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 Noah's Ark, before Noah... 
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Post Re: Noah's Ark, before Noah...
regularjoe12 wrote:
says the guy who can't even recognize that Atheism is a faith based system as well. (believing in nothing is STILL BELIEVING in something that can not be proven)untill you can figure out that BASIC most common of sense discoveries...you have no buisness having a theology discussion. sorry, but we cant talk algebra if you can't do addition and subtraction.
I like that right after I posted,
Quote:
So many Atheists are the whiniest little b----es. "Our faith is better than anything. We want to be sure to insult other religions as often as we can. We think everyone else's religion should die. Our belief system isn't a faith, it's something better."
BS had to post a rude, insulting 'joke' about Christians. It's as if he couldn't help himself.

Why some people think being rude and hostile is funny is a question left for another day. (Clitoris sized penises maybe?)

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January 30th, 2014, 4:37 am
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Post Re: Noah's Ark, before Noah...
TruckinMack wrote:
DJ-B wrote:
Technically speaking bs is right that Atheism is not a faith, it is a lack of faith.

Personally , as an agnostic, I enjoy reading about this type of stuff, as well as people opinions of it.
Technically speaking you are wrong. Atheists do not lack faith, they have a strong faith in that God isn't. They do not have no faith, no opinion, or no belief. They strongly, adamantly, and in BS's case, as extremely rudely as possible believe that there is no God. That is a belief, a faith. One who states, "I dunno and I don't care" might be said to lack faith, but Atheists most definitely have faith. They just are loath to admit it.


You have no faith, and therefore you have faith - LOL!

So since I have faith in little green men living on Mars, you also have faith because you don't? You also probably have a strong faith that Leprechauns aren't.

Not believing in God has nothing to do with faith as I hope you can now see unless you are going to say you have some sort of faith in unicorns and the tooth fairy for which I would love to hear about.

As for the rest, let's keep piling on the Atheists (since I'm a fence sitting Agnostic), I mean they think differently than the rest of us. That is certainly what Jesus would do isn't it....

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January 30th, 2014, 10:14 am
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Post Re: Noah's Ark, before Noah...
WarEr4Christ wrote:
Sorry, I didn't mean to turn this into an atheism brawl...

You didn't, Pablo did. He wanted to irritate religious people because he thought somehow he found proof that the writings of the Holy Bible were not inspired by God. (He admitted as much, and I give credit for honesty.) BS saw what Pablo was doing and jumped in with both feet. Eventually he posted a picture of a bird pooping. (It was expected.)

WarEr4Christ wrote:
Back to Pablo's post: What is the accuracy rate of carbon dating?
I'm sorry that I cannot help you here. I accept carbon dating as a fairly reliable scientific technique. Like Evolution, I do not have a horse in this race. Earth could be a kajillion years old, or not. This is one of my 'don't know, don't care about' things that have Atheists runaround saying 'Mon Dieu!' As far as my faith goes, I'm more concerned with - 'Should I be writing on Lionbacker in support of religion right now or should I be working a soup kitchen instead?'

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January 30th, 2014, 10:14 am
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Post Re: Noah's Ark, before Noah...
Pablo wrote:
TruckinMack wrote:
DJ-B wrote:
Technically speaking bs is right that Atheism is not a faith, it is a lack of faith.

Personally , as an agnostic, I enjoy reading about this type of stuff, as well as people opinions of it.
Technically speaking you are wrong. Atheists do not lack faith, they have a strong faith in that God isn't. They do not have no faith, no opinion, or no belief. They strongly, adamantly, and in BS's case, as extremely rudely as possible believe that there is no God. That is a belief, a faith. One who states, "I dunno and I don't care" might be said to lack faith, but Atheists most definitely have faith. They just are loath to admit it.


You have no faith, and therefore you have faith - LOL!

So since I have faith in little green men living on Mars, you also have faith because you don't? You also probably have a strong faith that Leprechauns aren't.

Not believing in God has nothing to do with faith as I hope you can now see unless you are going to say you have some sort of faith in unicorns and the tooth fairy for which I would love to hear about.

As for the rest, let's keep piling on the Atheists (since I'm a fence sitting Agnostic), I mean they think differently than the rest of us. That is certainly what Jesus would do isn't it....
Pablo, I cannot make heads or tails out of your post. Are you drunk blogging again? BTW you describe yourself as a fence sitting 'Agnostic' but you also mentioned being threatened by the bible and by religion in general............ So, you are anti-religion but neutral otherwise? Got it.

