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 Possible changes in Tax Code 
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Post Re: Possible changes in Tax Code
The flat tax is the only way to go. Most people talk about 12%, but I would prefer a 15% rate until we decrease our debt. In conjunction with this, I'm in favor of eliminating the social security tax cap at $106K or so. Make it unlimited like MediCare is, so the ricjh pay more. Furthermore, increase the standard deduction to $10K for each dependent, but eliminate the EIC. This way, the poor won't have to pay, but they won't get extra back either. But best of all, there would no longer be a need to pay 60,000 IRS employees and their benefits. It's a win-win across the board.

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July 28th, 2011, 1:51 am
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Post Re: Possible changes in Tax Code
Blueskies wrote:
Because the rich utilize the government's services more than the poor. Therefore, they should pay more.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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July 28th, 2011, 9:39 am
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Post Re: Possible changes in Tax Code
Why should all American citizens pay the same tax rate? Because we are all equal under the law. We are all in the same boat. We are all Americans and should be fighting for each other, not against each other.

I would be overjoyed to learn that we develop a flat tax starting at whatever number is needed, say, no tax at all on the first $20,000 of everyone's income, and then 10, 20 or 30% on everyone else.

No credits for charity or home mortgage. No difference in salary versus passive investment income. No penalties for marriage or cohabitation. Everyone gets $20,000 (or $10K or 15 K - pick a number) free of charge.

Of course there would still be standard business deductions, but that applies to business, not individuals.

This way the poor (those making less than $20,000 a year) would pay no tax at all. Then everyone would start paying as they succeeded.

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July 28th, 2011, 10:47 am
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Post Re: Possible changes in Tax Code
Blueskies wrote:
Why? Because the rich utilize the government's services more than the poor. Therefore, they should pay more.



They do pay more, that is why percentages are used instead of fixed sums per person. If you want to learn about percentages there are great resources on the internets:

http://www.google.com/search?q=what+is+ ... 14&bih=663

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percentage

http://www.mathgoodies.com/lessons/vol4 ... rcent.html

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July 28th, 2011, 11:09 am
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Post Re: Possible changes in Tax Code
Quote:
Why should all American citizens pay the same tax rate? Because we are all equal under the law.


Some of us are just more equal than others, right?

Anyway, do you really wanna have this discussion, Pablo?

The rich absolutely do benefit more from the government than the rest of us. I should note that when I say rich I don't mean the small business owner with $5M in the bank. I mean the guys with hundred(s) of millions to billions of dollars.

Yes, the very poor who rely on the government just to survive are dependent upon the system. But the guy collecting $1k a month in disability because he has a "bad back" bothers me much less than:

The Fed making $16 trillion of interest-free loans to financial institutions during the 08' crisis.
The US government spending $800B on TARP.
The institutions accepting TARP turning around and paying million dollar bonuses.
The government paying rich farmers millions NOT to plant crops.
The government giving billion dollar contracts to politically-connected companies like Lockheed and Northrup and Haliburton and on and on.
The entire FDA drug system which is so rampant in corruption we could make an entire topic on it, but suffice it to say: drug companies get rich, everyone else takes it in the behind.
Etc.

The government we have now, as Wags noted, is not Capitalism. It's not even close.

We have a system that benefits the very, very rich and the very poor. The rest of us--the working poor, the middle class, the upper-middle class? We get screwed.

Now, if you want to change the entire system so that we all benefit equally, then sure I'll buy into a flat tax.

But baring that, a progressive tax system makes the most sense. (NOTE: did not say progressive-income tax)


July 28th, 2011, 11:53 pm
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Post Re: Possible changes in Tax Code
Blueskies wrote:
Quote:
Why should all American citizens pay the same tax rate? Because we are all equal under the law.


Some of us are just more equal than others, right?

Anyway, do you really wanna have this discussion, Pablo?

The rich absolutely do benefit more from the government than the rest of us. I should note that when I say rich I don't mean the small business owner with $5M in the bank. I mean the guys with hundred(s) of millions to billions of dollars.

Yes, the very poor who rely on the government just to survive are dependent upon the system. But the guy collecting $1k a month in disability because he has a "bad back" bothers me much less than:

The Fed making $16 trillion of interest-free loans to financial institutions during the 08' crisis.
The US government spending $800B on TARP.
The institutions accepting TARP turning around and paying million dollar bonuses.
The government paying rich farmers millions NOT to plant crops.
The government giving billion dollar contracts to politically-connected companies like Lockheed and Northrup and Haliburton and on and on.
The entire FDA drug system which is so rampant in corruption we could make an entire topic on it, but suffice it to say: drug companies get rich, everyone else takes it in the behind.
Etc.

