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 IOM Report: "Birth Control Should Be Free" 
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Post Re: IOM Report: "Birth Control Should Be Free"
steensn wrote:
m2karateman wrote:
If a six month old child suffers, so be it. We can't save them all, so stop trying. You can't fix it all, so stop trying.


And here is some consistency/where we disagree... and I would love to know if Pablo agrees with it. The issue you see m2k is that we are footing the bill for the child in the first place. While I whole heatedly disagree, at least you provide some logical consistency in your stance.

I say we have no option but to help the child who's fault it is not and therefore we should find ways to reduce that. I don't think we can eliminate the issue so either children WILL suffer or we WILL pay to help out. I'd rather pay, you'd rather them suffer... that is the basis for you and I disagreeing on whether or not we should provide free access to birth control (it isn't free, I have to pay $800 to get one)



I'd rather NOT pay the parents. There's the difference. If the parents are neglectful, take the child and put them up for adoption. But how do we prevent those parents from continuing to have children and collect ADC and welfare in the process?

Also, at issue is our dysfunctional legal system, that time and again takes a child out of a neglectful home and shortly thereafter puts that child right back and into harms way. The court system thinks a "reformed" crack addict whore of a mother has more right to that child than to put them into anothers care who would do better by the child.

And again, you want to give people free access to birth control. Fine. You gonna make them use it, too? Because if they don't, you're throwing away money for nothing. I think you'd find very, VERY few young men will be willing to get a vasectomy.

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July 21st, 2011, 4:02 pm
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Post Re: IOM Report: "Birth Control Should Be Free"
Pablo wrote:
steensn, I'd like to see your proof that free birth control does indeed lead to better birth control. I live in a state with one of the highest teen pregnancy rates in the country, stats show that a high percentage of these are hispanic teens - further, many of them are Catholic and their chuch opposes birth control so they refuse to take it (despite the fact that the church also opposes the very act that they are engaging in to begin with) - and these are the sorts of people you are, in fact, trusting will continually use the birth control and not get pregnant.


I don't have proof, but no one contended the effects of the program... this is now starting to feel like a shotgun approach reaching for anything that will stick.

I know we can find many people who it won't work for... no one is billing this to be a complete solution to the problem. It is simply A potentially impactful way to help the situation. It isn't fix or not, there is also help.

Pablo wrote:
Your arguments are in a vacuum, once again you fail to see the big and long-term picture. Of course, in an isolated incident I'd try to save the 6th month old child. What you fail to comprehend, is that by saving that 6 mth old, you inadvertently create three others in that original situation thanks to the one you save. You can easily double or triple the problem, despite your good intentions.


Ok, then do we not save the one so we can avoid the other three? Again, you are not arguing birth control you are arguing whether the gov't should take care of children not receiving it. I understand exactly the compounding problem it causes, which is why there should be sets of solutions put in place to help that.

If you CHOOSE to save the millions of children that need it in this country then you are in the same boat as me and need solutions to help that. Either don't save the child or come up with ideas...

Pablo wrote:
Lets look at this from another perspective, would you rather sacrifice three children to save one? Until you understand the full consequences, please don't try to take the more humane standpoint because it may very well have the exact opposite result of what you intend. Do you understand the long term implications that dependency on programs such as this?


The reverse is not true in this case. I would not risk one life to give reason to not produce 3 more lives and I would not sacrifice 3 to save one. I would save all four before I sacrificed 1.

Pablo wrote:
Do you think welfare was seen as a long-term solution to peoples problems or a short term "humane" solution to a problem. As the groups who have become dependant on such programs, such as native americans, what the long-term result of such a well intended program has become.


Look me in the "eyes" and tell me that you wouldn't hep the children.

You are straddling a fence here Pablo... you won't just say it and you want me to straddle that fence with you. M2K will let the child die,that is logically consistent. You said you'd save the child but are still trying to tell me that we should cut welfare out for the better good. I'm sorry... but you are not being clear here and are all over the map.

