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 IOM Report: "Birth Control Should Be Free" 
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RIP Killer
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Post Re: IOM Report: "Birth Control Should Be Free"
1) We will always have poor... there is no long term solution for that
2) We will ALWAYS have selfish people who will not care for their children because they chose X instead... there is no long term solution to eliminate this. (is A cause for #1 as well)
3) Start from scratch on a new gov't. Forget everything else, no healthcare, no other BS you guys are using as a red herrings... there are GOING to be uncared for children given #1 and #2. You are now looking at a 6 month of child... does the gov't step in and care for that child?

If you answer NO, at least you can consider yourself consistent... but you are in a very small minority. I would even doubt that because every persons stomach here would turn looking at an orphanage in China, Russia, and Africa... that is what you get when you don't care.

If YES, then you have admitted that then the CAUSE of this needed care is a then directly impacting the gov'ts budget and creative ideas need taken to combat it. Given that there is NO solution to #1 or #2 without handouts... what "long term" solution would you propose rather than giving free condoms, vasectomies, and tubal ligation?

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July 21st, 2011, 11:27 am
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RIP Killer
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Post Re: IOM Report: "Birth Control Should Be Free"
njroar wrote:
steensn wrote:
Pablo wrote:
Well if we are going to address issues from a long-term economical standpoint, well then the gov't needs to shut down all the fast food chains, make soda illegal, eliminate cell phones (just think of all the accidents caused by texting), etc... Maybe they should be on every street corner giving away fresh fruits and vegetables.

IMO this is really a question of when the gov't should be involved and not involved in our lives. I inevitably fall on the side the less gov't the better and this case is no exception.


You are taking allowing a FREE service translate into shutting stuff down and forcing things? Are you really going to be that dishonest here Pablo?

If giving away fresh fruit on the corner lowers the amount of money the gov't shells out for medical problems later then the answer is clearly yes. If we aren't creative and get over these idiotic notions that the gov't "shouldn't do certain things" we'll never solve the problem by attaching the source of the issue.

Less gov't for the sake of less gov't is idiotic... you take things at a case by case level to see if ti adds benefit long term. Gov't MUST get involve when it directly effects what they have to do, like somehow take care of the children that cannot take care of themselves. You want less gov't then throw the 6 month old on the street and hope he figures out how o dig for food in a garbage bin. Until you don;t have a heart anymore... let's get creative on how we can take care of less without killing them or leaving them to starve. This is a very short cited stance to take.


The poor already get free birth control. They aren't using it. Obamacare makes it free for all. The whole argument of protecting children who can't take care of themselves doesn't even apply here. This is nothing but a ploy to get votes from Women's groups because it throws them a bone. Vasectomy's are never on the table, because apparently women are the only ones who can every choose. The people who this would effect, have no worries about costs, except co-pays. So your cost benefit is out the window also. This system of making it free for all raises costs for everyone across the board. Making them pay for it, only effects those that want to go on birth control. How's that effect the "greater benefit?"

Your view is skewed because you live in a nanny state. CA passes every law they possibly can, because they want to control everything. At least in CA, you as a citizen can start an initiative to bring it to vote by the people. Most states you can't.

As to no moral issues... Its against the Catholic religion to use ANY birth control period. This would force the Catholic church to pay for policies for their employees that directly interferes with their belief system. That one issue will end up making the whole thing fall apart.


Read my last post, it has nothing to do with the state I moved to 2 years ago. IF you are willing to kick a 6 month old out on the street I'll stop talking about it since you have a consistent viewpoint. If you think that we should care for them then start coming up with ideas to reduce that cost without huge moral issues instead of shooting ALL of them down because they are somehow in the bucket if "bigger gov't."

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July 21st, 2011, 11:30 am
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Post Re: IOM Report: "Birth Control Should Be Free"
steensn, your intentions are vert good, your results will be very bad in the long run but I'm not going to argue with you since that is not the purpose of this thread.

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July 21st, 2011, 11:36 am
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Post Re: IOM Report: "Birth Control Should Be Free"
Gotta address the issue somehow... unfortunately most people are against anything because it involves more gov't action which is a red herring to whether it is good or bad.

