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 Problems with Schools 
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Post Re: Problems with Schools
njroar wrote:
Mwill - discipline plays a large role in how serious children take information. Actions and consequences. Take Dodgeball. How many of the "fat" kids, grew up determined to never be the last one picked again? If you couldn't fail a test, or knew the class was graded on a curve, would you strive to be the best? Or do just enough to pass? Discipline at its basic level is taught in the home. When discipline is never instilled there, its not taken seriously at other levels, hence the breakdown.


Of course discipline is important. Enforcing standards of behavior and academic achievement are also important. I can agree with that. However, among the stated premises was that schools are failing because of "liberals," and that schools that spank children are better. Can you defend either of those premises?

njroar wrote:
Pablo, thats the most ridiculous statement I've ever heard lol. There's been few studies that stated that, but its not a proven fact or even generally accepted idea. Japan has the highest average IQ, yet they have a high rate of buddism and honor. China and the US - direct opposites of the spectrum both average 100. Islam is the only supported part of the statement and I believe that's where they skewed the numbers because all muslim countries score in the 80's on average. You could make a bigger comparison on poverty and IQ then you could on religion. Which study were you thinking about? Nyborg & Lynn? And do you think 6k people is a big enough sample to make that broad comparison?


6K is a huge sampling in scientific terms. And I think you're missing Pablo's point. Atheists are a minority everywhere in the world. He noted that the countries identified as "higher IQ" had an atheist population of no more than 20%. In other words, those "higher IQ" countries are still going to contain a religious majority.

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June 27th, 2011, 3:14 pm
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Post Re: Problems with Schools
To chime in on the other discussion - I don't believe there's a correlation between iq and education - do higher iqs result in higher educations? Sometimes, but an education can be purchased, a high iq cannot. Higher iqs in atheists is exactly what the stereotype suggests.

To atheists being the minority.. Isn't the number 40-60% in england?


June 27th, 2011, 3:17 pm
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Post Re: Problems with Schools
m2karateman wrote:
mwill2 wrote:
regularjoe12 wrote:
I dont know if you can make that a factual based comparison.. HOw to you make an accurate comparison between now and the late 70's early 80's.

The only thing I CAN say is that children with definable bounderies and reliable and consistant punishment for bad behavior DO act better than those who have parents who are their "best friend".


As a cultural observation in this country, I can agree with the statement in bold. However, that's different from what m2k is suggesting--the claim is specifically that spanking--both at home and *in school*--will make children smarter and better-behaved.

It is important to note that 20 U.S. states do indeed allow corporal punishment in schools--spanking is NOT a relic of the past. It still happens in U.S. public schools every day.


I never said what you are claiming I said. Please don't put words in my mouth. If you continue to misrepresent my statements, our conversation is done with.


My apologies for misrepresenting one single component--you didn't indicate anything about spanking in school. I'll retract that. However, your larger point--that the problems of our schools have,
Quote:
"[...] been brought about by Liberals, not Conservatives"
remains unsupported. I simply challenge you to support any part of that claim with any form of evidence that doesn't rely solely on personal experience.

Again, I believe that our school issues have been highly politicized and our students have suffered as a result. I agree with you on this. Many of our schools are broken. But to suggest that this is the work of "liberals" demonstrates only a superficial understanding of what is going on.

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June 27th, 2011, 3:36 pm
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Post Re: Problems with Schools
mwill2 wrote:
njroar wrote:
Mwill - discipline plays a large role in how serious children take information. Actions and consequences. Take Dodgeball. How many of the "fat" kids, grew up determined to never be the last one picked again? If you couldn't fail a test, or knew the class was graded on a curve, would you strive to be the best? Or do just enough to pass? Discipline at its basic level is taught in the home. When discipline is never instilled there, its not taken seriously at other levels, hence the breakdown.


Of course discipline is important. Enforcing standards of behavior and academic achievement are also important. I can agree with that. However, among the stated premises was that schools are failing because of "liberals," and that schools that spank children are better. Can you defend either of those premises?

njroar wrote:
Pablo, thats the most ridiculous statement I've ever heard lol. There's been few studies that stated that, but its not a proven fact or even generally accepted idea. Japan has the highest average IQ, yet they have a high rate of buddism and honor. China and the US - direct opposites of the spectrum both average 100. Islam is the only supported part of the statement and I believe that's where they skewed the numbers because all muslim countries score in the 80's on average. You could make a bigger comparison on poverty and IQ then you could on religion. Which study were you thinking about? Nyborg & Lynn? And do you think 6k people is a big enough sample to make that broad comparison?