Believing there is no God is a belief, an unprovable and unknowable theory, to wit, a faith. It seems we just had this discussion in an earlier thread. Study English. It might improve your life.

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January 30th, 2014, 10:27 am
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Post Re: Noah's Ark, before Noah...
TruckinMack wrote:
Pablo, I cannot make heads or tails out of your post. Are you drunk blogging again? BTW you describe yourself as a fence sitting 'Agnostic' but you also mentioned being threatened by the bible and by religion in general............ So, you are anti-religion but neutral otherwise? Got it.

Believing there is no God is a belief, an unprovable and unknowable theory, to wit, a faith. It seems we just had this discussion in an earlier thread. Study English. It might improve your life.


I'm open to the idea of no God, I'm also open to the idea of a God somewhat close the prevailing current concept of God, I'm also open to the idea of a God existing that we have virtually nothing close to truly comprehending yet. All 3 possibilities exist in my mind, I can't understand how others can cling to just one of those possibilities and rule out the others.

And as an agnostic, I do feel threatened by religion in general. How could I not, we have thousands of years of violence due to contrasting faiths. I pointed out a few earlier (I could provide a snarky comment like "Study English. It might improve your life.", but I'd like to keep this at an adult level, please be courteous and do the same.) with many examples.

Also I'm not "drunk blogging again" since I rarely drink and if I do I certainly don't jump onto this forum to post. As a proclaimed follower in Jesus I'm very disappointed in how you choose to communicate as I'm sure your deity would do if he does indeed exist. I've read the new testament countless times, perhaps you can point out how the man/God you choose to use as an example communicates like this?

BTW - your earlier assumptions about my intentions were also wrong. I'd be truly impressed if you could actually read my mind, but since you have proven to me you do not have this ability, please refrain. No I'm not out to "irritate". Actually, I'm trying to get Christians to actually "think" and "believe" rather than just "believe". Also, I had absolutely no intentions of turning this into a atheism brawl.

One area I really struggle with from a Christianity standpoint, as pointed out, is the absolute utter lack of creativity/originality in Biblical stories. Common sense tells me that if there was a "creator", he would "create" an original tale of his son, Noah, etc. Common sense also tells me that if the Bible was "inspired by God", he wouldn't have taken stories from earlier belief systems if they were wrong and only Christianity was the "truth". I keep waiting for someone to help me bridge this gap somehow which would bring me to a closer understanding of how Christianity could be valid but I've yet to get a credible answer. Instead, it seems like we really don't have a good explanation, so let's attack atheists rather than find a common ground.

I'm not interested in that kind of discussion, but y'all have at it if it makes you feel better about your own belief system.

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January 30th, 2014, 11:59 am
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Post Re: Noah's Ark, before Noah...
Pablo, I get what your saying. If I could, I think the explanations for "earlier belief systems" is just a misrepresentation of time. Just because the bible was written and printed at a certain time, doesn't mean those stories don't exist. If you do believe in the man came from one area and branched out, wouldn't it make sense that people that had no contact together would end up having the same stories. The Noah story predates the tablet in the story, unless somehow these scientists are subtracting years from the already too short creationist timeline that they think we all believe in. It's only AFTER if you're only going by publishing date.

And doubt is a good thing. It's makes you question things. I wish more Christians would follow their doubts to find out answers.

My biggest disappointment is when people drag in science as a way of saying, well this happens naturally, so there can't be a God. If God created everything, wouldn't he have created that also? That's why I don't discount evolution. Science proved the Red Sea can part exactly how it did in the Bible. The difference is it happened at precisely the exact time it needed to happen. Coincidence, could be. But a coincidence at the time when the Jews fled captivity following the coincidental timing of the seven plagues is what makes you really have to think harder.


January 30th, 2014, 12:21 pm
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Post Re: Noah's Ark, before Noah...
Pablo wrote:
I'm open to the idea of no God, I'm also open to the idea of a God somewhat close the prevailing current concept of God, I'm also open to the idea of a God existing that we have virtually nothing close to truly comprehending yet. All 3 possibilities exist in my mind, I can't understand how others can cling to just one of those possibilities and rule out the others.
'Cling to' a description indicating unneeded emotional fear. Nice. That is similar to saying someone who cannot pick a course of faith is gutless... but I will try to keep this at the adult level.

