View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently September 14th, 2014, 10:08 pm



Reply to topic  [ 85 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
 The War of Gog and Magog...Revisited. 
Author Message
NFL Veteran

Joined: November 28th, 2007, 12:50 pm
Posts: 1360
Location: Newport Beach, Ca
Post Re: The War of Gog and Magog...Revisited.
Touchdown Jesus wrote:
=D> Awesome. That guy always cracks me up.

In all seriousness though, this is a valid point. Claiming something we don't understand or can't explain is due to God is really no different from someone claiming that it's aliens or anything else. There's no hard evidence to support any of it. It's all anecdotal and experiential "proof" and people claim to "know" that what they say is true. I don't doubt the sincerity of people's beliefs. I'm sure that they truly believe that they are correct and/or that their beliefs are the correct ones. But, I always come back to the same thought: throughout history, there have been millions of people who have believed in thousands of gods, religions, belief systems, etc. They've all had their own versions of some type of end of days/salvation/judgement day/etc. Thus far, all of them have been wrong (since we're all still here and the world hasn't come to an end). So, knowing that, how can anyone be so certain that their current belief system/religion/spirituality/etc. is right and all the others are/were wrong? What's so special or different about your belief system that makes it different?

I don't say that with the intent of being disrespectful. I say it with the intent of spurring thoughtfulness and introspection. I think if you logically examine any belief system, you will see that it doesn't hold up to logical scrutiny. That's inherent, because a belief doesn't require logic. It simply requires belief/faith. So, once we understand that, it allows us to be much more reasonable about our belief system. Pointing this lens at myself, I don't claim to know for sure that I'm right. I don't know. My current view is that I don't know if there is a god or not. There might be. I also don't know if christianity is right or wrong (in terms of the story of what will happen in the world). Same goes for hinduism, buddhism, atheism (or any other ism). In my opinion, if we all could just admit that none of us knows with 100% certainty, a lot of our problems in life and society could start to be resolved. Then again, I could be wrong....


I'm with you on all of this. A touch of skepticism has always served me well.

I truly enjoy when these posts happen and have a big laugh, but not because I think these biblical things could never happen, it's because the way these ideas are constructed are just crazy. The maneuvering these crackpots have to do to make these theories work is often times a work of art all in their own.


July 31st, 2014, 11:25 am
Profile
Fair Weather Fan

Joined: July 24th, 2014, 1:03 pm
Posts: 6
Post Re: The War of Gog and Magog...Revisited.
TDJ,

You're treading on shaky ground because 1. you don't believe the proof you already have, (look around: Earth and all living things are TOO COMPLEX to originate from "nothing" or a single cell organism) 2. Regardless of Faith or Religion, the SPIRITUAL can not be explained even by Scientists or the people who study it. I'm not looking for a verbal fight, but you are staunchly entrenched in your own belief statements, that are based upon limited information. There are 2 sides of "humanity," physical and spiritual. America is one of the few nations that struggles with this reality.

Many Native people's already know of the Spiritual, and they respect it GREATLY. But we're so "civilized" that we can't believe it because we don't have the truth. I don't know if hypocritical would be the word to use in this sense, but what would you call someone who is just as entrenched in their beliefs just on the other side of the coin? Billy has stated his thoughts, and you're picking him apart. But yet, you're on the other side of that coin making your claims, without any evidence that the Spiritual DOESN'T exist. Isn't it the same, just a difference in perspective?

For the record; Jews and Early Christians understood the 3 part man and ministered accordingly. Then RELIGION (man made rules and regulation of worship) got in the way and corrupted many things. Once you're able to see the Spiritual, many things present themselves with great clarity, and evidence that you can not put into words. Therefore, the only avenue of explanation is "experiential." Opening your eyes is equal parts a choice, as well as being called. If you are being called and reject it, you'll remain blind. If you are being called and choose to see, the world opens up and the light floods in. But if you aren't being called, even though you're looking, you're still going to be blind.

Hope that makes sense.


