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 Christian Faith Requires Accepting Evolution 
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Post Re: Christian Faith Requires Accepting Evolution
I heard this morning that they prooved a few years ago through DNA that mankind originated from one set of parents, and for evolution to be true it would have taken several thousands of each to generate all that we have today. In trying to look for that evidence, I discovered what I posted above, and hope it's intelligent and applies to the conversation.

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June 26th, 2011, 1:46 pm
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Post Re: Christian Faith Requires Accepting Evolution
Still trying to verify the info I heard this morning. Using Google and Wiki, anyone else have any ideas?


Virtually all cells of every living thing (plants, animals, and humans) contain tiny strands of coded information called DNA. DNA directs the cell, telling it what to produce and when. Therefore, much of your appearance and personality is determined by DNA you inherited from your parents.

In human cells, the nucleus contains 99.5% of the DNA. Half of it came from the individual’s mother and half from the father. Because both halves are shuffled together, it is difficult to identify which parent contributed any tiny segment. In other words, half of this DNA changes with each generation. However, outside the nucleus of each cell are thousands of little energy-producing components called mitochondria, each containing a circular strand of DNA. Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) comes only from the mother. Where did she get hers? From her mother—and so on. Normally, mtDNA does not change from generation to generation.

In 1987, a team at the University of California at Berkeley published a study comparing the mtDNA of 147 people from five of the world’s geographic locations.2 They concluded that all 147 had the same female ancestor. She is now called “the mitochondrial Eve.”

From a biblical perspective, do we know where Eve lived? Because the flood was so destructive, no one knows where the Garden of Eden was.4 However, Noah’s three daughters-in-law, who lived only a dozen or so generations after Eve, began raising their families near Mount Ararat in eastern Turkey—very near the common boundary of Asia, Africa, and Europe. (Each of us can claim one of Noah’s daughters-in-law as our ever-so-great grandmother.) So it is not surprising that Asia, Africa, and Europe are candidate homes for mitochondrial Eve.

Likewise, when similar words, sounds, and grammar of the world’s most widely spoken languages are traced back in time, they also seem to originate near Ararat.5 Another convergence near eastern Turkey is found when one traces agriculture back in time.6

When did mitochondrial Eve live? To answer this, one must know how frequently mutations occur in mtDNA. Initial estimates were based on the following faulty reasoning: “Humans and chimpanzees had a common ancestor about 5 million years ago. Because the mtDNA in humans and chimpanzees differ in 1,000 places, one mutation occurs about every 10,000 years.” Another erroneous approach began by assuming that Australia was first populated 40,000 years ago. The average number of mitochondrial mutations among Australian aborigines divided by 40,000 years provided another extremely slow mutation rate for mtDNA. These estimated rates, based on evolution, led to the mistaken belief that mitochondrial Eve lived 100,000–200,000 years ago.8 This surprised evolutionists who believe that our common ancestor was an apelike creature that lived 31/2 million years ago.9

A greater surprise, even disbelief, occurred in 1997, when it was announced that mutations in mtDNA occur 20 times more rapidly than had been estimated. Without assuming that humans and chimpanzees had a common ancestor 5 million years ago or that Australia was populated 40,000 years ago, mutation rates can now be determined directly by comparing the mtDNA of many mother-child pairs. Using the new, more accurate rate, mitochondrial Eve lived only about 6,500 years ago.10
Is there a “genetic Adam”? A man receives from his father a segment of DNA which lies on the Y chromosome; this makes him a male. Where did your father receive his segment? From his father. If we all descended from one man, all males should have the same Y chromosome segment—except for rare mutations.

A 1995 study of a worldwide sample of 38 men showed no changes in this segment of the Y chromosome that is always inherited from fathers. Had humans evolved and all men descended from one male who lived 500,000 years ago, each should carry about 19 mutations. Had he lived 150,000 years ago, 5.5 mutations would be expected.11 Because no changes were found, our common father probably lived only thousands of years ago. While Adam was father of all, our most recent common male ancestor was Noah.



Yes, new discoveries show that we carry traces of Adam and Eve in our cells. Furthermore, our common “parents” are probably removed from us by only 200–300 generations. All humans have a common and recent bond—a family bond. We are all cousins.



Read more: http://www.city-data.com/forum/religion ... z1QPM0AozP

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June 26th, 2011, 2:28 pm
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Post Re: Christian Faith Requires Accepting Evolution
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yO3EVpC5b70

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June 26th, 2011, 2:30 pm
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Post Re: Christian Faith Requires Accepting Evolution
WarEr4Christ wrote:
I heard this morning that they prooved a few years ago through DNA that mankind originated from one set of parents, and for evolution to be true it would have taken several thousands of each to generate all that we have today. In trying to look for that evidence, I discovered what I posted above, and hope it's intelligent and applies to the conversation.


Nope, that's hogwash. No one has ever proven any such thing.