Pablo wrote:
And as an agnostic, I do feel threatened by religion in general. How could I not, we have thousands of years of violence due to contrasting faiths. I pointed out a few earlier (I could provide a snarky comment like "Study English. It might improve your life.", but I'd like to keep this at an adult level, please be courteous and do the same.) with many examples.
You might recall I posted examples of despotic or criminal Atheists. I find your Agnosticism finely pointed at the religious. I agree with your initial offering, that you are threatened by (and so have a disdain for) religion, a threat that you do not find in Atheism, in Agnosticism. I don't see you sitting on top of the fence, more that you are firmly on one side, but have yet to fully commit.

Pablo wrote:
Also I'm not "drunk blogging again" since I rarely drink and if I do I certainly don't jump onto this forum to post.
Then, re-read your recent post and please explain what the heck you are talking about, cuz I got nothing.

Pablo wrote:
As a proclaimed follower in Jesus I'm very disappointed in how you choose to communicate as I'm sure your deity would do if he does indeed exist. I've read the new testament countless times, perhaps you can point out how the man/God you choose to use as an example communicates like this?
RULE 4: “Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules.” - I've been waiting for BS to try this approach. One of my favorite parts of the new testament is when Jesus tears up the temple. Perhaps you missed this in your readings? So many think of Jesus as a pacifist. Odd for one who fought against evil his whole life.

Pablo wrote:
BTW - your earlier assumptions about my intentions were also wrong. I'd be truly impressed if you could actually read my mind, but since you have proven to me you do not have this ability, please refrain. No I'm not out to "irritate". Actually, I'm trying to get Christians to actually "think" and "believe" rather than just "believe". Also, I had absolutely no intentions of turning this into a atheism brawl.
Not reading your mind. Reading your actual words. I had awarded you points for honesty. It seems that award was premature.

Pablo wrote:
One area I really struggle with from a Christianity standpoint, as pointed out, is the absolute utter lack of creativity/originality in Biblical stories. Common sense tells me that if there was a "creator", he would "create" an original tale of his son, Noah, etc. Common sense also tells me that if the Bible was "inspired by God", he wouldn't have taken stories from earlier belief systems if they were wrong and only Christianity was the "truth". I keep waiting for someone to help me bridge this gap somehow which would bring me to a closer understanding of how Christianity could be valid but I've yet to get a credible answer. Instead, it seems like we really don't have a good explanation, so let's attack atheists (and Christians) rather than find a common ground.
Why do you believe that God did not show Himself to earlier civilizations? Why do you think that God wanted people to suffer, to be without hope. For an Agnostic who says he is open to multiple views, you seem to refuse this likelihood.

Pablo wrote:
I'm not interested in that kind of discussion, but y'all have at it if it makes you feel better about your own belief system.
Ending with an insult. Is that RULE 8: “Keep the pressure on. Never let up.” (Attack, attack, attack.) or RULE 12: Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.” Cut off the support network and isolate the target from sympathy. Pablo, the next time you are trying to be open, honest and have a learning discussion, try not to say things like,
Quote:
Who wouldn't feel threatened at least to some point by the Bible and religion in general?
or
Quote:
...taken in context it becomes pretty clear that it is not the "inspired" word of God,
or
Quote:
I'm curious as to the process you must have gone through to "completely" rule out every other faith on the planet.
These are all being offered with a hostile, belittling attitude. They are not conducive to meaningful dialogue.

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January 30th, 2014, 12:49 pm
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Post Re: Noah's Ark, before Noah...
WarEr4Christ wrote:
Why is Atheism fighting so hard against a God they claim doesn't exist? If he doesn't exist, then what are they fighting?

Sorry I asked two. But I'll be back later, time permitting.


Let me answer this with a question - why does Christianity fight so hard against other belief systems when they "know" those Gods aren't real? I could rattle off a number of groups/civilizations that have been virtually whipped off the planet by Christians because they didn't believe in Jesus/Christian God.

The difference tends to be in the way the two sides fight. Atheist fight with words and logic. Christians have fought with weapons that kill their fellow man. You never heard of a group of Atheist killing other group to impose their lack of belief have you?

