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 Christian Faith Requires Accepting Evolution 
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Post Re: Christian Faith Requires Accepting Evolution
BillySims wrote:
IMHO, impossible for everything to come from nothing.


And where did God come from again?

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June 24th, 2011, 9:38 am
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Post Re: Christian Faith Requires Accepting Evolution
Pablo wrote:
BillySims wrote:
IMHO, impossible for everything to come from nothing.


And where did God come from again?


First off, evolution has NOTHING to do with "coming from nothing" that is a seperate thing called a-biogenisis. Secondly, Pablo, he would be making that claim based on scientific laws that scientist identified for our universe.

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June 24th, 2011, 9:44 am
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Post Re: Christian Faith Requires Accepting Evolution
njroar wrote:
A few individual skeletons don't mean that all skulls were a particular size. You could find smaller skulls today. We're all different now, so why would all skulls be the same size back then? That's just trying to draw a conclusion to support a belief based on assumptions. Its not a fact.

Mathematics isn't science. Its required in science, but its a knowledge of its own.

The age of the earth has been and will be disputed forever. As long as there are variables such as salt water that would throw off the data of age testing rock, there are possibilities (flood) that can draw theories into question. It makes it an belief that is almost impossible to prove. Personally, I think the earth is a lot older than most believers believe. I believe there was a gap between verse 1 and 2 since the original translation is actually recreated. That would allow for a period where Dinosaurs would roam without interference from man or other animals. The possibility of a war between angels and fallen angels, but no mention of that when creation happened? Lucifer obviously got into the garden, but he was already here. There lies the theory of the earth being millions of years old yet creation still being a possibility.

Aviation, aerodynamics, astral physics... evolution of the mind. Its not the same as evolution of a species.

Again, the issue isn't about whether evolution exists, but does it exist on the scale that the popular view of evolution is. You might say that evolutionists don't believe we came from apes, but whenever the debate comes up, that's what they talk about to try to make those not believing that as crazy.

Nothing that they say is possible or that they have "evidence" of is anything more than circumstantial evidence. You couldn't win a court case with it, let alone a debate. It's a trick question. They bring it up only to try to discredit, not to prove anything. The only proof they're trying to put out there, is that you're wrong to disagree with them. Disagreement is what gets the brain to evolve. If you just believe everything you see or hear and draw conclusions, you're failing to evolve. Ironic.



Alright NJ, help me out here as I dont know where yer at with this.

First off the math, aerodynamics stuff was just to point out to Billy that therer are lots of things not specifically mentioned in the bible that are great things to learn. nothing more so Ill leave that part of yer post out.

What confuses me is your stance on the other stuff. Im a little confused. You kinda sound like Steensn In OSU debate . Yes we found skulls that were odd shaped but not enough to confirm that everyone looked like that so we should dismiss them from the argument? add in that there may be others with normal sized skulls (even though we never found those yet) so we REALLY should dismiss em? I dont get it....

You ARE correct in saying that the evidence doesn't support enough to call it a law. I agree completely thats why they call it Theory. But to call it ALL circumstantial is really dismisssing a ton of things that you can touch, feel, and measure. just cuz they don't tie together in a nice neat bow, and havnt been proven as total fact (and it never will be) does not mean that it should all be dismissed. So Ill ask you here like I asked Steensn in that thread. How much eveidence (circumstantial or otherwise) does there have to be before it just becomes common sense?

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June 24th, 2011, 10:09 am
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Post Re: Christian Faith Requires Accepting Evolution
steensn wrote:
Pablo wrote:
BillySims wrote:
IMHO, impossible for everything to come from nothing.


And where did God come from again?


First off, evolution has NOTHING to do with "coming from nothing" that is a seperate thing called a-biogenisis. Secondly, Pablo, he would be making that claim based on scientific laws that scientist identified for our universe.


Funny, I asked a simple question and your answer had nothing to do with it. Please answer where did God come from?

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June 24th, 2011, 10:15 am
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Post Re: Christian Faith Requires Accepting Evolution
John 1:1, "IN THE BEGINNING, the WORD was with God, and the WORD was God.

Keep in mind, TIME is a creation of man. God exists outside the bounds of time. The closest thing we have to time and God is, "A day to God is of a thousand years." This is where some argue the 6 thousand year theory on the creation of earth. I can't speak to that, because I don't know.