Just tell me, do we leave children out in the street cold, hungry, and dying or not? You don't want me to make humane decisions but you won't say you wouldn't.

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July 21st, 2011, 4:18 pm
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Post Re: IOM Report: "Birth Control Should Be Free"
m2karateman wrote:
And again, you want to give people free access to birth control. Fine. You gonna make them use it, too? Because if they don't, you're throwing away money for nothing. I think you'd find very, VERY few young men will be willing to get a vasectomy.


Again, you want a one size fix all fix and that simply is not the case. Wags proposed does it make sense in the long run. The answer to that is based on whether or not one believes it will prevent more $ being spent later than invested. I proposed a situation based on real statistics and numbers and it was ignored... you'd rather argue whether or not it will completely eliminate every need for medicare. That simply is not what was proposed... You don't need to force anyone, you just need as enough people get permanent birth control methods to take part that would end up having children we care for to pay for the system. If .02% of 1 million men a year didn't have a child that would be put in the system, the cost for vasectomies would be paid for the following year as the children would not be there for cost us any budget. Any year after that those children are not on the budget we see a double of our investment every year after.

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July 21st, 2011, 4:25 pm
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Post Re: IOM Report: "Birth Control Should Be Free"
steensn wrote:
Pablo wrote:
steensn, I'd like to see your proof that free birth control does indeed lead to better birth control. I live in a state with one of the highest teen pregnancy rates in the country, stats show that a high percentage of these are hispanic teens - further, many of them are Catholic and their chuch opposes birth control so they refuse to take it (despite the fact that the church also opposes the very act that they are engaging in to begin with) - and these are the sorts of people you are, in fact, trusting will continually use the birth control and not get pregnant.


I don't have proof, but no one contended the effects of the program... this is now starting to feel like a shotgun approach reaching for anything that will stick.

I know we can find many people who it won't work for... no one is billing this to be a complete solution to the problem. It is simply A potentially impactful way to help the situation. It isn't fix or not, there is also help.

Pablo wrote:
Your arguments are in a vacuum, once again you fail to see the big and long-term picture. Of course, in an isolated incident I'd try to save the 6th month old child. What you fail to comprehend, is that by saving that 6 mth old, you inadvertently create three others in that original situation thanks to the one you save. You can easily double or triple the problem, despite your good intentions.


Ok, then do we not save the one so we can avoid the other three? Again, you are not arguing birth control you are arguing whether the gov't should take care of children not receiving it. I understand exactly the compounding problem it causes, which is why there should be sets of solutions put in place to help that.

If you CHOOSE to save the millions of children that need it in this country then you are in the same boat as me and need solutions to help that. Either don't save the child or come up with ideas...

Pablo wrote:
Lets look at this from another perspective, would you rather sacrifice three children to save one? Until you understand the full consequences, please don't try to take the more humane standpoint because it may very well have the exact opposite result of what you intend. Do you understand the long term implications that dependency on programs such as this?


The reverse is not true in this case. I would not risk one life to give reason to not produce 3 more lives and I would not sacrifice 3 to save one. I would save all four before I sacrificed 1.

Pablo wrote:
Do you think welfare was seen as a long-term solution to peoples problems or a short term "humane" solution to a problem. As the groups who have become dependant on such programs, such as native americans, what the long-term result of such a well intended program has become.


Look me in the "eyes" and tell me that you wouldn't hep the children.

You are straddling a fence here Pablo... you won't just say it and you want me to straddle that fence with you. M2K will let the child die,that is logically consistent. You said you'd save the child but are still trying to tell me that we should cut welfare out for the better good. I'm sorry... but you are not being clear here and are all over the map.

Just tell me, do we leave children out in the street cold, hungry, and dying or not? You don't want me to make humane decisions but you won't say you wouldn't.


I leave the child in the street cold, hungry, and dying if it means more won't have to suffer the same fate. I'm being very consistent here as I've seen the results of well intended programs and do not want to have more suffer.