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July 21st, 2011, 11:43 am
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Post Re: IOM Report: "Birth Control Should Be Free"
The only way to fix the issue your describing is to force people to use birth control and we know that will never fly. And you can't keep creating government agencies to cover the negligence of people that are the results of previous government actions that led to them not having any personal responsibility. There's a safety net under everything now, because no one has to face consequences for their actions anymore.

Seriously, let a few of those 6 month old children die to their parents neglect, and make laws to punish the parents, not pass laws that only protect the children and allow more and more parents to start neglecting theirs. Wouldn't that be for the greater good? If you only help those in need without addressing the problem, it will just grow out of control, like every welfare system in the country. What was meant to help those in need, is now a viable alternative to going out and working to support your family.


July 21st, 2011, 12:15 pm
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Post Re: IOM Report: "Birth Control Should Be Free"
njroar wrote:
The only way to fix the issue your describing is to force people to use birth control and we know that will never fly. And you can't keep creating government agencies to cover the negligence of people that are the results of previous government actions that led to them not having any personal responsibility. There's a safety net under everything now, because no one has to face consequences for their actions anymore.


Red Herring... I'm proposing to "FIX" the situation rather reduce the impact. It can't be fixed because humans are flawed and make mistakes. We can only provide options and incentives to reduce the impact of the situation.

njroar wrote:
Seriously, let a few of those 6 month old children die to their parents neglect, and make laws to punish the parents, not pass laws that only protect the children and allow more and more parents to start neglecting theirs. Wouldn't that be for the greater good?


There are laws, doesn't stop parents. How are you going to make a parent care by making the laws worse if they don't care in the first place? They already get sent to jail or fined, hasn't done a dang thing. Propose something for me instead of false generalities.

njroar wrote:
If you only help those in need without addressing the problem, it will just grow out of control, like every welfare system in the country. What was meant to help those in need, is now a viable alternative to going out and working to support your family.


Red Herring, it isn't a welfare system, it is a preventative system to reduce CLEAR places the gov't has to stand in. You never answered my post above you instead focus on making red herrings of the current state of things. I'm talking clean slate, smart decisions based on REAL LIFE.

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July 21st, 2011, 12:34 pm
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Post Re: IOM Report: "Birth Control Should Be Free"
i can fix the whole thing...mandatory spade and neutering to anyone who cant get above a 90 on an IQ test. Problem soved! AND more jobs open up due need for more vets...er doctors. AND natural selection cuts back on the morons in under 3 generations!

I should sooo run for president!

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July 21st, 2011, 1:16 pm
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Post Re: IOM Report: "Birth Control Should Be Free"
regularjoe12 wrote:
i can fix the whole thing...mandatory spade and neutering to anyone who cant get above a 90 on an IQ test. Problem soved! AND more jobs open up due need for more vets...er doctors. AND natural selection cuts back on the morons in under 3 generations!

I should sooo run for president!


Our population would go into a free fall. Think about all the folks who are reproducing now, the lower the IQ the more children they have. In fact, think about the gov't programs that although not intended to do this, in fact promote this very fact. On the surface these programs sounded all caring and who doesn't want poor children taken care of? But the end result was very different - can't we ever learn from these past mistakes? It amazes me how we continue to go down the same paths that have lead us to our current state of affairs.

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July 21st, 2011, 2:05 pm
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Post Re: IOM Report: "Birth Control Should Be Free"
Pablo wrote:
regularjoe12 wrote:
i can fix the whole thing...mandatory spade and neutering to anyone who cant get above a 90 on an IQ test. Problem soved! AND more jobs open up due need for more vets...er doctors. AND natural selection cuts back on the morons in under 3 generations!

I should sooo run for president!


Our population would go into a free fall. Think about all the folks who are reproducing now, the lower the IQ the more children they have. In fact, think about the gov't programs that although not intended to do this, in fact promote this very fact. On the surface these programs sounded all caring and who doesn't want poor children taken care of? But the end result was very different - can't we ever learn from these past mistakes? It amazes me how we continue to go down the same paths that have lead us to our current state of affairs.

