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 Zimmerman 
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Post Re: Zimmerman
This is an excellent review of the Scott / Slager shooting that has a Black man (Alphonzo Rachel) arguing for the police.

http://alfonzorachel.com/2300/if-black-lives-matter-to-libs-stop-encouraging-blacks-to-get-killed

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April 21st, 2015, 6:15 pm
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Post Re: Zimmerman
You're joking.

That video is awful. It's built on a bunch of strawman arguments. I doubt the guy making it is even serious -- he's probably trolling for attention. No one is saying that it's OK not to pay your child support. Or that you shouldn't drive without your registration on you. And the fact that Scott was black is largely irrelevant. He could've been white, hispanic, asian, whatever and it would've been equally as egregious.

What people are saying is that cops shouldn't shoot unarmed suspects in the back while they're running away, and then plant their tazer next to them to make it appear as though they had a legitimate reason to shoot them. If you disagree with that, then I have to assume you aren't a reasonable person, and I can't have a serious discussion with you.

The simple solution is to require all police to wear GoPros or a similar body-mounted camera while on duty. That's one federal spending program I would gladly support.


April 22nd, 2015, 12:01 pm
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Post Re: Zimmerman
Blueskies wrote:
You're joking.

That video is awful. It's built on a bunch of strawman arguments. I doubt the guy making it is even serious -- he's probably trolling for attention. No one is saying that it's OK not to pay your child support. Or that you shouldn't drive without your registration on you. And the fact that Scott was black is largely irrelevant. He could've been white, hispanic, asian, whatever and it would've been equally as egregious.

What people are saying is that cops shouldn't shoot unarmed suspects in the back while they're running away, and then plant their tazer next to them to make it appear as though they had a legitimate reason to shoot them. If you disagree with that, then I have to assume you aren't a reasonable person, and I can't have a serious discussion with you.

The simple solution is to require all police to wear GoPros or a similar body-mounted camera while on duty. That's one federal spending program I would gladly support.

Exactly. Even if you take all of this guy's arguments as true (which is a huge leap considering almost everything he said is speculative opinion), it is still indisputable that the cop shot a guy in the back as he ran away. The only time I can see that as a legitimate action would be if the suspect tried to kill the officer first, and even then it's a bit sketchy. If the guy had a gun and was shooting at police, then turned to run, then it's an acceptable action to return fire. However, if someone tases a cop, then runs, shooting them is not acceptable. In that situation, clearly the officer's life isn't threatened, so responding with lethal force is not justified. If we were to say that using a taser puts the officer's life in danger, then we have to admit that every time a cop tasers someone they are attempting to kill them. And we know that not to be true.

Regardless, the bottom line is the cop shot the guy in the back as he was running away. Whether his previous actions were less than desirable or are what put him in the situation to begin with is irrelevant. The cop should not have shot him in the back. That's all that really matters in this case.

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April 22nd, 2015, 1:07 pm
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Post Re: Zimmerman
Blueskies wrote:
You're joking.

That video is awful. It's built on a bunch of strawman arguments. I doubt the guy making it is even serious -- he's probably trolling for attention. No one is saying that it's OK not to pay your child support. Or that you shouldn't drive without your registration on you. And the fact that Scott was black is largely irrelevant. He could've been white, hispanic, asian, whatever and it would've been equally as egregious.

What people are saying is that cops shouldn't shoot unarmed suspects in the back while they're running away, and then plant their tazer next to them to make it appear as though they had a legitimate reason to shoot them. If you disagree with that, then I have to assume you aren't a reasonable person, and I can't have a serious discussion with you.

The simple solution is to require all police to wear GoPros or a similar body-mounted camera while on duty. That's one federal spending program I would gladly support.

Speaking of strawmen, 'cops shouldn't shoot unarmed suspects in the back while they're running away' is a big one. (Even overlooking the obvious, I would have shot you in the face, but your weren't looking at me.)
Quote:
In Sheppard v. State in 2004, the South Carolina Supreme Court wrote: …a law enforcement officer may use whatever force is necessary to effect the arrest of a felon including deadly force, if necessary, to effect that arrest.