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June 26th, 2011, 3:55 pm
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Post Re: Christian Faith Requires Accepting Evolution
Actually they did prove something to that effect, they called it y-chromosome Adam and mitochondrial Eve. They can show that xxx,xxx years ago there was a single male that we all descended through DNA and the same for a single female. The issue for what WarEr4Christ is saying is that they are separated by tens of thousands of years. Whether you believe in evolution or young earth creation you still have to believe there is a "father" of all and a "mother" of all... just in different terms.

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June 26th, 2011, 5:49 pm
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Post Re: Christian Faith Requires Accepting Evolution
steensn wrote:
Actually they did prove something to that effect, they called it y-chromosome Adam and mitochondrial Eve. They can show that xxx,xxx years ago there was a single male that we all descended through DNA and the same for a single female. The issue for what WarEr4Christ is saying is that they are separated by tens of thousands of years. Whether you believe in evolution or young earth creation you still have to believe there is a "father" of all and a "mother" of all... just in different terms.


Yes, I know about the Adam and Eve DNA. The "hogwash" to which I refer is the notion that "it would have taken several thousands of each to generate all that we have today." The Adam and Eve DNA are in no way contradictory to the notion of evolution.

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June 26th, 2011, 6:46 pm
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Post Re: Christian Faith Requires Accepting Evolution
Blueskies wrote:
Why then are the countries that lead us far more atheistic?


Well, if you have ever studied Israel, you would see that GOD often chastised Israel by using it's enemies overtake them. Since GOD is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow, it would be reasonable to assume that he acts the same way towards any nation that at 1 time was a GOD fearing nation once they go astray. GOD has also been known to use some of the most evil people that have ever lived to put his plans into effect.


June 26th, 2011, 7:02 pm
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Post Re: Christian Faith Requires Accepting Evolution
mwill2 wrote:
steensn wrote:
Actually they did prove something to that effect, they called it y-chromosome Adam and mitochondrial Eve. They can show that xxx,xxx years ago there was a single male that we all descended through DNA and the same for a single female. The issue for what WarEr4Christ is saying is that they are separated by tens of thousands of years. Whether you believe in evolution or young earth creation you still have to believe there is a "father" of all and a "mother" of all... just in different terms.


Yes, I know about the Adam and Eve DNA. The "hogwash" to which I refer is the notion that "it would have taken several thousands of each to generate all that we have today." The Adam and Eve DNA are in no way contradictory to the notion of evolution.


Just checking...

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June 26th, 2011, 9:46 pm
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Post Re: Christian Faith Requires Accepting Evolution
Blueskies wrote:
Why then are the countries that lead us far more atheistic?


You mean countries that got so far away from religion that they were able to think on their own? Countries free of the need to use "fantasy" books to cultivate war and oppress? Countries like China, USSR, North Korea, Japan... oh... oops...

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June 26th, 2011, 9:48 pm
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Post Re: Christian Faith Requires Accepting Evolution
Let's make this easy:

Claim: Removing (the Christian) God from the public schools led to the United States' decline in educational rankings.

Inferences:
1) Less God in schools = worse school systems
2) More God in schools = better school systems

Going off this, we should expect that the best educated nations have the most Christian school systems.

But, we find that this is not the case. Most of the countries that outrank the US are in Western Europe or East Asia, and basically atheistic societies. The Christian God is less in their school systems than he is in ours.

Thus, the claim is satisfactorily disproven.

Unless you want to argue one of two things:

1) God favors/disfavors the United States, and is punishing us for "kicking him out" of the school system. He treats other countries differently.

This seems laughably silly to me. I have no response if you want to argue this, but it just seems...retarded.

2) God himself made no changes to our school system. Rather, the societal shift which coincided with God being removed from the school system is what caused our academics to become relatively worse.


June 27th, 2011, 12:58 am
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Post Re: Christian Faith Requires Accepting Evolution
Blueskies wrote:
Let's make this easy:

Claim: Removing (the Christian) God from the public schools led to the United States' decline in educational rankings.

Inferences:
1) Less God in schools = worse school systems
2) More God in schools = better school systems

Going off this, we should expect that the best educated nations have the most Christian school systems.

But, we find that this is not the case. Most of the countries that outrank the US are in Western Europe or East Asia, and basically atheistic societies. The Christian God is less in their school systems than he is in ours.

Thus, the claim is satisfactorily disproven.

Unless you want to argue one of two things:

1) God favors/disfavors the United States, and is punishing us for "kicking him out" of the school system. He treats other countries differently.

This seems laughably silly to me. I have no response if you want to argue this, but it just seems...retarded.

2) God himself made no changes to our school system. Rather, the societal shift which coincided with God being removed from the school system is what caused our academics to become relatively worse.


2) is obviously correct... but I would also add, the same stupid logic applies when individuals try to blame religion for war.

