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 Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity. 
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Post Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.
WarEr4Christ wrote:
2 Timothy 3:1-7, “But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people. 6 They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over gullible women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, 7 always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth.


I'd say Timothy has today's mankind nailed.


August 16th, 2012, 9:17 am
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Post Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.
BillySims wrote:
WarEr4Christ wrote:
2 Timothy 3:1-7, “But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people. 6 They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over gullible women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, 7 always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth.


I'd say Timothy has today's mankind nailed.


If you're writing a story about the end of days, don't you kind of need to describe "why" it would be happening... e.g. how "bad" things are? IMO, if you think that quote describes today's mankind, I pretty much feel sorry for you. I disagree that describes today's mankind, and especially any statement that says mankind is lesser now than ever. I believe reality is the opposite... smarter, healthier, happier, more generous, more comfortable, more peaceful... than almost any time in the past.

The last comment trashing knowledge is one of the classic, fundamental characteristics of a cult ... denying knowledge and anything outside of the "truth" the cult know/represents. But in reality, "true truth" shouldn't fear or criticize learning at all ... because all learning would lead to it... if it truly is the truth.


August 16th, 2012, 7:41 pm
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Post Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.
I.E. wrote:
BillySims wrote:
WarEr4Christ wrote:
2 Timothy 3:1-7, “But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people. 6 They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over gullible women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, 7 always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth.


I'd say Timothy has today's mankind nailed.


If you're writing a story about the end of days, don't you kind of need to describe "why" it would be happening... e.g. how "bad" things are? IMO, if you think that quote describes today's mankind, I pretty much feel sorry for you. I disagree that describes today's mankind, and especially any statement that says mankind is lesser now than ever. I believe reality is the opposite... smarter, healthier, happier, more generous, more comfortable, more peaceful... than almost any time in the past.

The last comment trashing knowledge is one of the classic, fundamental characteristics of a cult ... denying knowledge and anything outside of the "truth" the cult know/represents. But in reality, "true truth" shouldn't fear or criticize learning at all ... because all learning would lead to it... if it truly is the truth.


Don't feel sorry for me. I feel sorry for you. Because you are just too smart to believe the truth. That's called pride. And pride comes before a fall.


August 16th, 2012, 8:07 pm
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Post Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.
WarER - I appreciate your ealier sentiments expressed in this thread, which I have not yet replied to (sorry). Obviously, I think your sentiments are somewhat misguided and unlikely to have any result - but I appreciate that, for you, this is a big thing and I appreciate the kindness behind it.

Billy - I think that last post is pretty pathetic.


August 17th, 2012, 4:43 am
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Post Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.
UK Lion wrote:
WarER - I appreciate your ealier sentiments expressed in this thread, which I have not yet replied to (sorry). Obviously, I think your sentiments are somewhat misguided and unlikely to have any result - but I appreciate that, for you, this is a big thing and I appreciate the kindness behind it.

Billy - I think that last post is pretty pathetic.


How is what I wrote pathetic? I do feel sorry for people that let their education level blind them to the real truth. The only truth they will ever let themselves see is the truth that they can find in some lab experiment. If that sentiment is pathetic, then, I guess I am pathetic.


August 17th, 2012, 8:55 am
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Post Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.
Billy and UK Lion....

There is truth to what both of you say.

UK - I don't think there is denying that in today's global society there are many truths both hidden and falsified by people in power due to political or greed reasons. Politics have existed since the first two cavemen discussed who got to draw pictures on the wall, but at no time in history have they been so deeply involved in day to day life as today. And at no time in history has politics been as corrupt as it is now, all around the world.
However, I agree that the seeking of the truth, whatever it may be, should never be quelled, questioned or diminished in any way.

Billy - I am a Christian, but that doesn't make me (or you) absolutely right. It is faith, Billy. It's what we believe, but it doesn't automatically make it truth. My young ones believe in Santa Claus, does it make it truth? For them, yes, it is absolutely true. For you? For me? No.