As a particpant of the Big Brothers program, I've seen the impact of the various programs first hand on these families and the children. I've tried to "save" them through Big Brothers and more than not failed. The gov't has "saved" these children from hunger, one at a time, only to create a much deeper and bigger problem that continually compounds upon itself.

As a husband to a hispanic woman from "the valley" (a Mexican border area around Brownsville), I see again first hand the impact of well intended programs. Do you think the innocent infant of a woman who just crossed the border shouldn't get free health care when born here in the US? In this one instance - no. But the result is thousands and thousands of women illegally crossing the border, having children (who immediately become citizens with tons of benefits), going into the welfare system here and passing it down generation to generation.

I'll look you in the eyes and tell you "I" would help the child, but I would also look you in the eye and tell you the "government" shouldn't. The short term relief from pain is not worth the long term compounded pain caused.

I do have ideas, they are along the lines of tough love. If either one of my sons grows up and gets a girl pregnant at 18, then he along with the family (me) are responsible - not the gov't - for raising this child and trying to ensure this doesn't happen in the next generation. Short term pain. Your plan, like just about every gov't plan, puts a band aid on a problem (short term fix) creates much bigger issues down the road for future generations to then take care of.

Think welfare, think medicare, think medicade, think social security, think debt, think "fill in the blank" - history continues to repeat itself due to short term thinking to long term problems. You really can't see this pattern over and over?

We humans need to be held accountable, not dependant to the gov't.

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July 21st, 2011, 4:41 pm
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Post Re: IOM Report: "Birth Control Should Be Free"
Lots of great points being brought up here, thanks guys!

On this part:
Pablo wrote:
We humans need to be held accountable, not dependant to the gov't.

But aren't WE THE PEOPLE (humans) the Government???

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July 21st, 2011, 4:51 pm
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Post Re: IOM Report: "Birth Control Should Be Free"
TheRealWags wrote:
njroar wrote:
The only Red herring here is the one you're creating. The question of this thread is should birth control be free. And the answer is no. You can try to switch the topic to the poor, or the children, but that's not the question. Nothing is free, and trying to make this about something its not, is the red herring here.

And the answer to the above system is no. Without welfare systems, healthcare, etc.., you'd have the society where when someone struggled or didn't do the right thing, the community around them stepped up to help out or raise the child. The system itself not only put a safety net to help, but it raised the net so high. Now its not help, its a lifestyle.

You act like we were a third world country prior to the Great Depression, when none of these programs existed.

Actually, the question of this thread is:
Quote:
Trying to keep your feelings about the ACA aside, what are your thoughts on this proposal?
IMO, IF one of the main goals of the ACA is to make preventative medicine available to all, then IMO this plan should be implemented; after all, isn't it more responsible, cost effective to prevent unwanted pregnancies then to care for the mother and child after birth for the next 18 years of the child's life? I would say, YES. What say you?
but hey, who needs the details, eh? No worries though as I must have not been clear in the OP considering as most can't seem to grasp that 'little' detail :rolleyes:


Where am I missing the little detail? What you posted still doesn't break it off only for the poor. And since the poor are already covered under current welfare programs and this proposal (which is already in Obamacare) to cover everyone. So its a blanket assertion that Birth Control should be free for all. Unwanted pregnancies in the middle class and wealthy ranks definitely shouldn't be covered by tax payer dollars. That's where the article is misleading. The only ones that have to care for unwanted pregnancies that they don't pay for is the poor. And they are already covered. This is just trying to generate support for a blanket coverage for all women, regardless of income level. And I say no. Or maybe I'm just having a hard time getting my point across.


July 21st, 2011, 4:56 pm
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Post Re: IOM Report: "Birth Control Should Be Free"
TheRealWags wrote:
Lots of great points being brought up here, thanks guys!

On this part:
Pablo wrote:
We humans need to be held accountable, not dependant to the gov't.

But aren't WE THE PEOPLE (humans) the Government???