6K is a huge sampling in scientific terms. And I think you're missing Pablo's point. Atheists are a minority everywhere in the world. He noted that the countries identified as "higher IQ" had an atheist population of no more than 20%. In other words, those "higher IQ" countries are still going to contain a religious majority.


Actually it was more than 20%, which in some cases could be the majority. That said, I think that is a different matter than the one at hand so I'd rather not derail what should be the focus of this thread - problems with (and hopefully fixing) the educational system here in the states.

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June 27th, 2011, 3:39 pm
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Post Re: Problems with Schools
aughsum wrote:
To chime in on the other discussion - I don't believe there's a correlation between iq and education - do higher iqs result in higher educations? Sometimes, but an education can be purchased, a high iq cannot. Higher iqs in atheists is exactly what the stereotype suggests.

To atheists being the minority.. Isn't the number 40-60% in england?


England is similar to the U.S. and Canada in terms of religious demographics. About 77% Christian.

Pablo wrote:
Actually it was more than 20%, which in some cases could be the majority. That said, I think that is a different matter than the one at hand so I'd rather not derail what should be the focus of this thread - problems with (and hopefully fixing) the educational system here in the states.


Dang, I misread that. Are there any nations in the world in which atheism is a majority? That would shock me.

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June 27th, 2011, 3:44 pm
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Post Re: Problems with Schools
Looked it up and you're right, 71%, must have gotten some bad info somewhere.


June 27th, 2011, 3:51 pm
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Post Re: Problems with Schools
I'd actually agree that there is a higher IQ within liberal and athiest circles than in Christian and fundamentalist circles.

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June 27th, 2011, 3:58 pm
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Post Re: Problems with Schools
mwill2 wrote:
aughsum wrote:
To chime in on the other discussion - I don't believe there's a correlation between iq and education - do higher iqs result in higher educations? Sometimes, but an education can be purchased, a high iq cannot. Higher iqs in atheists is exactly what the stereotype suggests.

To atheists being the minority.. Isn't the number 40-60% in england?


England is similar to the U.S. and Canada in terms of religious demographics. About 77% Christian.

Pablo wrote:
Actually it was more than 20%, which in some cases could be the majority. That said, I think that is a different matter than the one at hand so I'd rather not derail what should be the focus of this thread - problems with (and hopefully fixing) the educational system here in the states.


Dang, I misread that. Are there any nations in the world in which atheism is a majority? That would shock me.


I can look into that, but I think atheist isn't the term I would use for countries where, for example, Budhdism is dominant "religion" yet it doesn't deal with the issue of a personal God. Here are some of those countries; Thailand (95% Buddist), Cambodia (90%), Tibet (60%), Vietnam (55%), Japan (50%) - there are a number of countries I have left out here.

I think it is hard to always quantify the number of Atheist. Remember atheists are the most distrusted of any minority group (according to studies), so please forgive them if they identify with another group. I have identified myself as Catholic on numerous occassions to avoid potential issues (sad but true).

But again, that is a different issue than the one at hand. Want to fix the education system fast, first get rid of the teacher unions!!! (ask my brother, he is a HS teacher in Michigan)

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June 27th, 2011, 3:59 pm
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Post Re: Problems with Schools
The other issue, is beyond the religious and atheists are the agnostics, which those same studies also say are less intelligent than atheists. And i think Agnostics outnumber the others combined.

And I don't think the unions themselves are the problem, its the union administration as well as the Department of Education. Its all unnecessary bureaucracy that ties up unnecessary dollars into aspects of education that has nothing to do with the kids.


June 27th, 2011, 4:20 pm
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Post Re: Problems with Schools
njroar wrote:
The other issue, is beyond the religious and atheists are the agnostics, which those same studies also say are less intelligent than atheists. And i think Agnostics outnumber the others combined.

And I don't think the unions themselves are the problem, its the union administration as well as the Department of Education. Its all unnecessary bureaucracy that ties up unnecessary dollars into aspects of education that has nothing to do with the kids.