All that said, what was written in 2 Timothy is pretty intriguing considering how long ago it was written and the scope that it covers. I think it is pretty prophetic.

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August 17th, 2012, 11:00 am
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Post Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.
BillySims wrote:
WarEr4Christ wrote:
2 Timothy 3:1-7, “But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people. 6 They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over gullible women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, 7 always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth.


I'd say Timothy has today's mankind nailed.


I'd say, with such generalities, Timothy has mankind nailed down regardless of century/generation. I mean, didn't they say the same thing about the people of during the time of Moses?

If you are wanting to connect such a general statement to modern times then you are simply ingnorning man's inherent nature to fit into wanting to believe that the end of days is near. In fact, I think one could easily argue that we are perhaps much further from this statement than we have ever been in history. And if you look at that from this sort of objectivity, we are then further away from the "end of days" then ever if logic follows.

Let's pick apart a few pieces that are more specific...

disobedient to their parents - are we really more diobedient to our parents? I've seen such an uptick in parental care in the last 10-20 years (the sandwich generation).

gullible women - females are less gullible than at any time in history. They are more on equal terms with men than anytime in history.

This is another example if you really want to see something you will, however, if you step back and objectively examine it in an unbiased fashion the "truth" lies elsewhere.

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August 17th, 2012, 11:21 am
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Post Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.
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WarER - I appreciate your ealier sentiments expressed in this thread, which I have not yet replied to (sorry). Obviously, I think your sentiments are somewhat misguided and unlikely to have any result - but I appreciate that, for you, this is a big thing and I appreciate the kindness behind it.


UK thanks for the acknowledgment, I had wondered if you'd seen it, or if it had even affected you, as you didn't respond. If you should care to respond, I would be more than happy to read it.

In response to your observations I can only say that we are limited by perspective. As I have tried to communicate on several occasions, and probably miserably so, I know what I know, not because I've read it, or seen it, but done it. My relationship with the Lord is a thing of experience. I struggle in the effort to share that with you and any who would read my thoughts, because it is my personal story. Therefore, whoever reads my thoughts, has no skin in the game, and can not be impacted by the drama of my life in the moments that the Lord came through. It would be like reading a movie script, yeah it's good or bad, but meh, so what. Can you imagine the fear, and drama in my life the moment I realized that during a training exercise at 2 a.m. on a full moon night, that I was standing in the middle of an active mine field. Can you taste the bile that piles up in the back of your throat? Or how about that tightening in the back of your shorts that comes from that moment of terror realizing that this could be it, in a very violent fashion? All you can do is read my story, and hear my words and react to it, but you can't feel it.

This is what I have been trying to say and share from the beginning. A relationship with Christ is experiencial (not sure if that's a word). It's a journey, you walk and endure hardships and challenges, victories and failures as you learn to walk as He walked. I've heard it said that man was inherantly born with a God sized hole in his psyche. We are never satisfied until we fill it with something. It's a predesigned hole and it only fits one thing, but that doesn't stop us from attempting to fill it with all sorts of idols. (anything that takes precedence over God is an idol.)

To the best of my ability I have tried to reach out to you, Pablo, and Eric, in hopes that the love I have for y'all in the Lord, would demonstrate that I'm not a fool, nor a lunatic, nor a cult member. I am a man who knows what he's talking about, and I'm trying to share it through limited communicative abilities.

Where people would ask me to look backwards to debate those rabbits in the rear view mirror, I would like to call your attention to the here an now. What about Jesus now? What about making the attempt to reach out and ask Him to reveal himself to you now? IF he does not exist as some have assumed, then what is the danger? It's just words going into the emptiness of the space time continuum right? But IF he does exist, and you honestly seek him, is there fear that you might find him? I don't ask this to ridicule anyone, I ask because I can fully understand to take that giant leap in faith, means that the wonderfully crafted lives that we've built, and the comfort levels we've fashioned for ourselves, may just have to be destroyed in order to pursue that relationship, and I believe that is what scares the hell out of some people. We (humanity) can't and/or won't make the attempt, because the possibility exists that life as we know it will be radically changed, and we're quite comfortable with our known boundaries.