Quote:
A defendant must show that he believed he was in imminent danger, not that he was actually in such danger, because he had the right to act on appearances…


A perp wrestles with a cop and takes away their Taser (which subsequently falls to the ground). In the process of losing the Taser the cop pulls his gun to fire in self defense. He doesn't notice the fallen Taser, he thinks the perp is now armed and he fires at the perp until he brings him down. Subsequently he notices the Taser has fallen. To highlight his thought process he drops the fallen Taser closer to the body to help visually support his case, that he felt in imminent danger.

All this shows is tampering with evidence. It does not show premeditation nor does it show murder. My guess is the cop walks on the murder charge.

BTW, the Go Pro would have shown the perp fighting the cop and taking his Taser, supporting the cop's case of self defense.

http://news.stlpublicradio.org/post/does-officer-who-shot-walter-scott-have-defense-state-law-there-missouri-confusing

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April 22nd, 2015, 1:18 pm
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Post Re: Zimmerman
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BTW, the Go Pro would have shown the perp fighting the cop and taking his Taser, supporting the cop's case of self defense.


If that's what happened. The video doesn't show that. That's what Slager said, but he's obviously not a trustworthy person.

That's why I would support the GoPros. Everything would be clear-cut.


April 22nd, 2015, 1:36 pm
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Post Re: Zimmerman
South Carolina law specifically states that they may shoot a felon, which this suspect was not. You can't label someone as such until they are a suspect. And it requires a threat of life, which a taser is not. The officer's word can't be taken as fact simply because he tried to falsify the story. The fact that he has previous abuses on his record and that he was charged with murder point to the fact that there wasn't evidence of a struggle. Prosecutors wouldn't bring up the charge unless they believed they had a case.

I was on Zimmerman's side because the evidence pointed to him being innocent. The grand jury didn't want to bring a charge, it was a politically motivated DA that pushed it and it fell through in court. This case is obvious wrong doing beyond just tampering with evidence. If he wasn't guilty, why tamper in the first place. The evidence would have backed up his story. He was unaware he was being recorded. He was altering evidence because he knew his story wouldn't add up.


April 22nd, 2015, 4:34 pm
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Post Re: Zimmerman
njroar wrote:
South Carolina law specifically states that they may shoot a felon, which this suspect was not. You can't label someone as such until they are a suspect. And it requires a threat of life, which a taser is not. The officer's word can't be taken as fact simply because he tried to falsify the story. The fact that he has previous abuses on his record and that he was charged with murder point to the fact that there wasn't evidence of a struggle. Prosecutors wouldn't bring up the charge unless they believed they had a case.

I was on Zimmerman's side because the evidence pointed to him being innocent. The grand jury didn't want to bring a charge, it was a politically motivated DA that pushed it and it fell through in court. This case is obvious wrong doing beyond just tampering with evidence. If he wasn't guilty, why tamper in the first place. The evidence would have backed up his story. He was unaware he was being recorded. He was altering evidence because he knew his story wouldn't add up.

So is it your belief that the cop simply dropped his taser, a weapon that could have nicely tortured his victim with absolutely no repercussion on the cop, and instead reached for his gun because he decided on the spur of the moment that it might be fun to shoot someone?

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April 23rd, 2015, 1:02 pm
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Post Re: Zimmerman
We don't know how the taser got to where it is. But the taser is a non-lethal tool and as such doesn't warrant shooting someone in the back eight times. EIGHT times. He was pulled over for a broken tail light. And there are reports of a warrant for child support payments. Still not a felony, so he's not permitted to just shoot someone after whatever caused him to run.

I've seen some footage that does make it seem like he used the taser on the cop, but again we don't know why. He could have grabbed it out of self defense with something that happened between the dash cam footage and the cell phone footage. Then picking up the taser and moving it makes it look (without video) that he didn't flee and was just shot in self defense. At the very least, he's going to get convicted of manslaughter. You can't alter self defense when you tamper with the evidence to make it look like self defense. If it was, you wouldn't have needed to move a thing.