Im even hip to a little population shrinkage. this too solves problems. same amount of food, less people...I just solved hunger! sure the job market would decline a bit, it would mostly be in the minimum wage jobs like fast food, BUT smaller population means supply and demand on jobs would be shifted and better pay would be achieved...I just ballanced the budget!


Ok whos voting for me??

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July 21st, 2011, 2:14 pm
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Post Re: IOM Report: "Birth Control Should Be Free"
Do any of you think that the "poor" people that continue to have kids are doing so simply because they don't have access to birth control? They have access now, right now and CHOOSE not to.

Most of the "problem" pregnancies in question are the unwanted ones. Those are attributed to mainly teenage pregancies. You can't expect these kids to make a life impacting decision to get a vasectomy or their tubes tied when what they want right now is just to get laid. They typically act on impulse, and the idea of using a condom or some other female-invasive form (spermicidal foam, etc.) of temporary birth control isn't going to happen because of the "moment". The only other choice is putting the girls on the pill, or patch. But the problem here is not JUST the cost, but the fact that some won't be able to use the pill due to medical reasons. Also, most of these kids are highly irresponsible and expecting them to be consistent with taking the pill might be a problem.

Education has not worked. Providing condoms has not worked. Giving them all this for free won't work.

When is the last time the government has done anything that's worked with positive effect?

In regards to these folks having multiple babies, and the taxpayer footing the bills, it should stop and stop now. If a six month old child suffers, so be it. We can't save them all, so stop trying. You can't fix it all, so stop trying. Welfare has run amuck in this country, and there's better ways to spend that money than to hand it to irresponsible teenage parents who keep having babies because it pays to do so.

The only thing that I would endorse for the government to do is if they could somehow instill a sense of responsibility and accountability into these kids heads. Find a pill that would do that, and I'd not only endorse handing them out, I'd put them in Pez dispensers for them.

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July 21st, 2011, 2:35 pm
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Post Re: IOM Report: "Birth Control Should Be Free"
The only Red herring here is the one you're creating. The question of this thread is should birth control be free. And the answer is no. You can try to switch the topic to the poor, or the children, but that's not the question. Nothing is free, and trying to make this about something its not, is the red herring here.

And the answer to the above system is no. Without welfare systems, healthcare, etc.., you'd have the society where when someone struggled or didn't do the right thing, the community around them stepped up to help out or raise the child. The system itself not only put a safety net to help, but it raised the net so high. Now its not help, its a lifestyle.

You act like we were a third world country prior to the Great Depression, when none of these programs existed.


July 21st, 2011, 2:41 pm
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Post Re: IOM Report: "Birth Control Should Be Free"
m2karateman wrote:
Do any of you think that the "poor" people that continue to have kids are doing so simply because they don't have access to birth control? They have access now, right now and CHOOSE not to.

Most of the "problem" pregnancies in question are the unwanted ones. Those are attributed to mainly teenage pregancies. You can't expect these kids to make a life impacting decision to get a vasectomy or their tubes tied when what they want right now is just to get laid. They typically act on impulse, and the idea of using a condom or some other female-invasive form (spermicidal foam, etc.) of temporary birth control isn't going to happen because of the "moment". The only other choice is putting the girls on the pill, or patch. But the problem here is not JUST the cost, but the fact that some won't be able to use the pill due to medical reasons. Also, most of these kids are highly irresponsible and expecting them to be consistent with taking the pill might be a problem.

Education has not worked. Providing condoms has not worked. Giving them all this for free won't work.

When is the last time the government has done anything that's worked with positive effect?

In regards to these folks having multiple babies, and the taxpayer footing the bills, it should stop and stop now. If a six month old child suffers, so be it. We can't save them all, so stop trying. You can't fix it all, so stop trying. Welfare has run amuck in this country, and there's better ways to spend that money than to hand it to irresponsible teenage parents who keep having babies because it pays to do so.

The only thing that I would endorse for the government to do is if they could somehow instill a sense of responsibility and accountability into these kids heads. Find a pill that would do that, and I'd not only endorse handing them out, I'd put them in Pez dispensers for them.