The government we have now, as Wags noted, is not Capitalism. It's not even close.

We have a system that benefits the very, very rich and the very poor. The rest of us--the working poor, the middle class, the upper-middle class? We get screwed.

Now, if you want to change the entire system so that we all benefit equally, then sure I'll buy into a flat tax.

But baring that, a progressive tax system makes the most sense. (NOTE: did not say progressive-income tax)


For the most part our tax system is set up to redistribute the wealth from the richest Americans to the poorest. You are trying to make this sound like poor pay the bulk of the taxs (not close to true) and the rich are living off of this (way off).

Lets look at some basic principles and make this simple. From wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redistribution_of_wealth

Quote:
Today, income redistribution occurs in some form in most democratic countries. Progressive income redistribution diminishes the amount of income one individual or corporation receives, while at the same time benefitting others. In a progressive income tax system, a high income earner will pay a higher tax rate than a low income earner. A steeper progressive income tax results in more equal distribution of income and wealth across the board.


This is exactly what a progressive tax system is set up to do, not the other way around.

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July 29th, 2011, 9:25 am
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Post Re: Possible changes in Tax Code
Blueskies wrote:
The government we have now, as Wags noted, is not Capitalism. It's not even close.

Quote:
"Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of State and corporate power."

Benito Mussolini, Fascist dictator of Italy

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July 29th, 2011, 10:46 am
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Post Re: Possible changes in Tax Code
slybri19 wrote:
The flat tax is the only way to go. Most people talk about 12%, but I would prefer a 15% rate until we decrease our debt. In conjunction with this, I'm in favor of eliminating the social security tax cap at $106K or so. Make it unlimited like MediCare is, so the ricjh pay more. Furthermore, increase the standard deduction to $10K for each dependent, but eliminate the EIC. This way, the poor won't have to pay, but they won't get extra back either. But best of all, there would no longer be a need to pay 60,000 IRS employees and their benefits. It's a win-win across the board.



I'm with Sly...


August 1st, 2011, 1:37 pm
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Post Re: Possible changes in Tax Code
wjb21ndtown wrote:
slybri19 wrote:
The flat tax is the only way to go. Most people talk about 12%, but I would prefer a 15% rate until we decrease our debt. In conjunction with this, I'm in favor of eliminating the social security tax cap at $106K or so. Make it unlimited like MediCare is, so the ricjh pay more. Furthermore, increase the standard deduction to $10K for each dependent, but eliminate the EIC. This way, the poor won't have to pay, but they won't get extra back either. But best of all, there would no longer be a need to pay 60,000 IRS employees and their benefits. It's a win-win across the board.



I'm with Sly...


I'm game as well, though I would prefer to go to a national sales tax instead. Either way, this would be a HUGE improvement.

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August 1st, 2011, 2:07 pm
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Post Re: Possible changes in Tax Code
Here is the thing with taxes, we are fine on the revenue side with somewhere between 15-20% of our GDP collected in taxes (almost 1 for every 5 dollars). You will find this number consistent for the past 70 years.

Problem is on the spending side which is out of control and has been just getting worse and worse.

I'd love to simplify the tax code and even it out, either as a sales tax or flat tax. Problem is, that doesn't solve the problem.

This country, quite frankly, simply needs to start hiring (or electing) folks that are going to start spending less than they are taking in and pay down the debt.

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August 1st, 2011, 2:20 pm
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Post Re: Possible changes in Tax Code
Blueskies wrote:
Anyway, do you really wanna have this discussion, Pablo?


Still waiting Blueskies. Here are some stats why we wait to have this discussion. The top 1% of income earners pay more in income taxes than the bottom 95% COMBINED (I think this stat also goes a long way to address Wags initial concern).

On the flipside, the bottom 40% pay ZERO in federal income taxes (actually I've heard this number is now approaching 50%). In reality, it is just the reverse as they collect 4% of the total federal tax returns.

Also, for those of you who rip on corporations and what they don't pay - I think you are missing a lot of the data. For example, don't forget state corporate tax rates which takes our corporate income tax rate nearly to 40% - try finding many countries even coming close to this number (most are half or less including Canada at less than 17%).

Lets throw in the 2013 tax increases, thank you Obama Healthcare and the expiring Bush tax cuts, and the high income earners get fleeced at even higher rates.

Now I certainly look forward to a real discussion using real facts and figures Blueskies.

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August 1st, 2011, 2:41 pm
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Post Re: Possible changes in Tax Code
Pablo wrote:
Here is the thing with taxes, we are fine on the revenue side with somewhere between 15-20% of our GDP collected in taxes (almost 1 for every 5 dollars). You will find this number consistent for the past 70 years.

Problem is on the spending side which is out of control and has been just getting worse and worse.