Perhaps therein lies part of the answer. It's never been a fair fight. If it was, Christianity wouldn't be nearly as dominant as it is today. I'm answering this way in somewhat response to the "threat" issue brought up early, however, it is not a primary driving force for me.

Let me also give another reason, one I'm sure you can understand and perhaps a better reason. Why do you want people to "know Jesus"? You feel he will help them in the same way he has helped you. This is commendable my friend as it comes from a good place.

Well, I want to help others also. For me, when I gave up my faith in Christianity I personally found it to be very powerful. Instead of depending on "outside forces" to shape my life, I realized all the power I needed existed within me. Instead of prayer, I now use meditation which works much better for me, again personally. Beyond feeling more empowered, I also felt a sense of relief from a set of rules/restrictions that had been imposed upon my by my previous beliefs. The vast majority of these, like in any faith system, are common sense and behold to a basic moral code. It was all the other stuff like I should remain a virgin and not live with a girlfriend until marriage, that I was relieved to be free from. Honestly, if you are going to spend the rest of your life with someone I personally think it is a good idea to know them inside and out and religion can be a barrier to that. I'm glad to be relieved from the guilt associated with natural behaviors like that. I don't want to feel ashamed for using birth control or using advanced science to procreate as Christianity suggest. These ideals come from 1,000s of years ago and need to be reconsidered in a very different world.

As for the big one's such as "thou shall not kill", of course you shouldn't kill. What is scary is when a Christian feels justified with "Jesus on his side" to break one of God's own commandments. It is that "grandiose" justification of God (or honestly country many times) that scares the hell out of me. Those type of grandiose delusions result in planes being flown into the twin towers and other acts of war. The promise of an everlasting reward after life is very powerful to many, but not non-believers. Again, that is the "threat" piece in Christianity. Now, I would like to say that the "threat" is a very small % of Christians, the vast majority use their beliefs in very positive ways too numerous to mention here.

So like many believers, I've found something that really works for me and I want to share it. Not only have I become so much more in control of my own life, my mind is open to endless possibilities which I find very fascinating to continuously explore. One life lesson I tend to understand better as each precious year passes is that the more I know, the more there is that I don't know. That fits in very nicely with the concept of agnosticism.

It isn't the destination, it is the journey. I feel like so many out there are focused on the destination (let's call it heaven for simplicity sake), that they rule out so many "paths" along the journey to follow a very narrow and rigid set of paths that much is missed. I'll continue to explore the "Christian path", but do so with an open and skeptical mind like I do with every other path, while exploring others at the same time. I don't know where it will end up (unlike many of you) and I find that exhilarating, most others live in complete fear of it - I find that a shame.

That's my perspective anyway, honestly I hope that whatever path you choose it works for you as well as it seems to work for me (on my path) and for WE4C (on his). Perhaps we choose a path based upon what we need as individuals. WE4C needs Christ in his life, I do not. But we both want to share what works for us in hopes of helping others.

Long answer to a wonderful question, thanks for asking it and I hope we continue to find common ground and understanding.

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January 30th, 2014, 12:51 pm
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Post Re: Noah's Ark, before Noah...
Pablo wrote:
TruckinMack wrote:
DJ-B wrote:
Technically speaking bs is right that Atheism is not a faith, it is a lack of faith.

Personally , as an agnostic, I enjoy reading about this type of stuff, as well as people opinions of it.
Technically speaking you are wrong. Atheists do not lack faith, they have a strong faith in that God isn't. They do not have no faith, no opinion, or no belief. They strongly, adamantly, and in BS's case, as extremely rudely as possible believe that there is no God. That is a belief, a faith. One who states, "I dunno and I don't care" might be said to lack faith, but Atheists most definitely have faith. They just are loath to admit it.


You have no faith, and therefore you have faith - LOL!

So since I have faith in little green men living on Mars, you also have faith because you don't? You also probably have a strong faith that Leprechauns aren't.

Not believing in God has nothing to do with faith as I hope you can now see unless you are going to say you have some sort of faith in unicorns and the tooth fairy for which I would love to hear about.

As for the rest, let's keep piling on the Atheists (since I'm a fence sitting Agnostic), I mean they think differently than the rest of us. That is certainly what Jesus would do isn't it....