No, the gov't is an organization made up of humans. Very different. For example, as a human I would never kill someone - would you? As part of an organization, however, things change (think of the Army as one example).

As part of a business organization I am forced all the time to make choices that hurt an indivdual, but are good for the organization.

The choices we make individually as humans are very different than the ones we make as part of an organization. That is even more true in authoritarian organizations such as gov't. Think of outside motives, like getting re-elected, now being thrown into the mix.

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July 21st, 2011, 4:57 pm
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Post Re: IOM Report: "Birth Control Should Be Free"
Pablo wrote:
I leave the child in the street cold, hungry, and dying if it means more won't have to suffer the same fate. I'm being very consistent here as I've seen the results of well intended programs and do not want to have more suffer.


Just need you to state it, it is important to get that on the table. This is where we are going to differ though. I would rather care for 4 children (they aren't "suffering" if we have good programs to help them out) than let one child suffer. We can argue day and night, but I'd rather live with the long term consequences then let one child suffer. What that means though is that I need to figure out ways to mitigate the long term consequences of that action, hence the birth control for all thought.

Pablo wrote:
As a participant of the Big Brothers program, I've seen the impact of the various programs first hand on these families and the children. I've tried to "save" them through Big Brothers and more than not failed. The gov't has "saved" these children from hunger, one at a time, only to create a much deeper and bigger problem that continually compounds upon itself.

As a husband to a hispanic woman from "the valley" (a Mexican border area around Brownsville), I see again first hand the impact of well intended programs. Do you think the innocent infant of a woman who just crossed the border shouldn't get free health care when born here in the US? In this one instance - no. But the result is thousands and thousands of women illegally crossing the border, having children (who immediately become citizens with tons of benefits), going into the welfare system here and passing it down generation to generation.

I'll look you in the eyes and tell you "I" would help the child, but I would also look you in the eye and tell you the "government" shouldn't. The short term relief from pain is not worth the long term compounded pain caused.

I do have ideas, they are along the lines of tough love. If either one of my sons grows up and gets a girl pregnant at 18, then he along with the family (me) are responsible - not the gov't - for raising this child and trying to ensure this doesn't happen in the next generation. Short term pain. Your plan, like just about every gov't plan, puts a band aid on a problem (short term fix) creates much bigger issues down the road for future generations to then take care of.

Think welfare, think medicare, think medicade, think social security, think debt, think "fill in the blank" - history continues to repeat itself due to short term thinking to long term problems. You really can't see this pattern over and over?

We humans need to be held accountable, not dependant to the gov't.


Where we are going to disagree is the idea that we can or cannot have well run gov't programs. Yes, many have failed so far but not fully. What failed is our ability to hold the ones we elect accountable. Our budget isn't all that suffers, our laws are a mess and just keep getting more complicated or stupid. We don't have a "budget" problem we have a elected officials problem.

What I cannot do is react to that by saying "well then we shouldn't do anything" because that isn't the case. While I applaud and agree with your third to last paragraph... I can't take away the fact that we are all on the hook to help. Through financial assistance, hands on assistance, adoptions, etc... not just for the US but for the world (all countries working together). We fail at this... does that mean we should stop trying? That is where we disagree.

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July 21st, 2011, 5:19 pm
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Post Re: IOM Report: "Birth Control Should Be Free"
steensn wrote:
Pablo wrote:
I leave the child in the street cold, hungry, and dying if it means more won't have to suffer the same fate. I'm being very consistent here as I've seen the results of well intended programs and do not want to have more suffer.


Just need you to state it, it is important to get that on the table. This is where we are going to differ though. I would rather care for 4 children (they aren't "suffering" if we have good programs to help them out) than let one child suffer. We can argue day and night, but I'd rather live with the long term consequences then let one child suffer. What that means though is that I need to figure out ways to mitigate the long term consequences of that action, hence the birth control for all thought.

