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 What? No gun control thread? 
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Modmin Dude
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Post Re: What? No gun control thread?
m2karateman wrote:
Being perfect is one thing, but being broken to the point of ridiculousness is quite another. When it comes to something as important as this background check system, the politics MUST be removed. There should be no interpretation, no politicizing of issues. Here is a list of standards that need to be passed, nationwide, and if you don't meet them, then no right to a firearm. Anybody who is considered unstable in NYC should be considered equally as unstable in Washington, California and all other parts of the country. Information should be updated on a timely basis, and needs to be as accurate as possible. Sadly, that is not even close to being the case. The Aurora shooter is testimony to that fact, as was the VTU shooter. Both had been evaluated by mental health professionals and both were considered dangerous. Neither was denied access to firearms based on those evaluations, despite the fact that the evidence was there. Whether that information is gathered in an office, at a school or as part of a job requirement, it is information that should be used to further evaluate that person and determine if the assessment is accurate and if their state of mind is such that they pose an imminent threat to society.
Agreed. As stated above, an unfortunate side effect of the current system is the politicization of everything. Are you suggesting we wait until the system has been fixed before implementing this or any other new laws, regulations, etc? If so, then its likely nothing will get done in either of our lifetimes. If not, then question seems to be 'How to proceed?'

As I see it now, the current background system needs to be fixed by requiring all US Govt territories submit the exact same information to the database, expanding to include private transaction with the exceptions mentioned above, require DOJ to move forward with the prosecution of known offenders. This, IMO, would put in place a base, nationwide system.

As you stated, there undoubtedly will be disagreement on the state / territory level of what constitutes 'unstable', dangerous, etc. A possible way of rectifying this, would be to pursue scientific studies that would then be able to identify which traits, conditions, (can't really think of the right term here, but I think you know what I'm trying to say...I'll continue to ponder it hoping the right term comes to mind) would cause a person to be considered unstable or dangerous. I don't think there is an overnight solution to this issue, but this could be a decent start.

Disclaimer: I'm sure there are plenty of caveats / aspects I'm missing, this suggestion / idea is pretty much off the top of my head. Perhaps we could create a new thread to discuss, brainstorm on what could actually be done. While some may consider it to be a futile effort, it could help many of us understand other aspects of this topic that may not be readily apparent in our current environments.

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April 8th, 2013, 1:07 pm
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Post Re: What? No gun control thread?
TheRealWags wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
The government should develop policy, turn it over to private industry, and "audit" that industry from time to time.
Agreed. In fact, this sounds like an opportunity for someone (private) to create this new system.
wjb21ndtown wrote:
That would be a huge improvement, but "pork," spending, "bringing home money to various districts," etc. all get in the way of that.
Yup, a sad but true side effect of the current campaign finance & lobbying laws. But again, that is another topic as I don't see a way to fix everything at once, do you?
wjb21ndtown wrote:
Our political system is broken, and it's broken because it's too huge... Who wants it huge? Liberals.
I guess it depends on what you want 'bigger'. If its defense, then 'Conservatives' like big govt; if it's social programs not named social security, then its 'Liberals'.


It wouldn't even matter if a "private" company was created to handle the task. The govt. could create the entity (fannie mae) and step away, but the govt. needs to get its hands off of it as soon as its created. They can't do anything well.

There is huge skepticism (and, rightfully so, IMO) of one centralized database that contains all applications for the purchase of firearms (it's almost a national gun registry, which most do not want).


April 8th, 2013, 3:43 pm
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Post Re: What? No gun control thread?
wjb21ndtown wrote:
There is huge skepticism (and, rightfully so, IMO) of one centralized database that contains all applications for the purchase of firearms (it's almost a national gun registry, which most do not want).
Who says it has to be a database of their applications?

Why couldn't it be either a 'pass / fail' type system where either the person is approved or not approved. If their not approved, then they would have to contact the appropriate dept / group / agency.

Or, as mentioned above, why not a 'credit score' type system. Similar to a credit score, each individual has a 'score / grade' which would signify their 'weapon purchasing worthiness' (for lack of a better term). The 'A' group has no waiting, can purchase immediately. The 'B' group has a short waiting period (3 days? 72 hours?). The 'C' group a longer waiting period, but still able to purchase. The 'D' group has to verify their information as something sticks out. The 'E / F' group is not allowed to purchase at all. Perhaps there could also be a mechanism of where, depending on the 'score / grade' of the buyer (ex. 'C'), the seller could 'affirm / acknowledge' the buyer, which would allow the sale to move forward with the caveat of the seller being held responsible in some fashion if the buyer breaks a law (Think private / family-based transactions)

NOTE: Please keep in mind this is just brainstorming, throwing crap out there off the top of my head. (Hey, we gotta start somewhere, right? :wink: )

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April 8th, 2013, 5:03 pm
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Post Re: What? No gun control thread?
WarEr4Christ wrote:
M2K: Here is a question to your response.

Quote:
Here is a list of standards that need to be passed, nationwide, and if you don't meet them, then no right to a firearm. Anybody who is considered unstable in NYC should be considered equally as unstable in Washington, California and all other parts of the country.


Wouldn't this fall under the same standards as the process that law enforcement uses to blanket certain criminal elements. Forgive me, but I can't think of the legal term, but an example was used under the Patriot Act, that allowed monitoring of Middle Eastern groups via phone taps, and other methods in order to gleen out those who were of that ethnicity and were conducting criminal behavior. Yes it is unfortunate that everyone needs to be watched, but because they actions of the few warrant this kind of action, it has to be done in order to ensure the safety of the whole.