Wll, imagine a school has to cut teachers. Do they base that on teacher quality? No, tenure. Imagine you have to keep a teacher with 20+ years experience who cares nothing for kids or their eduction, instead of two (for the same price as the one) who are passionate about kids and teaching them. That is what a union will do and it pisses off the good teachers and hurts the kids. That is one of many issues with the unions in schools, lets get good old competition going and see how things improve.

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June 27th, 2011, 4:37 pm
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Post Re: Problems with Schools
aughsum wrote:
Looked it up and you're right, 71%, must have gotten some bad info somewhere.

Active chruch goers will be significantly lower than 71%.

71% of people here maybe got married in a church, had their kid christened, would have a church funeral etc - ie nominally Christian.


June 27th, 2011, 4:42 pm
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Post Re: Problems with Schools
Pablo wrote:
njroar wrote:
The other issue, is beyond the religious and atheists are the agnostics, which those same studies also say are less intelligent than atheists. And i think Agnostics outnumber the others combined.

And I don't think the unions themselves are the problem, its the union administration as well as the Department of Education. Its all unnecessary bureaucracy that ties up unnecessary dollars into aspects of education that has nothing to do with the kids.


Wll, imagine a school has to cut teachers. Do they base that on teacher quality? No, tenure. Imagine you have to keep a teacher with 20+ years experience who cares nothing for kids or their eduction, instead of two (for the same price as the one) who are passionate about kids and teaching them. That is what a union will do and it pisses off the good teachers and hurts the kids. That is one of many issues with the unions in schools, lets get good old competition going and see how things improve.


Bingo...

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June 27th, 2011, 4:42 pm
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Post Re: Problems with Schools
Im late! this was posted by NJ 1/2 way though the 1st page but I wanted to endorse this with example!

Quote:
As to books... most books from the 80's are actually better than they are now.


I picked up a history book from one of the kids that work for me. WWII was aproxamatly 3 paragraphs long, with one paragragh on the battal of the bulge saying: "and the Germans put up a good fight but general.....um...so and so.( my bad im horrible with names) said "AW NUTS" and fought on to victory".


yeah I dont know what you werre taught in school, but i went to a FLint Public school (An AWFUL school system if I do say so myself...hell look at my spelling! tahts where I lenrt tit (lol)) and even I was taught more than that.. I wa more than a little disturbed..."aw nuts"?? thats all they had to say about the battle of the bulge? really?? sad....

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June 27th, 2011, 5:38 pm
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Post Re: Problems with Schools
Perhaps, it's libtard policies like this that contribute to the problem:
LA Times wrote:
L.A. Unified's new homework policy gives students a break

Homework will now count for only 10% of a student's grade. Critics — mostly teachers — worry the policy will encourage students to slack off assigned work and even reward those who already disregard assignments.

By Howard Blume, Los Angeles Times

June 27, 2011

Vanessa Perez was a homework scofflaw. The Marshall High School senior didn't finish all of it — largely because she worked 24 hours a week at a Subway sandwich shop.

Alvaro Ramirez, a junior at the Santee Education Complex, doesn't have his own room and his mother baby-sits young children at night. "They're always there and they're always loud," he said, explaining his challenges with homework.

The nation's second-largest school system has decided to give students like these a break. A new policy decrees that homework can count for only 10% of a student's grade.

Critics — mostly teachers — worry that the policy will encourage students to slack off assigned work and even reward those who already disregard assignments. And they say it could penalize hardworking students who receive higher marks for effort.

Some educators also object to a one-size-fits-all mandate they said could hamstring teaching or homogenize it. They say, too, that students who do their homework perform significantly better than those who don't — a view supported by research.

But Los Angeles Unified is pressing forward, joining a growing list of school districts across the country that are taking on homework — including Fontana and Pleasanton, N.J. In many districts, limits are being placed on the amount of homework so students can spend more time with their families or pursue extracurricular activities like sports or hobbies. The competition to get into top colleges has left students anxious and exhausted, with little free time, parents complain.

In Davis, a policy that took effect this year specifies homework maximums, with some exceptions for advanced courses. And it prohibits assigning homework over weekends and holidays while also addressing the quality of the assignments.