April 24th, 2015, 2:25 am
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Post Re: Zimmerman
njroar wrote:
We don't know how the taser got to where it is. But the taser is a non-lethal tool and as such doesn't warrant shooting someone in the back eight times. EIGHT times. He was pulled over for a broken tail light. And there are reports of a warrant for child support payments. Still not a felony, so he's not permitted to just shoot someone after whatever caused him to run.

I've seen some footage that does make it seem like he used the taser on the cop, but again we don't know why. He could have grabbed it out of self defense with something that happened between the dash cam footage and the cell phone footage. Then picking up the taser and moving it makes it look (without video) that he didn't flee and was just shot in self defense. At the very least, he's going to get convicted of manslaughter. You can't alter self defense when you tamper with the evidence to make it look like self defense. If it was, you wouldn't have needed to move a thing.
The felony would be attacking a police officer and taking his taser - assuming the cop didn't on the spur of the moment go tiger.

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April 24th, 2015, 6:55 am
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Post Re: Zimmerman
But you can't be called a felon until you're convicted of being one. Committing a felony doesn't make you a felon until after you're caught, have your day in court, convicted and sentenced. That law is for known felons that escape or are known repeaters. Every word and punctuation in the law is important, so having it say felon, means felon specifically. Otherwise it would have said person.


April 24th, 2015, 8:12 am
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Post Re: Zimmerman
njroar wrote:
But you can't be called a felon until you're convicted of being one. Committing a felony doesn't make you a felon until after you're caught, have your day in court, convicted and sentenced. That law is for known felons that escape or are known repeaters. Every word and punctuation in the law is important, so having it say felon, means felon specifically. Otherwise it would have said person.
Seriously? A cop witnesses a felony but is unable to shoot the bad guy because he has not had his day in court?

It is unlikely the cop went nuts and on the spur of the moment just started shooting someone. Something caused him to fear for his life. His biggest mistake was moving the dropped taser. He should have left it alone, told his story, and let the facts speak for themselves. I understand why he did not, especially with the emotionally unstable race baiting community looking for cop scalps.

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April 24th, 2015, 1:14 pm
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Post Re: Zimmerman
I hate to break it to you, but cops can be (and often are) the "bad guy."

Having seen people tazed in person, I don't believe that cop was tazed just before that video was shot. He looks perfectly fine. Standing on two feet, calmly holding his gun and firing with precision.


April 24th, 2015, 1:53 pm
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Post Re: Zimmerman
TruckinMack wrote:
njroar wrote:
But you can't be called a felon until you're convicted of being one. Committing a felony doesn't make you a felon until after you're caught, have your day in court, convicted and sentenced. That law is for known felons that escape or are known repeaters. Every word and punctuation in the law is important, so having it say felon, means felon specifically. Otherwise it would have said person.
Seriously? A cop witnesses a felony but is unable to shoot the bad guy because he has not had his day in court?

It is unlikely the cop went nuts and on the spur of the moment just started shooting someone. Something caused him to fear for his life. His biggest mistake was moving the dropped taser. He should have left it alone, told his story, and let the facts speak for themselves. I understand why he did not, especially with the emotionally unstable race baiting community looking for cop scalps.


Police can shoot a suspect when they fear their life or the life of others is in danger, but that specific statute you posted is specifically written about someone in the act of a felony. Running isn't a felony. A broken tail light isn't a felony. Not paying child support isn't a felony. Even resisting arrest isn't a felony, so him moving the taser is his attempt at trying to make it look like a felony when it wasn't. If he shot him while he was using the taser, he could argue that he was in the process of committing a felony (assault with a weapon) but because the taser isn't a lethal weapon that is brought into question. If he dropped the taser after using it, he's no longer in the act, and it brings up the question that the suspect feared for his life, so the shooting is definitely not justified in that case.

Tennessee v. Garner, 471 U.S. 1 (1985)[1], was a case in which the Supreme Court of the United States held that, under the Fourth Amendment, when a law enforcement officer is pursuing a fleeing suspect, he or she may not use deadly force to prevent escape unless "the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others."