July 31st, 2014, 12:55 pm
Profile
Fair Weather Fan

Joined: July 24th, 2014, 1:03 pm
Posts: 6
Post Re: The War of Gog and Magog...Revisited.
For the record, the Book of Daniel goes a LONG way in describing a lot of the end times stuff as we know it. I think Chpt. 9 is the specific spot but I could be wrong.

Obama is not the anti-Christ, because he hasn't been revealed yet. There are several things that need to happen for that to come true. However, Obama is a forerunner, in that he's setting the stage. America was/is the last brick in the wall. Our independence as a nation has kept us from falling in line with the rest of the world for a long time. His paradigm shift of Transformation of this country is not meant for this generation at all. We're expendable! It is for our children and those that follow them. The communist mantra is to teach the children, and you'll have a communist for life. Schools, government programs, and all kinds of things have been put into play that are creating a dependency upon the government. That forces the system to crash at some point because it's NOT SUSTAINABLE. This may have to happen on a global scale, so that turmoil, hatred, wars, starvation, disease, and all that becomes so terrible, that the person who shows up on the scene with the answers, will be given absolute power.

As I referenced earlier; Hitler did it in Germany, and ultimately killed his peers, took power, and murdered millions of people. But for the German people, he was a "savior" because he rescued Germany from depression, returned the lifestyle and respect they wanted, and led them to prosperity. But his thousand year Reich didn't last quite that long now did it? See how the stage is being set? We've got to go down to absolute world turmoil first, before the man with the plan can show up.


July 31st, 2014, 1:02 pm
Profile
QB Coach
User avatar

Joined: August 21st, 2005, 3:36 am
Posts: 3128
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Post Re: The War of Gog and Magog...Revisited.
W4CLions wrote:
TDJ,

You're treading on shaky ground because 1. you don't believe the proof you already have, (look around: Earth and all living things are TOO COMPLEX to originate from "nothing" or a single cell organism) 2. Regardless of Faith or Religion, the SPIRITUAL can not be explained even by Scientists or the people who study it. I'm not looking for a verbal fight, but you are staunchly entrenched in your own belief statements, that are based upon limited information. There are 2 sides of "humanity," physical and spiritual. America is one of the few nations that struggles with this reality.

Many Native people's already know of the Spiritual, and they respect it GREATLY. But we're so "civilized" that we can't believe it because we don't have the truth. I don't know if hypocritical would be the word to use in this sense, but what would you call someone who is just as entrenched in their beliefs just on the other side of the coin? Billy has stated his thoughts, and you're picking him apart. But yet, you're on the other side of that coin making your claims, without any evidence that the Spiritual DOESN'T exist. Isn't it the same, just a difference in perspective?

For the record; Jews and Early Christians understood the 3 part man and ministered accordingly. Then RELIGION (man made rules and regulation of worship) got in the way and corrupted many things. Once you're able to see the Spiritual, many things present themselves with great clarity, and evidence that you can not put into words. Therefore, the only avenue of explanation is "experiential." Opening your eyes is equal parts a choice, as well as being called. If you are being called and reject it, you'll remain blind. If you are being called and choose to see, the world opens up and the light floods in. But if you aren't being called, even though you're looking, you're still going to be blind.

Hope that makes sense.

Entrenched? Hardly. I explicitly said that I don't know if my opinion is correct. Numerous times on here I've said that I don't know for sure if my opinion is right. I've never said I am certain. Me thinks you may need to revisit the definition of entrenched before you start throwing that word around.

As for your statements, I can take almost everything you said and use the exact same argument back against you. You claim I don't believe the proof that's all around, yet you routinely dismiss scientific evidence. What's the bible verse: something about seeing the speck of dust in your brother's eye while ignoring the plank in your own eye? Yeah that one.

Let's go point by point:

1. You say: "Earth and all living things are TOO COMPLEX to originate from "nothing" or a single cell organism". How do you know? Based on what? Hundreds of years ago, science couldn't explain anything about the origins of the earth and all living things. But today, they can explain a lot. Almost all of it. You are the one making absolute statements that something definitely is too complex to be a certain way, yet you don't offer any proof. Scientists are testing and proving (and disproving) things every day, and as their understanding progresses, theories and hypotheses are confirmed or refuted/adjusted. I'm not the one claiming to know exactly where everything came from. Neither does the overall scientific community. But they do have a certain amount of evidence and things have been repeatedly achieved via such testing, so they can confirm some things' origins. For those that are not yet explainable, hypotheses are developed and put forth, and then they are tested. Again, not claiming absolute knowledge. Only claiming knowledge of those things that have been proven. I ask you: how do you know, with absolute certainty, that your statement is true?