But let me encourage you with all of my heart, take the step, you won't be sorry!

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August 17th, 2012, 1:44 pm
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Post Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.
Pablo wrote:
BillySims wrote:
WarEr4Christ wrote:
2 Timothy 3:1-7, “But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people. 6 They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over gullible women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, 7 always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth.


I'd say Timothy has today's mankind nailed.


I'd say, with such generalities, Timothy has mankind nailed down regardless of century/generation. I mean, didn't they say the same thing about the people of during the time of Moses?

If you are wanting to connect such a general statement to modern times then you are simply ingnorning man's inherent nature to fit into wanting to believe that the end of days is near. In fact, I think one could easily argue that we are perhaps much further from this statement than we have ever been in history. And if you look at that from this sort of objectivity, we are then further away from the "end of days" then ever if logic follows.

Let's pick apart a few pieces that are more specific...

disobedient to their parents - are we really more diobedient to our parents? I've seen such an uptick in parental care in the last 10-20 years (the sandwich generation).

gullible women - females are less gullible than at any time in history. They are more on equal terms with men than anytime in history.

This is another example if you really want to see something you will, however, if you step back and objectively examine it in an unbiased fashion the "truth" lies elsewhere.


By "uptick in parental care" do you mean children in their 50s taking care of their parents in their 70'-80's?

And in re: equal treatment of women -
"More equal" doesn't mean more moral. Women are at an all-time low on the moral compass. They're cheating more on their spouses, having sex with their students, getting divorced for younger men (this use to be a staple of mid-life crisis men, but it's becoming a staple of mid-life crisis women too), seeking money over love, seeking superficial looks over long-term stability... IMO society is going down hill in a big, big way.


August 17th, 2012, 2:58 pm
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Post Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.
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And in re: equal treatment of women -
"More equal" doesn't mean more moral. Women are at an all-time low on the moral compass. They're cheating more on their spouses, having sex with their students, getting divorced for younger men (this use to be a staple of mid-life crisis men, but it's becoming a staple of mid-life crisis women too), seeking money over love, seeking superficial looks over long-term stability... IMO society is going down hill in a big, big way.



Im trying to stay out of the theology discussions for a while but i simply could not agree with this statment more!

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August 17th, 2012, 3:11 pm
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Post Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.
regularjoe12 wrote:
Quote:
And in re: equal treatment of women -
"More equal" doesn't mean more moral. Women are at an all-time low on the moral compass. They're cheating more on their spouses, having sex with their students, getting divorced for younger men (this use to be a staple of mid-life crisis men, but it's becoming a staple of mid-life crisis women too), seeking money over love, seeking superficial looks over long-term stability... IMO society is going down hill in a big, big way.



Im trying to stay out of the theology discussions for a while but i simply could not agree with this statment more!


You can agree with this statement, but it has nothing to do with the passage I was talking about. It was about how men would gain control over "gullible women" - it had nothing to do with the morals of women so the whole point is off base. Now if Timohty was saying that the morals of women would sink - then we would be onto something.

Women are less gullible than ever. In fact, they have equal rights and are more on equal grounds with men than ever. Now, this likely helps lead to the moral decay that you chipped in with but that isn't the circumstance Timothy claims would be a sign of the "end of days".

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August 17th, 2012, 3:25 pm
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Post Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.
Pablo wrote:
regularjoe12 wrote:
Quote:
And in re: equal treatment of women -
"More equal" doesn't mean more moral. Women are at an all-time low on the moral compass. They're cheating more on their spouses, having sex with their students, getting divorced for younger men (this use to be a staple of mid-life crisis men, but it's becoming a staple of mid-life crisis women too), seeking money over love, seeking superficial looks over long-term stability... IMO society is going down hill in a big, big way.



Im trying to stay out of the theology discussions for a while but i simply could not agree with this statment more!