But, prior to the beginning of mankind (Genesis 1;26-27) there was the existence of Heaven, and all things were created. Angels and such, with Lucifer being the chief creation, until evil found in him, and then there was a war in heaven between lucifer, now satan and the 1/3 that he convinced to come with him. They were cast down to earth, and because they being created could not affect God, who else could they attack but those who bore the image of God but man.

The time frame for all of this is prior to earth, because Earth did not exist till Gensis. So that could have been eons or milineums, who knows but God. But from Earth forward, we have time because we live by the seasons and graduates thereof.

Hope that helps.

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June 24th, 2011, 10:50 am
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Post Re: Christian Faith Requires Accepting Evolution
WarEr4Christ wrote:
John 1:1, "IN THE BEGINNING, the WORD was with God, and the WORD was God.

Keep in mind, TIME is a creation of man. God exists outside the bounds of time. The closest thing we have to time and God is, "A day to God is of a thousand years." This is where some argue the 6 thousand year theory on the creation of earth. I can't speak to that, because I don't know.

But, prior to the beginning of mankind (Genesis 1;26-27) there was the existence of Heaven, and all things were created. Angels and such, with Lucifer being the chief creation, until evil found in him, and then there was a war in heaven between lucifer, now satan and the 1/3 that he convinced to come with him. They were cast down to earth, and because they being created could not affect God, who else could they attack but those who bore the image of God but man.

The time frame for all of this is prior to earth, because Earth did not exist till Gensis. So that could have been eons or milineums, who knows but God. But from Earth forward, we have time because we live by the seasons and graduates thereof.

Hope that helps.


Nope, I have the same question we started with.

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June 24th, 2011, 10:52 am
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Post Re: Christian Faith Requires Accepting Evolution
Pablo wrote:
steensn wrote:
Pablo wrote:
BillySims wrote:
IMHO, impossible for everything to come from nothing.


And where did God come from again?


First off, evolution has NOTHING to do with "coming from nothing" that is a seperate thing called a-biogenisis. Secondly, Pablo, he would be making that claim based on scientific laws that scientist identified for our universe.


Funny, I asked a simple question and your answer had nothing to do with it. Please answer where did God come from?


You know the answer, he always was.

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June 24th, 2011, 11:10 am
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Post Re: Christian Faith Requires Accepting Evolution
Again:

God always was, and is. You are coming at it from the aspect that God is created since mankind has been created, so you are trying to back date.

that is like saying well who created the United States? The land has always been here from creation to present. But it was the creation of a country by like minded people that created the country. So there was a time BEFORE, and then a time AFTER.

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June 24th, 2011, 11:14 am
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Post Re: Christian Faith Requires Accepting Evolution
Pablo wrote:
BillySims wrote:
IMHO, impossible for everything to come from nothing.


And where did God come from again?


Well, let me ask you, where did the universe come from? We are told, by the most recent scientific theories, that the universe started when an infinitely dense collection of matter suddenly exploded and continues to expand to this day. Out of the tiniest pinpoint of matter that was so dense the human brain cannot possibly comprehend just how heavy the mass of this tiniest of object was, our entire scope of the world around was born.

Where did that matter come from? What produced it? What caused the explosion?

If one can believe that the origins of that matter are simply unexplained and was just "there", then one can believe that a force greater than that matter chose to create it and have it be the birth of everything and everyone we know.

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June 24th, 2011, 11:37 am
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Post Re: Christian Faith Requires Accepting Evolution
m2karateman wrote:
Pablo wrote:
BillySims wrote:
IMHO, impossible for everything to come from nothing.


And where did God come from again?


Well, let me ask you, where did the universe come from? We are told, by the most recent scientific theories, that the universe started when an infinitely dense collection of matter suddenly exploded and continues to expand to this day. Out of the tiniest pinpoint of matter that was so dense the human brain cannot possibly comprehend just how heavy the mass of this tiniest of object was, our entire scope of the world around was born.

Where did that matter come from? What produced it? What caused the explosion?

If one can believe that the origins of that matter are simply unexplained and was just "there", then one can believe that a force greater than that matter chose to create it and have it be the birth of everything and everyone we know.