2. I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you saying that there are phenomena that can't be explained by science? If so, I agree. There are absolutely things that have occurred that are not yet explainable. Those things are largely being researched and attempts are being made to understand and explain them. If I'm not on the right track here, please explain exactly what you mean.

As for Billy, I didn't pick him apart. He posted information, and I gave my opinion of that information. I didn't say he was wrong. I said the information he posted seems crazy. And in the cases where the information was referring to factually verifiable data and that data contradicted what was being claimed, I pointed that out. What he posted is no different from what Blueskies wrote, it's just the opposite side of the issue. Neither side has any real evidence to support their argument. Just as Blueskies' statement was crazy, so was the information Billy presented.

Here's the bottom line: if a person makes a claim about something, the burden of proof is on that person to present evidence to support it. It's not up to anyone else to prove is doesn't exist. That's not how things work. That would be like me claiming I have x-ray vision, and then when you say that's ridiculous, I tell you to prove I don't. It wouldn't be up to you to prove I don't have it. It would be up to me to prove that I do. Or to make it even simpler, when you get pulled over and the cop asks for your license, does he have to prove that you don't have one? Or do you have to prove that you do have one? By driving the car, you are inherently claiming that you are licensed to operate the vehicle, and the burden of proof is on you to show that you are.

As for the native peoples knowing of the spiritual, so what? There are many native beliefs that were flat out wrong too. For example, the Cherokee belief that the first two people were brother and sister, and that the brother hit his sister with a fish and told her to multiply. Following this, she gave birth to a child every seven days and soon there were too many people, so women were then forced to have just one child every year. Clearly this is impossible, but hey, since the natives believed it, why not?

Once again, I'm not claiming to know for sure that I'm right. The only things I claim to be sure of are those which the scientific community has been able to prove. For example: the earth is indeed round, and the the earth revolves around the sun (not the other way around, as was once hypothesized).

In the end, this is largely a pointless discussion. You believe what you believe because of your faith. It's not based on facts or data. It's based on your faith and your experiences. What I think you fail to realize is that anyone can claim the opposite of what you do citing the very same things that you do. Anyone can say they've personally experienced something and thus they know it to be true, and if you don't believe them then you simply are choosing not to open yourself to that experience as well. It goes both ways amigo...

_________________
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." - John Adams

“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.” - Neil deGrasse Tyson


July 31st, 2014, 3:04 pm
Profile
Hall of Fame Player
User avatar

Joined: May 7th, 2005, 3:25 pm
Posts: 7352
Location: Earth/Sagittarius Dwarf Galaxy
Post Re: The War of Gog and Magog...Revisited.
Well, I posted this thread with origional post giving the scriptural description of what will happen. I have said all along that the prophecies will be fulfilled to the T. I also said any scenarios I envision along the way may or may not be proven right or wrong. I have never claimed to be a prophet. But, I posted this thread with the hopes that everyone who reads it, would remember the premise. I truly believe it will be fulfilled in our lifetimes. Israel returning to nation status is the key to this. So, when you see it happen on your TV, you will know it for what it is. And you might finally end your disbelief.


July 31st, 2014, 5:45 pm
Profile
Hall of Fame Player
User avatar

Joined: May 7th, 2005, 3:25 pm
Posts: 7352
Location: Earth/Sagittarius Dwarf Galaxy
Post Re: The War of Gog and Magog...Revisited.
P.S. I don't really care if any of you believe the prophecy right now. As long as you remember it. The updates I post are simply possible scenarios that I would like to discuss. I am willing to be called a crackpot if that makes you feel better. I care more about the destiny of your eternal souls more than I care about my current reputation. Even if you don't care about your soul.