You can agree with this statement, but it has nothing to do with the passage I was talking about. It was about how men would gain control over "gullible women" - it had nothing to do with the morals of women so the whole point is off base. Now if Timohty was saying that the morals of women would sink - then we would be onto something.

Women are less gullible than ever. In fact, they have equal rights and are more on equal grounds with men than ever. Now, this likely helps lead to the moral decay that you chipped in with but that isn't the circumstance Timothy claims would be a sign of the "end of days".


It depends what you mean by "less gullible." You could easily argue that society has made them gullible by making them believe that short-term looks are better than long-term prosperity, and that working 40-60 hours per week is "more prestigious" than raising your family. Both of those things sound pretty damn gullible to me, but they're prevalent in this day and age.


August 17th, 2012, 3:27 pm
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Post Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.
BillySims wrote:
How is what I wrote pathetic? I do feel sorry for people that let their education level blind them to the real truth. The only truth they will ever let themselves see is the truth that they can find in some lab experiment. If that sentiment is pathetic, then, I guess I am pathetic.

I understand why you believe what you believe. I don't agree with that, but I understand and respect that.

Calling someone blind and prideful, just because they do not share your beliefs, is IMO pretty poor form. It is, IMO, the start of intolerance. That's the bit I had a problem with.


August 17th, 2012, 3:41 pm
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Post Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.
WarEr4Christ wrote:
UK thanks for the acknowledgment, I had wondered if you'd seen it, or if it had even affected you, as you didn't respond. If you should care to respond, I would be more than happy to read it.

Like I said, I honestly have very little expectation that you will get me round to your way of thinking. Your faith is something I am extremely unlikely to share. As such, I think the posts and the prayer that you spend your time on with respect to me are likely a bit of a waste of your time if the goal is to bring me round!

But, like I said, I appreciate that in the belief system that you hold putting that effort in is one of the most important things you can do. So I appreciate the kindness that you doing it demonstrates. And I appreciate the way you go about it (ie very non-judgmentally).

I disagree with you on a lot (as a read through this forum would undoubtedly show!), but I am convinced you are a good and sincere man.


August 17th, 2012, 3:47 pm
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Post Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.
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Like I said, I honestly have very little expectation that you will get me round to your way of thinking. Your faith is something I am extremely unlikely to share. As such, I think the posts and the prayer that you spend your time on with respect to me are likely a bit of a waste of your time if the goal is to bring me round!


UK: I got to admit ya got me smiling! The only thing I can say in response is that if the results were left up to me, then we know what the outcome would be. I'd have all of you fellars under my mind control, but again that's not the case. It is the Lord who draws a man, and the only thing I've ever tried to do is arrange the meeting. Having said that, you might consider it wasted time, but because of the love in the Lord that I have for you and others here, I'm willing to sacrifice on your behalf. If you will indulge me, I'd like to share with you a piece of Scripture that is kind of a mission statement for me.

Mark 2: 1-5, "A few days later, when Jesus again entered Capernaum, the people heard that he had come home. 2 They gathered in such large numbers that there was no room left, not even outside the door, and he preached the word to them. 3 Some men came, bringing to him a paralyzed man, carried by four of them. 4 Since they could not get him to Jesus because of the crowd, they made an opening in the roof above Jesus by digging through it and then lowered the mat the man was lying on. 5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralyzed man, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”

This is how I see you guys, you are the one who is being carried. You may not want to go, but the love I have for you because of what the Lord has asked me to do is stronger than that. So as it stands I am choosing to carry you, Pablo, and Eric regardless of the sacrifice, and I'm bring y'all to the feet of Christ, and not letting any obstruction get in my way. So, in short, the duty is mine to do the work but the results are His, and it will be Him who draws you, heals you, and reveals Himself to you. So I'll keep doing what I do, and I'll hope that others on here who believe, will join me and take a corner.

Just think the chance exists that we could be sitting around for eternity, drinking coffee from the He Brew's lounge, chatting about all the discussions we used to have.... :D At least that's what I'm [-o< for.....

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August 17th, 2012, 4:28 pm
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