Pablo wrote:
As a participant of the Big Brothers program, I've seen the impact of the various programs first hand on these families and the children. I've tried to "save" them through Big Brothers and more than not failed. The gov't has "saved" these children from hunger, one at a time, only to create a much deeper and bigger problem that continually compounds upon itself.

As a husband to a hispanic woman from "the valley" (a Mexican border area around Brownsville), I see again first hand the impact of well intended programs. Do you think the innocent infant of a woman who just crossed the border shouldn't get free health care when born here in the US? In this one instance - no. But the result is thousands and thousands of women illegally crossing the border, having children (who immediately become citizens with tons of benefits), going into the welfare system here and passing it down generation to generation.

I'll look you in the eyes and tell you "I" would help the child, but I would also look you in the eye and tell you the "government" shouldn't. The short term relief from pain is not worth the long term compounded pain caused.

I do have ideas, they are along the lines of tough love. If either one of my sons grows up and gets a girl pregnant at 18, then he along with the family (me) are responsible - not the gov't - for raising this child and trying to ensure this doesn't happen in the next generation. Short term pain. Your plan, like just about every gov't plan, puts a band aid on a problem (short term fix) creates much bigger issues down the road for future generations to then take care of.

Think welfare, think medicare, think medicade, think social security, think debt, think "fill in the blank" - history continues to repeat itself due to short term thinking to long term problems. You really can't see this pattern over and over?

We humans need to be held accountable, not dependant to the gov't.


Where we are going to disagree is the idea that we can or cannot have well run gov't programs. Yes, many have failed so far but not fully. What failed is our ability to hold the ones we elect accountable. Our budget isn't all that suffers, our laws are a mess and just keep getting more complicated or stupid. We don't have a "budget" problem we have a elected officials problem.

What I cannot do is react to that by saying "well then we shouldn't do anything" because that isn't the case. While I applaud and agree with your third to last paragraph... I can't take away the fact that we are all on the hook to help. Through financial assistance, hands on assistance, adoptions, etc... not just for the US but for the world (all countries working together). We fail at this... does that mean we should stop trying? That is where we disagree.


And I applaud your desire to help. Often the best help, and most overlooked, is to simply get out of the way. As a parent I really wanted to hold my childs hands as he learned how to walk, but you also at some point have to let go and let the child fall on his own - he then learns to pick himself back up.

You talk about living with the long term consequences, but those are passed down generationally, so you aren't living with the consequences - it is the future generations. Think about natural selection, harsh as it may be on individuals it is essential for the long term survival of the species.

Again, you are trying to be compassionate, but the most compassionate route IMO is to allow folks to become self reliant and accountable, allow them to make mistakes and live with the consequences, and become better people as a result. Truth is, we are both approaching this from the standpoint of compassion - one view is short sighted and views the other as non-compassionate. The other view is over the long term, still see's the other as compassionate but ill educated as to the consequences over the long haul.

You take a "have my cake and eat it too" approach that doesn't work. You say you would rather care for 4 children then let one suffer - I get it. But again compound that now to 12 children suffering because of the four you took care of - it is not a sustainable model - something very much in common with virtually all "well intended" government programs.

My brother runs a great program (Go Connect) in Michigan. He just got back from his second trip to Tanzania where they have built and orphanage and now are helping build a hospital (which I had the honor to name). They realized early on that instead of just being another charity, they need to help the people there to become self sustainable. Handouts just don't have that impact over time - sorry steensn.

If you want to see real change, take away programs like welfare and see what really happens - the results will be magical indeed. On the surface, it sounds like the insensitive thing to do until you realize what the long-term outcome will look actually look like. I believe in empowering people, you do that by making them responsible for themselves and not by you being responsible for them.

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July 21st, 2011, 5:50 pm
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Post Re: IOM Report: "Birth Control Should Be Free"
Quote:
You take a "have my cake and eat it too" approach that doesn't work. You say you would rather care for 4 children then let one suffer - I get it. But again compound that now to 12 children suffering because of the four you took care of - it is not a sustainable model - something very much in common with virtually all "well intended" government programs.