That is a huge leap. First, simply because I don't know where the "matter" came from I simply won't claim "it always was" since doing so would cause me to no longer need to answer the question in the first place and in reality, isn't an answer.

Second, trying to compare where matter first came from is much different than trying to figure out the most powerful "being" in the Universe came from, creator of all.

Look at anything in life, do things get more advanced over time or do they start out as advanced as possible and just stay there? Well, evolution teaches us where man came from, simple organazisms that got more complex over time. TV's continue to advance, along with every other form of technology.

You are basically stating that the most advanced form of life/technology/etc. simply existed before everything else - that defies every bit of logic. Apples to organges my friends, and you know where the apples got us!

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June 24th, 2011, 11:47 am
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Post Re: Christian Faith Requires Accepting Evolution
But Pablo, to make the claim you just did you have to then apply the logic bound by this universe and it's rules. Not even you are against the idea of multiple "dimensions" where the rules might even be different. To say that because this get more complex over time (which goes against another scientific law BTW) you are saying the rules of this universe bind any and all possibilities outside of this universe. That is a limitation that has no reason or logic behind it.

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June 24th, 2011, 11:51 am
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Post Re: Christian Faith Requires Accepting Evolution
Pablo wrote:
That is a huge leap. First, simply because I don't know where the "matter" came from I simply won't claim "it always was" since doing so would cause me to no longer need to answer the question in the first place and in reality, isn't an answer.


You asked where God came from? Where did the matter come from? Simple question.....not so simple answer.

Pablo wrote:
Second, trying to compare where matter first came from is much different than trying to figure out the most powerful "being" in the Universe came from, creator of all.


I believe they are one in the same question. You are asking about God's origins. I am asking about what amounts to our origins. If one were to believe you, the "most powerful being in the Universe, creator of all" is Nature, which is the force that created the Big Bang....right?

Pablo wrote:
Look at anything in life, do things get more advanced over time or do they start out as advanced as possible and just stay there? Well, evolution teaches us where man came from, simple organazisms that got more complex over time. TV's continue to advance, along with every other form of technology.


I am not following what this has to do with any of our discussion on God's origins versus the origin of the dense matter that science claims created our universe.

Pablo wrote:
You are basically stating that the most advanced form of life/technology/etc. simply existed before everything else - that defies every bit of logic. Apples to organges my friends, and you know where the apples got us!


Logic and faith are strange bedfellows. Logic applies to the world we know, and only in a percentage of matters, albeit a large percentage. There are still things in this world that go without explanation, and defy logic. Logic is a principal that can be used in many circumstances, but not all. Faith tells you to believe when logic cannot explain the events at hand.

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June 24th, 2011, 12:02 pm
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Post Re: Christian Faith Requires Accepting Evolution
regularjoe12 wrote:
njroar wrote:
A few individual skeletons don't mean that all skulls were a particular size. You could find smaller skulls today. We're all different now, so why would all skulls be the same size back then? That's just trying to draw a conclusion to support a belief based on assumptions. Its not a fact.

Mathematics isn't science. Its required in science, but its a knowledge of its own.

The age of the earth has been and will be disputed forever. As long as there are variables such as salt water that would throw off the data of age testing rock, there are possibilities (flood) that can draw theories into question. It makes it an belief that is almost impossible to prove. Personally, I think the earth is a lot older than most believers believe. I believe there was a gap between verse 1 and 2 since the original translation is actually recreated. That would allow for a period where Dinosaurs would roam without interference from man or other animals. The possibility of a war between angels and fallen angels, but no mention of that when creation happened? Lucifer obviously got into the garden, but he was already here. There lies the theory of the earth being millions of years old yet creation still being a possibility.

Aviation, aerodynamics, astral physics... evolution of the mind. Its not the same as evolution of a species.

Again, the issue isn't about whether evolution exists, but does it exist on the scale that the popular view of evolution is. You might say that evolutionists don't believe we came from apes, but whenever the debate comes up, that's what they talk about to try to make those not believing that as crazy.