I think I can help with the confusion...and you are an excellent example of what i am talking about.

YOU as a person don't have much in the line of faith. You are open to any ideas that make sense, but convinced of none. you're not taking any leaps of faith that can not be proven at this point in your life. can we agree on that?

Now lets look at BS. can he say the same thing? It looks to me like he is pretty adamant on his feeling that no god exists. this has not been (and can not be) proven. so what is it, to swear to something that has no conclusive evidence, if it's not faith? it's a belief system IMO.

while your examples are fairytail-ish, you are correct. faith...even in the rediculous is still faith. I have the utmost in faith that bigfoot does not exists. other have faith in the oposite. faith is not a matter or right or wrong. it's not a matter of realistic, or unrealistic. Faith is simply the belief in something unproven, and that spectrum surpasses just god/ vs no god...it pretty much encompasses everything.

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January 30th, 2014, 1:08 pm
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Post Re: Noah's Ark, before Noah...
TruckinMack wrote:
Pablo wrote:
I'm open to the idea of no God, I'm also open to the idea of a God somewhat close the prevailing current concept of God, I'm also open to the idea of a God existing that we have virtually nothing close to truly comprehending yet. All 3 possibilities exist in my mind, I can't understand how others can cling to just one of those possibilities and rule out the others.
'Cling to' a description indicating unneeded emotional fear. Nice. That is similar to saying someone who cannot pick a course of faith is gutless... but I will try to keep this at the adult level.

Pablo wrote:
And as an agnostic, I do feel threatened by religion in general. How could I not, we have thousands of years of violence due to contrasting faiths. I pointed out a few earlier (I could provide a snarky comment like "Study English. It might improve your life.", but I'd like to keep this at an adult level, please be courteous and do the same.) with many examples.
You might recall I posted examples of despotic or criminal Atheists. I find your Agnosticism finely pointed at the religious. I agree with your initial offering, that you are threatened by (and so have a disdain for) religion, a threat that you do not find in Atheism, in Agnosticism. I don't see you sitting on top of the fence, more that you are firmly on one side, but have yet to fully commit.

Pablo wrote:
Also I'm not "drunk blogging again" since I rarely drink and if I do I certainly don't jump onto this forum to post.
Then, re-read your recent post and please explain what the heck you are talking about, cuz I got nothing.

Pablo wrote:
As a proclaimed follower in Jesus I'm very disappointed in how you choose to communicate as I'm sure your deity would do if he does indeed exist. I've read the new testament countless times, perhaps you can point out how the man/God you choose to use as an example communicates like this?
RULE 4: “Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules.” - I've been waiting for BS to try this approach. One of my favorite parts of the new testament is when Jesus tears up the temple. Perhaps you missed this in your readings? So many think of Jesus as a pacifist. Odd for one who fought against evil his whole life.

Pablo wrote:
BTW - your earlier assumptions about my intentions were also wrong. I'd be truly impressed if you could actually read my mind, but since you have proven to me you do not have this ability, please refrain. No I'm not out to "irritate". Actually, I'm trying to get Christians to actually "think" and "believe" rather than just "believe". Also, I had absolutely no intentions of turning this into a atheism brawl.
Not reading your mind. Reading your actual words. I had awarded you points for honesty. It seems that award was premature.

Pablo wrote:
One area I really struggle with from a Christianity standpoint, as pointed out, is the absolute utter lack of creativity/originality in Biblical stories. Common sense tells me that if there was a "creator", he would "create" an original tale of his son, Noah, etc. Common sense also tells me that if the Bible was "inspired by God", he wouldn't have taken stories from earlier belief systems if they were wrong and only Christianity was the "truth". I keep waiting for someone to help me bridge this gap somehow which would bring me to a closer understanding of how Christianity could be valid but I've yet to get a credible answer. Instead, it seems like we really don't have a good explanation, so let's attack atheists (and Christians) rather than find a common ground.
Why do you believe that God did not show Himself to earlier civilizations? Why do you think that God wanted people to suffer, to be without hope. For an Agnostic who says he is open to multiple views, you seem to refuse this likelihood.