The impact isn't that great though. Compare the US to a place like Ethiopia with seemingly zero handouts and all the real life consequences to their actions including and AIDS epidemic along with it. They have a birth rate of 42.99 births, 1,000 population compared to 13.83 births, 1,000 population for the US and all it's handouts. The real life application of your "tough love" doesn't seem to be working.

In fact, look at this map. Where real life consequences to bad choices occurs, birth rates are sustained at a much higher rate. While I'll admit other factors play a part for this, I don't see any data supporting an overall trend to have more children where "handouts" are available... if you define handouts as providing a loving home for a child that isn't wanted. in fact, I would argue that it is clear that it doesn't matter whether the consequences are there or not... the same decision would be made and results the same. One a case by case basis I am sure you could find some cases on this, but I would argue the overall trends for this country are just the opposite. We are increasingly becoming more and more of a welfare state and our birth rates have declined in ALL race categories minus a blip in the 1980's for Hispanics which has since dropped to below the blip.

The trends seem to suggest the hypothesis that caring for that child breeds an ever increasing amount of bad decisions is a non issue.

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July 21st, 2011, 6:41 pm
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Post Re: IOM Report: "Birth Control Should Be Free"
Pablo wrote:
Handouts just don't have that impact over time - sorry steensn.


No one is suggesting "handouts." That I think is a big mix-up here. Providing birth control to those willing to use it to prevent unwanted pregnancy isn't a handout, it is a TOOL for those persons to take responsibility and use. You already said just giving it out won't do anything because people have to choose to use it. I think making it more readily available allows people to have the tools in place more readily available to encourage good choices. There are enough people I believe willing to get permanent birth control methods put in place than are getting them due to cost and societal stigma (it seems weird).

Making it available and a push to change that stigma allows people like my adopted brothers real father from making any more kids he can't support. He'd jump on it in a heartbeat as he already has been in jail for 3 years due to not paying child support. Put the choice for people there for free who are getting abortions, show up at child support hearings, just having birth, picking up a welfare check, etc... areas where the key contributors are most at would possibly give them the incentive to take the responsible step.

Again, it isn't going to SOLVE the problem. Nothing will but we can impact it with a mix of ways to improve the decision making. There is low hanging fruit we are not going after... that are NOT handouts IMO.

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July 21st, 2011, 6:53 pm
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Post Re: IOM Report: "Birth Control Should Be Free"
Solution:
1) every female gets norplant( or what ever its called ) at the age of 12. If there was an equivalence for men I would do that also.
2) not be able to have removed until financially able to support a child. I know this would create a new gov't section. But geeze....heard it in a movie once......You need a license to catch a fish but anyone can become a parent.


issues
1) that is against my religion
answer. so is having sex in the first place before marriage, so you must not be that into your religion.
answer# 2. Its is not for birth control if your not having sex so it would not be against your religion.

issue
2) I have a right to reproduce.... Says who???? If you say that then you have a right to fend for yourself. Have the baby in an ally take care of it and if something bad happens, like child dies then you go to prison.

Please all don't think I am uncaring and mean. I am just sick of "helping others" when they really do not need the help.
I see people on public assistance smoking, having cable tv. buying junk with food stamps have a cell phone plan that costs $80/month. I say if you can afford cable, smokes why do I need to buy your food for you....I could go on and on

public assistance should be for the basics of life. Never give them any cash. Have a store where there are donated used cloths and the basic foods and house hold supplies. If the working public needs to provide these things for them then they don't cash for anything. All they do with our $$ is waste it on non essentials. All the liberal out there do not want these people to feel bad about being on public assistance. now they are going to Cards so no one at the store knows they are buying stuff on public money...screw that there should be some sort of shame in having to be on public assistance. I know of one girl who works with me who in on food stamps but she can some how afford to bring in a $6.00 coffee from starbucks every morning and smokes like a chimney. She hates me because I remind her each time I see that it really sucks I buy her food and she thinks she can afford starbucks. Oh ya she even has the new I-phone....but I have to buy her food......rant....rant....rant...rant...rant....oh ya and the icing on the cake....wnat to have another child..quote...I'll get a huge amount of money back each year from income tax refund......refund????????????? you get back way more than you had withheld from your pay checks????????????????