I'd love to simplify the tax code and even it out, either as a sales tax or flat tax. Problem is, that doesn't solve the problem.

This country, quite frankly, simply needs to start hiring (or electing) folks that are going to start spending less than they are taking in and pay down the debt.


It is a way to save a large portion of $13.3 billions the IRS has in it's budget (I recognize not all of it would be saved, most could). I actually think the tax code is a symptom of the issue you pointed out. Overly complicated and bureaucratic agencies that cannot find an efficient way to do business because they have been given no reason to as their budgets keep getting larger. While maybe the revenue side doesn't get fixed (I actually think that Sly would agree as well), it is the model of the type of changes needed to reform these agencies and trim their budgets.

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August 1st, 2011, 3:43 pm
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Post Re: Possible changes in Tax Code
Quote:
Still waiting Blueskies.


Sorry. Been too busy working 12 hr days.

Quote:
I'd love to simplify the tax code and even it out, either as a sales tax or flat tax. Problem is, that doesn't solve the problem.


No, we simply spend too much. However, altering the tax code may allow our economy to grow again, which would lead to higher revenues. So it is part of the problem, albeit a minor part.

Quote:
This is exactly what a progressive tax system is set up to do, not the other way around.


Your numbers don't mean anything here because you're not looking at the big picture.

It's like, if we all ate a buffet, and there was a fat guy and he paid $20 for a plate, and we all paid $5. Sure, he's paying more, but if he eats $80 worth of food and we eat $3 worth of food, who's really making out?

There is a myth on both sides of the political isle that big government and big business/the ultra rich are enemies. They are not. This is the biggest myth in the world, and it lets our crooked system continue.

Big government and "power elite" are friends. They do not support libertarians like Ron Paul because they do not want a small government. They pretend. But they do not.

Who makes out when the government gives Lockheed Martin billion dollar contracts? The average joe or the rich hedge fund manager that owns LMT?

Who makes out more when the government cuts a check to buy prescription drugs for a poor elderly couple? The couple that needs the drugs just to live, or the rich Pfizer execs who drive $80k Mercedes Benz because they grossly overcharge for their drugs?

Theres a myth that's pervasive in leftist politics: that capitalism redirects money to the top. It is does not. This is a myth. Go read Adam Smith.

In a perfectly free market system the profits for all business are...*drum roll*..$0. Yes $0. In perfect competition, no one should make any money except their wages.

The only way businesses make any money is through monopoly power. Big businesses WANT more regulation, because it decreases competition, increases their monopoly power, and increases their profits. Go find any major piece of regulation legislation, then look it up. 99 times out of 100 it was written by lobbyists paid for by major corporations.

The government exists to funnel money from the middle class to the top. We give welfare benefits to the poor so that they don't riot. It's easier to pay them $12k a year than to have to deal with them breaking into our homes.

But go ahead. Keep believing that the government exists to funnel money from the rich to the poor. It's no different than disillusioned liberals who think that if we only gave the government more power they could deal with those evil businesses.


August 1st, 2011, 11:46 pm
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Post Re: Possible changes in Tax Code
I mean seriously.

The top 1% has 90% of the countries wealth. They control all the major institutions in society. The IRS and the DOJ and the CBO aren't run by average Joe $38k a year with parents that worked the line. They control society. There are only two political parties. They control the media so they can control who gets nominated. Even then, they can easily buy off the politicians. Pretty much every major official that has worked in the Treasury department for the last 30 years was once a Goldman Sachs employee. Every FDA official worked/works after they retire for big Pharma. The fox is in charge of the hen house.

Even then, if there was some great divide here, they went to the same schools, had the same friends, intermarried and go to the same cocktail parties.

If they wanted the government to be smaller it would be. That's all that really needs to be said.

As George Carlin stated, "The table is titled; the game is rigged. But no one seems to notice, nobody seems to care.."

I am completely and utterly baffled that people continue to buy into this myth that the government and the elites are somehow counterbalances. It truly boggles my mind.

Is it a form of cognitive dissonance? Are people unwilling to let themselves see the truth? Maybe, I don't know.


August 1st, 2011, 11:59 pm
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Post Re: Possible changes in Tax Code
Blueskies wrote:
Is it a form of cognitive dissonance? Are people unwilling to let themselves see the truth? Maybe, I don't know.
This line of 'logic' always amuses. When you say people are unwilling to see the truth, do you mean me? Or, you?

It's up there with the question "Why can't you be more open minded?" (When they really mean "Why won't you see things my way?") My retort is usually, "No, you need to be more open minded and see things my way."

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Climate Change - happening every second, of every minute of every day ever since the world was created. Needless to say it's man's fault.


August 2nd, 2011, 7:37 am
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