses it as an accuse. Let's attack that thinking instead of agreeing with it and not realizing the truth.

You guys just want to argue to force responsibility instead of just forcing responsibility. Part of the treatment IS taking responsibility...

Author:  m2karateman [ July 15th, 2011, 10:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Call Off the Global Drug War

You have your opinions, I have mine. As for the medical community and health organizations...they all stand to benefit from proclaiming these diseases. Therefore, I take what they say with a grain of salt.

I'm done discussing this.

Author:  steensn [ July 15th, 2011, 10:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Call Off the Global Drug War

We should boycott our medicine... since they don't know what they are talking about...

Author:  regularjoe12 [ July 15th, 2011, 4:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Call Off the Global Drug War

i've been done since the absurtidy of aids was thrown in, but, I would like to share a conversation I had last night with ya'll as it pertained to this conversation. I currently have a house guest from Alaska. He was one of "those kids" who made all the wrong choices, rebelled for all the wrong reasons, and got himself addicted to several substances.

Long story short something he said to me when he was put up in a clinic (as apposed to jail time) is that they used the excuse of disease in his clinic. what he said that stuck with me was this: " out of the 20 or so addicts in my wing there were 3 of us that refused to call it any kind of disease, and according to his couselor (who he still has is in contact with 10 years later) those three are are the only ones there at that time who kicked their habit and never returned. all 17 of the other "diseased" addicts returned.

You want to kick addiction? the moral of this story is you only do it by taking 100 percent accountability. Being diseased is an excuse. Take this story for what it's worth but my buddy swears it to be 100% true (and I have yet to know him to lie to me).

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