Make people responsible for themselves and the problems will go down dramatically.



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let the hating begin.

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July 21st, 2011, 7:46 pm
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Post Re: IOM Report: "Birth Control Should Be Free"
frok wrote:
Solution:
1) every female gets norplant( or what ever its called ) at the age of 12. If there was an equivalence for men I would do that also.
2) not be able to have removed until financially able to support a child. I know this would create a new gov't section. But geeze....heard it in a movie once......You need a license to catch a fish but anyone can become a parent.


issues
1) that is against my religion
answer. so is having sex in the first place before marriage, so you must not be that into your religion.
answer# 2. Its is not for birth control if your not having sex so it would not be against your religion.

issue
2) I have a right to reproduce.... Says who???? If you say that then you have a right to fend for yourself. Have the baby in an ally take care of it and if something bad happens, like child dies then you go to prison.

Please all don't think I am uncaring and mean. I am just sick of "helping others" when they really do not need the help.
I see people on public assistance smoking, having cable tv. buying junk with food stamps have a cell phone plan that costs $80/month. I say if you can afford cable, smokes why do I need to buy your food for you....I could go on and on

public assistance should be for the basics of life. Never give them any cash. Have a store where there are donated used cloths and the basic foods and house hold supplies. If the working public needs to provide these things for them then they don't cash for anything. All they do with our $$ is waste it on non essentials. All the liberal out there do not want these people to feel bad about being on public assistance. now they are going to Cards so no one at the store knows they are buying stuff on public money...screw that there should be some sort of shame in having to be on public assistance. I know of one girl who works with me who in on food stamps but she can some how afford to bring in a $6.00 coffee from starbucks every morning and smokes like a chimney. She hates me because I remind her each time I see that it really sucks I buy her food and she thinks she can afford starbucks. Oh ya she even has the new I-phone....but I have to buy her food......rant....rant....rant...rant...rant....oh ya and the icing on the cake....wnat to have another child..quote...I'll get a huge amount of money back each year from income tax refund......refund????????????? you get back way more than you had withheld from your pay checks????????????????

Make people responsible for themselves and the problems will go down dramatically.



Frok.

let the hating begin.

Only thing I'm going to say here is No Way to the NoraPlant, unless of course you want entire generation of females unwilling and unable to reproduce or even want to. That crap really screws up the system.

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July 22nd, 2011, 9:37 am
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Post Re: IOM Report: "Birth Control Should Be Free"
steensn wrote:
We are increasingly becoming more and more of a welfare state


Agreed and we need to put a stop to it NOW!

We used to be a nation where people used their hands to do a days work, now we just extend them and ask for free stuff - just imagine where this trend ends cause it ain't going to be pretty. Time to start making hard decisions and those who can't need to be taken out of office cause they are going to bankrupt and ruin this once great country.

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July 22nd, 2011, 12:58 pm
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Post Re: IOM Report: "Birth Control Should Be Free"
Pablo wrote:
steensn wrote:
We are increasingly becoming more and more of a welfare state


Agreed and we need to put a stop to it NOW!

We used to be a nation where people used their hands to do a days work, now we just extend them and ask for free stuff - just imagine where this trend ends cause it ain't going to be pretty. Time to start making hard decisions and those who can't need to be taken out of office cause they are going to bankrupt and ruin this once great country.

I'm starting to think that we have the "Baby Boomers" to thank for screwing up everything, after all, aren't they the ones taking all the Social Security, making all the laws and policies we now follow, not too mention the ones that voted in the majority of the asswipes currently in DC??? So we go from "The Greatest Generation" to the "Baby Boomer me first generation" thanks a ton guys :finger:

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July 22nd, 2011, 1:27 pm
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