Nothing that they say is possible or that they have "evidence" of is anything more than circumstantial evidence. You couldn't win a court case with it, let alone a debate. It's a trick question. They bring it up only to try to discredit, not to prove anything. The only proof they're trying to put out there, is that you're wrong to disagree with them. Disagreement is what gets the brain to evolve. If you just believe everything you see or hear and draw conclusions, you're failing to evolve. Ironic.



Alright NJ, help me out here as I dont know where yer at with this.

First off the math, aerodynamics stuff was just to point out to Billy that therer are lots of things not specifically mentioned in the bible that are great things to learn. nothing more so Ill leave that part of yer post out.

What confuses me is your stance on the other stuff. Im a little confused. You kinda sound like Steensn In OSU debate . Yes we found skulls that were odd shaped but not enough to confirm that everyone looked like that so we should dismiss them from the argument? add in that there may be others with normal sized skulls (even though we never found those yet) so we REALLY should dismiss em? I dont get it....

You ARE correct in saying that the evidence doesn't support enough to call it a law. I agree completely thats why they call it Theory. But to call it ALL circumstantial is really dismisssing a ton of things that you can touch, feel, and measure. just cuz they don't tie together in a nice neat bow, and havnt been proven as total fact (and it never will be) does not mean that it should all be dismissed. So Ill ask you here like I asked Steensn in that thread. How much eveidence (circumstantial or otherwise) does there have to be before it just becomes common sense?


I won't be like Steensn lol. I won't keep hammering. I just state my points, but don't expect anyone else to believe them. I'm not saying we should dismiss anything. Infact, people should keep searching. I just think the skulls are too small a sampling to prove anything. Can they possibly show a link? Yes. Do they absolutely prove it? No.

And that's the definition of circumstantial evidence. It doesn't dismiss it, but even though you can touch, feel and measure something doesn't make it hard evidence. If the evidence alone can't prove something, its circumstantial. If it directly proves something, then its hard evidence and proof. I know calling it circumstantial makes it sound like I'm dismissing it, but I'm just pointing out the only fact in the entire equation, and that its not proven. You can find a hair of someone at a crime scene. Does that make them the guilty party? Nope, just that they were there. A bullet casing with fingerprints is a little harder evidence, but it doesn't close out any and all possibilities. Both are touchable, feelable and measurable, yet they're still circumstantial.

Like you said, its all theory, and so I don't have to except theory in order to believe. Do I accept that its a possibility? Do I believe that its existed instead of the creation? Absolutely not. Evolution is actually more like Steensn, because its jumping to the assumption that its entirely true, based off only a few limited pieces of information that they're connecting the dots. There's a ton more dots that need to be found in order to get the complete picture.

Absolutely nothing in the world requires me to believe anything.


June 24th, 2011, 12:22 pm
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Post Re: Christian Faith Requires Accepting Evolution
Is every T crossed and every i dotted with evolution, no. But to quote my brother who is a Christian that teaches science, "there is more evidence supporting evolution than gravity".

To dismiss evolution, and I'm sorry if anyone takes this wrong, shows how really blind some theists are. You lived in a nice little bubble until 1859 and the "On the Origin of Species" was published. The ignorance is particularly telling in the United States (especially in states like Texas where I live and they try to force Creationism in school - what a joke), no wonder we are falling behing the rest of the world in subjects like math and science.

So how does religion deal with this, there are two schools of thought. First, there are those that still cling onto what was taught in the Bible despite all the historical evidence to the contrary. They are so obviously wrong, that even fellow believers who fall into the second category (those that see that evolution and God can coexist) see as fools.

Evolution alone proves that the Bible cannot be taken literally. It is one of thousands of examples of this, yet the blind cannot be taught to see the most obvious things in this world which continues to baffle me on a daily basis.

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Post Re: Christian Faith Requires Accepting Evolution
Pablo,

There is one issue here that just might be overlooked. The father of evolution was quoted towards the end of his life, as saying that the science did not exist to fully prove if his theories were correct. PLEASE DON'T QUOTE THIS AS GOSPEL, I may have quoted it wrong, but if it is reasonably right, then what does that say to the evolutionists?

Did you see Steins Evolution movie? I haven't so I don't anything about what it said, but I was curious as to your thoughts.

And I might of missed your response to my reply to your comment, especially about the bird in hand. Have a blessed day!

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June 24th, 2011, 12:57 pm
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