+1

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July 21st, 2011, 2:43 pm
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Post Re: IOM Report: "Birth Control Should Be Free"
njroar wrote:
The only Red herring here is the one you're creating. The question of this thread is should birth control be free. And the answer is no. You can try to switch the topic to the poor, or the children, but that's not the question. Nothing is free, and trying to make this about something its not, is the red herring here.

And the answer to the above system is no. Without welfare systems, healthcare, etc.., you'd have the society where when someone struggled or didn't do the right thing, the community around them stepped up to help out or raise the child. The system itself not only put a safety net to help, but it raised the net so high. Now its not help, its a lifestyle.

You act like we were a third world country prior to the Great Depression, when none of these programs existed.

Actually, the question of this thread is:
Quote:
Trying to keep your feelings about the ACA aside, what are your thoughts on this proposal?
IMO, IF one of the main goals of the ACA is to make preventative medicine available to all, then IMO this plan should be implemented; after all, isn't it more responsible, cost effective to prevent unwanted pregnancies then to care for the mother and child after birth for the next 18 years of the child's life? I would say, YES. What say you?
but hey, who needs the details, eh? No worries though as I must have not been clear in the OP considering as most can't seem to grasp that 'little' detail :rolleyes:

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July 21st, 2011, 2:47 pm
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Post Re: IOM Report: "Birth Control Should Be Free"
m2karateman wrote:
If a six month old child suffers, so be it. We can't save them all, so stop trying. You can't fix it all, so stop trying.


And here is some consistency/where we disagree... and I would love to know if Pablo agrees with it. The issue you see m2k is that we are footing the bill for the child in the first place. While I whole heatedly disagree, at least you provide some logical consistency in your stance.

I say we have no option but to help the child who's fault it is not and therefore we should find ways to reduce that. I don't think we can eliminate the issue so either children WILL suffer or we WILL pay to help out. I'd rather pay, you'd rather them suffer... that is the basis for you and I disagreeing on whether or not we should provide free access to birth control (it isn't free, I have to pay $800 to get one)

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July 21st, 2011, 3:13 pm
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Post Re: IOM Report: "Birth Control Should Be Free"
steensn wrote:
m2karateman wrote:
If a six month old child suffers, so be it. We can't save them all, so stop trying. You can't fix it all, so stop trying.


And here is some consistency/where we disagree... and I would love to know if Pablo agrees with it. The issue you see m2k is that we are footing the bill for the child in the first place. While I whole heatedly disagree, at least you provide some logical consistency in your stance.

I say we have no option but to help the child who's fault it is not and therefore we should find ways to reduce that. I don't think we can eliminate the issue so either children WILL suffer or we WILL pay to help out. I'd rather pay, you'd rather them suffer... that is the basis for you and I disagreeing on whether or not we should provide free access to birth control (it isn't free, I have to pay $800 to get one)


steensn, I'd like to see your proof that free birth control does indeed lead to better birth control. I live in a state with one of the highest teen pregnancy rates in the country, stats show that a high percentage of these are hispanic teens - further, many of them are Catholic and their chuch opposes birth control so they refuse to take it (despite the fact that the church also opposes the very act that they are engaging in to begin with) - and these are the sorts of people you are, in fact, trusting will continually use the birth control and not get pregnant.

Your arguments are in a vacuum, once again you fail to see the big and long-term picture. Of course, in an isolated incident I'd try to save the 6th month old child. What you fail to comprehend, is that by saving that 6 mth old, you inadvertently create three others in that original situation thanks to the one you save. You can easily double or triple the problem, despite your good intentions.

Lets look at this from another perspective, would you rather sacrifice three children to save one? Until you understand the full consequences, please don't try to take the more humane standpoint because it may very well have the exact opposite result of what you intend. Do you understand the long term implications that dependency on programs such as this?

Do you think welfare was seen as a long-term solution to peoples problems or a short term "humane" solution to a problem. As the groups who have become dependant on such programs, such as native americans, what the long-term result of such a well intended program has become.

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July 21st, 2011, 3:59 pm
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