If he dropped the taser, he doesn't pose a significant threat, which shows the officer tried to skirt the law and make it look justified when it's not, which is why he was immediately charged with murder. Even if his life was in danger at some point, at the time the suspect dropped the taser and ran, he no longer posed that threat. The window for deadly force closed and he gunned down an unarmed suspect. That goes beyond tampering and becomes murder.

And I get your point about the race-baiting community and the view of cops after Ferguson, but this is an obvious case of someone that knew the law, and that he messed up. Deadly force has it's limits and he tried to fit it into those limits. Because if he left the evidence as it was, it shows that he no longer had to fear for his life and it was an unjustified shooting according to the law. And an unjustified shooting will result in the officer being charged. The tampering as shown on the video reveals a much bigger issue than just tampering.


April 24th, 2015, 2:14 pm
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Post Re: Zimmerman
njroar wrote:
TruckinMack wrote:
njroar wrote:
But you can't be called a felon until you're convicted of being one. Committing a felony doesn't make you a felon until after you're caught, have your day in court, convicted and sentenced. That law is for known felons that escape or are known repeaters. Every word and punctuation in the law is important, so having it say felon, means felon specifically. Otherwise it would have said person.
Seriously? A cop witnesses a felony but is unable to shoot the bad guy because he has not had his day in court?

It is unlikely the cop went nuts and on the spur of the moment just started shooting someone. Something caused him to fear for his life. His biggest mistake was moving the dropped taser. He should have left it alone, told his story, and let the facts speak for themselves. I understand why he did not, especially with the emotionally unstable race baiting community looking for cop scalps.


Police can shoot a suspect when they fear their life or the life of others is in danger, but that specific statute you posted is specifically written about someone in the act of a felony. Running isn't a felony. A broken tail light isn't a felony. Not paying child support isn't a felony. Even resisting arrest isn't a felony, so him moving the taser is his attempt at trying to make it look like a felony when it wasn't. If he shot him while he was using the taser, he could argue that he was in the process of committing a felony (assault with a weapon) but because the taser isn't a lethal weapon that is brought into question. If he dropped the taser after using it, he's no longer in the act, and it brings up the question that the suspect feared for his life, so the shooting is definitely not justified in that case.

Tennessee v. Garner, 471 U.S. 1 (1985)[1], was a case in which the Supreme Court of the United States held that, under the Fourth Amendment, when a law enforcement officer is pursuing a fleeing suspect, he or she may not use deadly force to prevent escape unless "the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others."

If he dropped the taser, he doesn't pose a significant threat, which shows the officer tried to skirt the law and make it look justified when it's not, which is why he was immediately charged with murder. Even if his life was in danger at some point, at the time the suspect dropped the taser and ran, he no longer posed that threat. The window for deadly force closed and he gunned down an unarmed suspect. That goes beyond tampering and becomes murder.

And I get your point about the race-baiting community and the view of cops after Ferguson, but this is an obvious case of someone that knew the law, and that he messed up. Deadly force has it's limits and he tried to fit it into those limits. Because if he left the evidence as it was, it shows that he no longer had to fear for his life and it was an unjustified shooting according to the law. And an unjustified shooting will result in the officer being charged. The tampering as shown on the video reveals a much bigger issue than just tampering.
Who said running or a tail light was a felony? I said assaulting a police officer and taking his weapon was.

If the cop knew he dropped the taser, then the cop knew he was unarmed. Did the cop know he had dropped the taser?

If the cop had been tased (a thought that did not occur to me) was he thinking clearly as he tried to defend himself. If indeed he had been tased,, then even his decision to move the taser could be related to the after effect of poor judgement.

This is going to be interesting to follow and see how it ends.

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April 25th, 2015, 12:20 pm
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Post Re: Zimmerman
Things you won't hear or read about in the mainstream media.

It appears that Scott indeed shot the police officer with the stun gun, at which point the officer responded in self defense.

http://theconservativetreehouse.com/201 ... ser-darts/

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May 1st, 2015, 12:47 pm
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