Pablo wrote:
I'm not interested in that kind of discussion, but y'all have at it if it makes you feel better about your own belief system.
Ending with an insult. Is that RULE 8: “Keep the pressure on. Never let up.” (Attack, attack, attack.) or RULE 12: Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.” Cut off the support network and isolate the target from sympathy. Pablo, the next time you are trying to be open, honest and have a learning discussion, try not to say things like,
Quote:
Who wouldn't feel threatened at least to some point by the Bible and religion in general?
or
Quote:
...taken in context it becomes pretty clear that it is not the "inspired" word of God,
or
Quote:
I'm curious as to the process you must have gone through to "completely" rule out every other faith on the planet.
These are all being offered with a hostile, belittling attitude. They are not conducive to meaningful dialogue.


You and I can go back and forth, but honestly I'm not seeing anything productive coming from it so I'll say a couple of things and be done with it.

1) If you want to call Agnostic as being "gutless", then so be it. I attempted to explain my reasoning/logic behind my viewpoint. I also have no need to "commit" to one side or the other. I used to be Christian, I'm no longer committed that. If you call turning your back on something you are told from a child as being the truth and if you don't believe you will spend eternity in hell "gutless" that is your prerogative. I can tell you it was gut wrenching at first and very difficult to overcome those fears instilled in me as a child. Honestly, it would have been much easier to continue to believe and think that I would have this wonderful eternity in heaven once I pass.

2) Jesus attacked the temple, really the institution of religion - I did read that and honestly, I'm doing much the same thing here. That is much different than attacking an individual, something I don't believe Jesus would do based on my understanding of how he was depicted. I think it is admirable to try to live and behave like Jesus did, that isn't my issue at all. Like Jesus, I'm fighting against evil that comes from the institution of religion.

3) Why don't I believe God showed himself to earlier civilizations? As an Agnostic, I don't know this to be true so I turn to common sense. If God truly wants us to know him, why only show himself to earlier civilizations. If you wanted your child to know you, would you only be around them for the first 3 years of their lives? Just makes no sense. If God truly wanted man to know him, technology has made now the time yet he is conspicuously absent at a time when he can reach everyone fairly easy. Did he just love people more 2000+ years ago, again, common sense says no.

4) I'm sorry if I am coming across as hostile, not my intentions. After studying the Bible I'm very sure you understand that interpretation of the written word can yield many different outcomes. Again, hostility was not my intent - I just wanted you to know that TM and I apologize for any hostility that could be interpreted from my responses as I'm sure one could read that into it.

OK, I've got to get back to work now. Peace out!

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Post Re: Noah's Ark, before Noah...
From an earlier post you mentioned 'Thou Shall Not Kill'. I believe the actual wording is 'Thou Shall Not Murder'. I've no idea if God supports justifiable killing, but I think He does.

Pablo wrote:
1) If you want to call Agnostic as being "gutless", then so be it.
I don't think you are gutless. I'm pretty much accepting of virtually all religious faiths, including Atheists and Agnostics. (Worshiping evil would not be in my support group.)

Pablo wrote:
2) Jesus attacked the temple, really the institution of religion - I did read that and honestly, I'm doing much the same thing here. Like Jesus, I'm fighting against evil that comes from the institution of religion.
I'm fighting the evil that comes from man, but we are both fighting evil, so common ground.

Pablo wrote:
3) Why don't I believe God showed himself to earlier civilizations? As an Agnostic, I don't know this to be true so I turn to common sense. If God truly wants us to know him, why only show himself to earlier civilizations.
On the one hand, I've no idea why God keeps himself so hidden. On the other hand, I've no idea why you cannot see God all around you everyday.

Pablo wrote:
4) I'm sorry if I am coming across as hostile, not my intentions. Again, hostility was not my intent - I just wanted you to know that TM and I apologize for any hostility that could be interpreted from my responses as I'm sure one could read that into it. Peace out!
Peace out and Vaya Con Dios.

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January 30th, 2014, 1:53 pm
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Post Re: Noah's Ark, before Noah...
Do I "adamantly" believe that there is no god? No.

Like Pablo, I am open to the possibility that there could be a god -- indeed, nearly all atheists are. Just like I am open to the possibility that vampires, fairies or werewolves are real. I seriously, seriously doubt it, but I suppose it's possible. Even Richard Dawkins, perhaps the most visible and most hostile atheist, says that on a scale of 1-10, he's an 8 in terms of disbelief. He leaves the door open, but there's no reason to believe in god and therefore he does not.