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June 27th, 2011, 9:09 am
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Post Re: Christian Faith Requires Accepting Evolution
Removing God and prayer from public schools didn't ruin the American school systems. It was a combination of many things:

1. School systems administrators who forgot that education is their jobs
2. The forced passing of minority students who didn't earn passing grades
3. Liberalism on a monumental scale in the school AND judicial systems that lead to teachers not having control in their classrooms and parents not having control in their homes.
4. An economy that basically forces kids to fend for themselves because both parents need to work to make ends meet, and sometimes are forced to work multiple jobs and have no time to help their kids at home.

All that said, did the removal of prayer from school, as well as the required Pledge of Allegiance make our education system better? I will answer with an emphatic "NO"!!!!!

Remember folks, this whole separation of church and state has been bastardized by a very liberal minded court system, who sided with people that took that clause completely out of context and manipulated to suit their own agendas. The separation of church and state is about the American government not forcing people to join a particular denomination that is wholely founded and supported by our government. It has NOTHING to do with not allowing the mention of God, Jesus, Allah, Buddha, etc. in schools, nor removing prayer from said institutions.

So while the removal of said things didn't ruin the education system, the liberal minded thinking that prompted it HAS ruined the American education system. Teachers that can't punish students, teachers that can't fail students, administrators who misappropriate funds and are not removed from their jobs, parents who accuse teachers of wrongdoing when their children are the culprits, etc. All of that has attributed to the decomposition of the quality in American schools.

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June 27th, 2011, 9:20 am
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Post Re: Christian Faith Requires Accepting Evolution
m2karateman wrote:
Removing God and prayer from public schools didn't ruin the American school systems. It was a combination of many things:

1. School systems administrators who forgot that education is their jobs
2. The forced passing of minority students who didn't earn passing grades
3. Liberalism on a monumental scale in the school AND judicial systems that lead to teachers not having control in their classrooms and parents not having control in their homes.
4. An economy that basically forces kids to fend for themselves because both parents need to work to make ends meet, and sometimes are forced to work multiple jobs and have no time to help their kids at home.

All that said, did the removal of prayer from school, as well as the required Pledge of Allegiance make our education system better? I will answer with an emphatic "NO"!!!!!

Remember folks, this whole separation of church and state has been bastardized by a very liberal minded court system, who sided with people that took that clause completely out of context and manipulated to suit their own agendas. The separation of church and state is about the American government not forcing people to join a particular denomination that is wholely founded and supported by our government. It has NOTHING to do with not allowing the mention of God, Jesus, Allah, Buddha, etc. in schools, nor removing prayer from said institutions.

So while the removal of said things didn't ruin the education system, the liberal minded thinking that prompted it HAS ruined the American education system. Teachers that can't punish students, teachers that can't fail students, administrators who misappropriate funds and are not removed from their jobs, parents who accuse teachers of wrongdoing when their children are the culprits, etc. All of that has attributed to the decomposition of the quality in American schools.


In general, way too many facets of public school education have been politicized. Everything from prayer to standardized testing has been handled very badly by both state and federal legislators. BOTH parties are responsible for these irresponsible acts--chalking it up to "the liberals" or "the conservatives" is a profoundly biased position. I know this is off-topic but as a former public school teacher I couldn't let this go unsaid.

To get the topic back on track, I submit that the premise currently being argued (that countries outperforming the U.S. in education are "more atheistic") is not supported by evidence. Schools in Finland, for example, do indeed have religious curricula; students must "opt in" if they want to be included. Canada's schools are outperforming U.S. schools but the Canadian population isn't significantly "more atheistic." Rather, Canadians are less fundamentalist and have more casual attitudes about religion (i.e. they don't go to church as often). In both the U.S. and Canada, the general population self-identifies as Christian 77-78% of the time.

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June 27th, 2011, 10:16 am
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Post Re: Christian Faith Requires Accepting Evolution
Unrelated to religion itself, the removal of religion has contributed to an even greater wrong by the education system. We've always been behind Europe (even the religious) in Education, but we didn't stunt our own students minds. Critical thinking is imperative in a thinking mind, and normally a man/woman don't really achieve it until they're early to mid 20's. By completely removing certain aspects of society and proclaiming them bad, you've removed things that helped build those critical thinking skills. Its not just a removing religion problem, but each and every time you remove decisions from a child's mind, you stunt his ability to make up his mind for himself. We've basically put our children's minds on welfare.... telling them what to think.


June 27th, 2011, 10:40 am
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Post Re: Christian Faith Requires Accepting Evolution
njroar wrote:
We've basically put our children's minds on welfare.... telling them what to think.


Sounds like religion! :lol:

The decline of the education system and religion are two different and non-related issues as M2K pointed out.

A number of counties that do well in eduction are more atheistic in nature, but that has to do with other cultural attitudes that are offshoots of religion/beliefs than any direct result. Look at the parental pressure in the Japan and Koreas of the world.

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June 27th, 2011, 10:55 am
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