July 31st, 2014, 6:03 pm
Profile
QB Coach
User avatar

Joined: August 21st, 2005, 3:36 am
Posts: 3128
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Post Re: The War of Gog and Magog...Revisited.
BillySims wrote:
P.S. I don't really care if any of you believe the prophecy right now. As long as you remember it. The updates I post are simply possible scenarios that I would like to discuss. I am willing to be called a crackpot if that makes you feel better. I care more about the destiny of your eternal souls more than I care about my current reputation. Even if you don't care about your soul.

That's fine, and I appreciate the kind thoughts. I'm not trying to call anyone a crackpot, so I apologize if that's what I've done. My main questions are what I wrote previously: since there have been millions of people who believed in thousands of different gods, religions, faiths, etc, and they have all been wrong, what is it about your faith that makes you different? What is it about our beliefs that are different from every previous belief system? Why is yours right when theirs were wrong?

I don't ask that to bring yours down. I'm genuinely curious. I struggle to understand how anyone, with the knowledge that all previous beliefs have been wrong, can be so certain that their current belief system is correct. I hope that's not offensive.

_________________
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." - John Adams

“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.” - Neil deGrasse Tyson


July 31st, 2014, 6:29 pm
Profile
Hall of Fame Player
User avatar

Joined: May 7th, 2005, 3:25 pm
Posts: 7352
Location: Earth/Sagittarius Dwarf Galaxy
Post Re: The War of Gog and Magog...Revisited.
Touchdown Jesus wrote:
BillySims wrote:
P.S. I don't really care if any of you believe the prophecy right now. As long as you remember it. The updates I post are simply possible scenarios that I would like to discuss. I am willing to be called a crackpot if that makes you feel better. I care more about the destiny of your eternal souls more than I care about my current reputation. Even if you don't care about your soul.

That's fine, and I appreciate the kind thoughts. I'm not trying to call anyone a crackpot, so I apologize if that's what I've done. My main questions are what I wrote previously: since there have been millions of people who believed in thousands of different gods, religions, faiths, etc, and they have all been wrong, what is it about your faith that makes you different? What is it about our beliefs that are different from every previous belief system? Why is yours right when theirs were wrong?

I don't ask that to bring yours down. I'm genuinely curious. I struggle to understand how anyone, with the knowledge that all previous beliefs have been wrong, can be so certain that their current belief system is correct. I hope that's not offensive.


That's a fair question.

Well, for starters. Jesus predicted that Israel would be defeated and exiled from it's homeland. And after a long period of time, would be brought back to it's homeland and become a nation again in Mathew chapter 24 the parable of the fig tree. On May 28, 1948 Israel became a nation again nearly 2000 years after it ceased to be a nation. Exactly as Jesus predicted.
Also, Christianity is not a religion. It is a personal relationship with the creator GOD.

Religions teach you that if you follow it's teachings, you might be able to enter paradise/utopia/whatever they want to call heaven. But, they give no assurances. In no religion, did the prophet or diety character take all the sins of the world that would ever be committed onto himself as a scape goat, so that he could absolve us of our sins for anyone that asks, and guarantee us entry into heaven. Jesus did.


July 31st, 2014, 10:55 pm
Profile
QB Coach
User avatar

Joined: August 21st, 2005, 3:36 am
Posts: 3128
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Post Re: The War of Gog and Magog...Revisited.
BillySims wrote:
That's a fair question.

Well, for starters. Jesus predicted that Israel would be defeated and exiled from it's homeland. And after a long period of time, would be brought back to it's homeland and become a nation again in Mathew chapter 24 the parable of the fig tree. On May 28, 1948 Israel became a nation again nearly 2000 years after it ceased to be a nation. Exactly as Jesus predicted.
Also, Christianity is not a religion. It is a personal relationship with the creator GOD.

Religions teach you that if you follow it's teachings, you might be able to enter paradise/utopia/whatever they want to call heaven. But, they give no assurances. In no religion, did the prophet or diety character take all the sins of the world that would ever be committed onto himself as a scape goat, so that he could absolve us of our sins for anyone that asks, and guarantee us entry into heaven. Jesus did.