THIS IS MY OPINION, but I believe what we are seeing are the results of YEARS worth of indoctrination in the value of human life. I'm not just talking about the legality of abortion, which I find interesting that the destruction of Eagle eggs (as I've recently seen posted from a friend of mine) carries a $2500.00 fine, and possible imprisonment, but the destruction of a fetus is actually being publicly funded. The devaluation of human life, is the culprit here, and we've done this as a society through many areas. Movies, games, abortion, television, and so on. We no longer see life as precious, and something to be cherished, and because of this, our society cheapens it. It takes 9 months to grow and develop in the womb, and then a lifetime after to develop socially. But taking away the value means that those who can not fend for themselves: women (generally, not as a rule), children, babies, and fetus, become objects of our lusts or of no value, and can be desposed of.

In the terms of women: (slave trafficking and sex slaves) young girls are kidnapped world wide in order that they become recepticals of our physical lusts. She is worth anything, she's just a vehicle I use to satiate my physical desires, and because she is said vehicle I can treat as I wish.

Children become the same as the above, because it's a matter of control, and it's a debase, sick way of thinking, much like the previous Roman Empire you and I discussed some years back.

I think that's the core issue is our perspective on life. All else is a matter of control, food, drink, travel, gun, violence, sport safety, it's all about control.

Kids are kicked out from school for playing guns. Really? How many of us did the same? How many of us worshipped our Grandfathers, because they killed the "Japs." Or our fathers, who killed the "Viet Cong"? or insert your own American enemy here. Now we want to degender our kids and make them safer, more gentile, and uneducated so that they can be controlled easier, and if that doesn't work, let's medicate the SNOT out of them.


Well, first off W4C, your post went more into the issues with our society overall, and not just about the issues I happen to have with the current national instant check system we have. I was pointing out why the background check system is dysfunctional, not why the country as a whole is dysfunctional.

So my question to you is, what do you propose? No background checks? Should we just hand over a gun to anyone who can afford it? I guess I just don't know where you are headed with your post.....

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April 9th, 2013, 2:28 pm
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Post Re: What? No gun control thread?
TheRealWags wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
There is huge skepticism (and, rightfully so, IMO) of one centralized database that contains all applications for the purchase of firearms (it's almost a national gun registry, which most do not want).
Who says it has to be a database of their applications?

Why couldn't it be either a 'pass / fail' type system where either the person is approved or not approved. If their not approved, then they would have to contact the appropriate dept / group / agency.

Or, as mentioned above, why not a 'credit score' type system. Similar to a credit score, each individual has a 'score / grade' which would signify their 'weapon purchasing worthiness' (for lack of a better term). The 'A' group has no waiting, can purchase immediately. The 'B' group has a short waiting period (3 days? 72 hours?). The 'C' group a longer waiting period, but still able to purchase. The 'D' group has to verify their information as something sticks out. The 'E / F' group is not allowed to purchase at all. Perhaps there could also be a mechanism of where, depending on the 'score / grade' of the buyer (ex. 'C'), the seller could 'affirm / acknowledge' the buyer, which would allow the sale to move forward with the caveat of the seller being held responsible in some fashion if the buyer breaks a law (Think private / family-based transactions)

NOTE: Please keep in mind this is just brainstorming, throwing crap out there off the top of my head. (Hey, we gotta start somewhere, right? :wink: )


It would be awesome if our govt. could be trusted to collect information, make a decision, and destroy that information, but we all know that isn't the case.

I really don't want to see a matrix made up. I more want it to be a solid, easy to understand system. I don't want it to be like a credit rating where certain things are judgment calls. 1) have you committed a felony? Y or N? 2) Have you ever been diagnosed with a mental disorder? Y or N 3) If so, what was it?

And there would be a clinical diagnosis of what the disorders can and can't have weapons, and be done with it. Doctors should have some sort of liability to future victims of people that they allege are "cured" of the disorder.

The one big problem is that a lot of mental disorders go undiagnosed, and it's often the poor, crazy people that commit gun related felonies and murders. IMO that's a problem that we're just going to deal with. A necessary evil of the freedom of the ability to possess firearms.


April 9th, 2013, 5:43 pm
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Post Re: What? No gun control thread?
Interesting chart - did you know that guns now kill more people in Michigan than cars...

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April 11th, 2013, 4:53 pm
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Post Re: What? No gun control thread?
Pablo wrote:
Interesting chart - did you know that guns now kill more people in Michigan than cars...

Image


it's not really suprising, when you look and see suicides is steadily on the rise since the bubble bursted. When the economy sucks...people off themselves. ( sounds very cold to put it that way, but sometimes the truth is cold)

To be completely honest with you, I AM suprised that there are more vehicular deaths than murders!......but then Im from Flint so my perspective may be a little skewed. seems like we have a murder a day here.

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April 11th, 2013, 5:23 pm
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Post Re: What? No gun control thread?
Interesting that more suicides took place than homocides. To which I would say that someone determined to kill themselves will do it, regardless of the means handy. My wife's cousin hung himself in a garage, and rigged it so that the garage door couldn't open. He also had a car running just to make sure. If he had access to a gun, he probably would have shot himself. But it doesn't change the fact that his ambition to commit suicide was not going to be deterred. And I believe it is that way with most folks who are determined to kill themselves.

As such, I believe the chart shows us nothing very relevant in regards to the idea of gun freedom vs. gun control.

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April 11th, 2013, 10:58 pm
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