That effort, and others, aligns with national trends and widely accepted research.

A good thumbnail is 10 minutes per day multiplied by the grade of the student, said Duke University professor Harris Cooper. So a sixth-grader should be able to handle 60 minutes. Cooper said homework patterns have followed 30-year cycles: the Soviets' launch of Sputnik in 1957, for example, also launched a crusade in this country to increase homework. The trend is now swinging against more-is-better.

The L.A. approach is intended to account for the myriad urban problems facing the district's mostly low-income, minority population. It's also aimed at supporting L.A. Unified's increasing focus on boosting measureable academic achievement.

According to the new policy, "Varying degrees of access to academic support at home, for whatever reason, should not penalize a student so severely that it prevents the student from passing a class, nor should it inflate the grade." It was distributed to schools last month.

Veronica Castro, a Santee junior, cooks and cleans for her family. She also shares a room with her sister, who likes to watch television. Another TV blares in the living room next door: "Sometimes homework is the last thing I have to do instead of the first."

Santee science teacher Cesar Alcaraz said he already takes students' home environments into consideration and hopes the policy will curb poor homework practices by teachers.

Homework should not be used to punish or reward; grades should be based on learning so that it "accurately represents what a student knows and is able to do," the policy says. Grades should not be based on how students attain knowledge "nor [on] their behavior, attitude, effort or attendance."

Previously, teachers could determine how much weight should be given to homework, tests and other assignments.

The homework change accompanies another policy being tested: More than three dozen campuses are experimenting with boosting a student's grade for improved performance on state standardized tests.

Both policies were quietly developed this year under the auspices of Chief Academic Officer Judy Elliott. Both emphasize measurable results in a school system in which teachers, principals and even the superintendent will be evaluated on student performance.

The new policy is commendable but should be combined with helping teachers improve their use of homework, said Etta Kralovec, co-author of "The End of Homework" and a University of Arizona associate professor.

Wheelock College associate professor Janine Bempechat said the district should focus on providing students the support they need to complete their homework, which remains crucial. "To make homework worthy of only 10% of a student's grade sends a message that it is not important," Bempechat said.

Though many Santee students have burdens outside of school, "students need to realize that they're held accountable," said Chris Johnson, who teaches Advanced Placement English and history.

"They have to rise up to meet that, organize their time and be much more mature at a younger age than many students," Johnson said. "If it takes till midnight, then you burn the midnight oil." Without substantial homework, he can't cover the necessary course work, he added.

Several students praised the quality of Johnson's homework but added that others assigned busywork, including coloring.

"By the time I got to that assignment, at 2 in the morning, I found it irrelevant, tedious and not worth doing," said junior Israel Hipolito. "I got high scores on tests but a lower grade because of the coloring assignment."

The district policy doesn't speak to how much homework should be assigned.

Several teachers said they intended to continue assigning homework as before, but questioned whether students would take it as seriously.

Compliance is already a problem. In non-honors classes, teachers said they were fortunate if 50% of students did their homework.

Some teachers at Marshall and Santee provide help with homework — and oversee its completion —by opening up their rooms before and after class, and even on Saturdays.

"I do my homework, but I don't do it too often," said Marshall junior Lexus Bailey, whose schedule includes honors classes. "I'll tell myself I'm going to do my homework, then I don't."

"It's a waste of time and a poor reflection of whether I'm learning the subject," said Marshall senior Manny Hernandez, who is developing his own janitorial business outside of school hours. "And it's so easy to copy other students' homework, it's ridiculous."

Elizabeth Hernandez, a junior at King-Drew Medical Magnet, toils six hours a night, which she said keeps her from being lazy and watching TV but doesn't stop her from doing karate and other activities.

"It's good that she is studying," said her mother, Gloria Hernandez, in Spanish. "But I feel that we don't have time to talk and do things together."


http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-homework-20110627,0,2416846,full.story

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June 27th, 2011, 6:00 pm
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Post Re: Problems with Schools
Man... you could NEVER do any homework, get an C on all your in class assignments, and pass... talk about squeeking by!

It's total BS... if the kid has a loud family, go to the library. These kids will be so ill prepared for college if they want to go they won't know what to do.

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June 27th, 2011, 6:17 pm
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