If I'm reading this right, you're saying that a prediction about Israel and the idea that Jesus "took" the world's sins is what makes Christianity "correct". Is that right? If so, then I have an observation: what about all the things the bible says that weren't true or aren't verifiable? Are those just to be ignored? Also, the second part strikes me as kind of selfish. To me, it says that Christianity is correct (or maybe better?) because the savior in that belief system offered more for his followers than in other religions. I'm not trying to say that you personally are selfish, so I hope it doesn't come across that way. I'm trying to take an analytic view, and to me, the idea that because Jesus offered things that no other religious figure did that he is "correct" seems kind of, maybe greedy? Does that mean that Joseph Smith should be even more revered since Mormanism combines the saving of Christianity with even more stuff (your own planet, etc)? I know that probably sounds laughable, but I mean it in all seriousness.

This is just an interesting mindset for me. I like to try to understand where people are coming from, so I hope what I'm saying is not offensive in any way.

_________________
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." - John Adams

“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.” - Neil deGrasse Tyson


August 3rd, 2014, 1:20 pm
Profile
Hall of Fame Player
User avatar

Joined: May 7th, 2005, 3:25 pm
Posts: 7352
Location: Earth/Sagittarius Dwarf Galaxy
Post Re: The War of Gog and Magog...Revisited.
Touchdown Jesus wrote:
BillySims wrote:
That's a fair question.

Well, for starters. Jesus predicted that Israel would be defeated and exiled from it's homeland. And after a long period of time, would be brought back to it's homeland and become a nation again in Mathew chapter 24 the parable of the fig tree. On May 28, 1948 Israel became a nation again nearly 2000 years after it ceased to be a nation. Exactly as Jesus predicted.
Also, Christianity is not a religion. It is a personal relationship with the creator GOD.

Religions teach you that if you follow it's teachings, you might be able to enter paradise/utopia/whatever they want to call heaven. But, they give no assurances. In no religion, did the prophet or diety character take all the sins of the world that would ever be committed onto himself as a scape goat, so that he could absolve us of our sins for anyone that asks, and guarantee us entry into heaven. Jesus did.

If I'm reading this right, you're saying that a prediction about Israel and the idea that Jesus "took" the world's sins is what makes Christianity "correct". Is that right? If so, then I have an observation: what about all the things the bible says that weren't true or aren't verifiable? Are those just to be ignored? Also, the second part strikes me as kind of selfish. To me, it says that Christianity is correct (or maybe better?) because the savior in that belief system offered more for his followers than in other religions. I'm not trying to say that you personally are selfish, so I hope it doesn't come across that way. I'm trying to take an analytic view, and to me, the idea that because Jesus offered things that no other religious figure did that he is "correct" seems kind of, maybe greedy? Does that mean that Joseph Smith should be even more revered since Mormanism combines the saving of Christianity with even more stuff (your own planet, etc)? I know that probably sounds laughable, but I mean it in all seriousness.

This is just an interesting mindset for me. I like to try to understand where people are coming from, so I hope what I'm saying is not offensive in any way.


Sorry I haven't replied before now. My job hasn't allowed me to stop where I can use my laptop until now.

I am saying that fulfilled prophecy suggests the Bible is the true word of GOD. And yes about Jesus.

What has the Bible said that was/is not true? You will need to give examples of this. As for things that haven't been verified. Every now and then, an archeologist unearths something that verifies something the bible claimed but, could not be verified previously. Here is a website that describes a few discoveries that verified previously unverified events. http://www.manavai.com/articles/art1.htm

Call Christianity selfish if you want. Or, you could look at it as HEY! THIS IS DIFFERENT!!!!!!!!!! Wide is the pathway to hell. Narrow is the road to Heaven.

Joseph Smith Seen Golden plates, told his friends that if you can't see them, you are not saved. Then asked his friends if they could see the plates. LOL. Oh, and you needed a magic hat and Magic rock to be able to decript the writings on the plates. Where are these magic items today? Joseph Smith had them. Where are they now? Also, Joseph Smith believed that GOD was going to rule the world from St. Louis, MO. when he returns. In the words of Mountain Man, " Mmm Hummm!"


August 5th, 2014, 7:38 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 85 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by STSoftware.