I'm not sure where this faux distinction between atheists and agnostics came from -- there are very few, if any agnostics. Nearly everyone who claims to be an agnostic is in fact an atheist, but chooses not to call themselves that because of the negative connotation the word implies. True agnostics are sort of theological nihilists, who believe that the search for god is absurd -- that even contemplating the question is an exercise in futility, that god is far beyond human understanding.

On another note, trying to blame Mao and Stalin's genocide on their atheism is about the most intellectually dishonest thing you could do. Yes, they were atheists, but their evil came from their devotion to communism -- its own form of religion. At its core, communism is about a belief in the "chosen class" and their destiny to rule the world forever. Trying to say Mao and Stalin were killers because they were atheists, is identical to saying they were killers because they were both born on the continent of Asia.


January 30th, 2014, 2:54 pm
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Post Re: Noah's Ark, before Noah...
Blueskies wrote:
I'm not sure where this faux distinction between atheists and agnostics came from -- there are very few, if any agnostics. Nearly everyone who claims to be an agnostic is in fact an atheist...
Awesome. Earlier you claimed I was an Atheist and now you claim Agnostics as well. Blue I hope you never stop posting because I get the giggles every time you post.
Atheist: Believes there is no God
Agnostic: Believes most or all faiths are more or less equally good or, depending, equally bad. May believe in God, but not necessarily.

As for myself, the Christian life is its own reward. As for other people, I am accepting of whatever faith they find they helps them through the day. You could say I am personally Christian and otherly Agnostic. It's a stretch, but I could see it. God showed me a path. I am willing to concede he showed other people a different path.

Blueskies wrote:
On another note, trying to blame Mao and Stalin's genocide on their atheism is about the most intellectually dishonest thing you could do.
I was just pointing out Atheists who, without fear of God, were unwanton killers. Trying to twist that into something else is not the most intellectually dishonest thing you have said, but probably top 5. Your greatest intellectual dishonesty has been repeatedly saying 'A belief that there is no God is not a belief, not a faith.' Though, that s--t is so funny I hope you keep saying it.

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January 30th, 2014, 4:46 pm
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Player of the Year - Defense

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Post Re: Noah's Ark, before Noah...
Your definitions are wrong.

a·the·ist
ˈāTHēˌist/Submit
noun
1.
a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.

ag·nos·tic
agˈnästik/Submit
noun
1.
a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena

Everyone who doesn't believe in a particular religion, but does not take nihilistic approach to the discovery of religion is an atheist. It's just that simple.

http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismmyth ... ialGod.htm

Quote:
The most common misunderstanding about atheism involves the definition. Many people insist that atheism is really the denial of the existence of God, but there are two errors here. First, it pretends that atheism is exclusively about their god, the god common to Christians, Jews, and Muslims. Second, it focuses on a narrow sub-set of atheism and atheists to the exclusion of all others. Standard dictionary definitions list "denial of God or gods" second; first comes "disbelief in god or Gods." Disbelief is not the same as denial, it's either the absence of belief or the presence of skepticism.

Comprehensive, unabridged dictionaries use "disbelief in God or gods" when defining atheism. When we take a closer look at "disbelieve," we find two senses: an active and a passive. In the passive sense, "disbelieve" simply means "not believe" - thus a person who disbelieves a claim may simply not accept the truth of the claim without going any further, like asserting the opposite. This broad definition of atheism is not new: atheists have been using it since at least the mid 18th century and dictionaries have been using it since at least the late 19th century.

Is disbelief in an idea the same as believing that the idea isn't true? No: mere disbelief in the truth of a proposition is not equivalent to the belief that the proposition is false and that the opposite is true. If you make a claim and I disbelieve it, I am not necessarily saying that your claim is false. I may not understand it well enough to say one way or the other. I may lack enough information to test your claim. I may simply not care enough to think about it. There are a variety of reasons why I might disbelieve something and the most basic meaning for disbelief is to simply lack belief.

Once it is understood that atheism is merely the absence of belief in any gods, it becomes evident that agnosticism is not, as some assume, a "third way" between atheism and theism. The presence and the absence of a belief in some sort of god exhaust all of the possibilities; thus everyone either has or lacks such a belief. There's nothing in the middle. Agnosticism is not about belief in god but about knowledge — it was coined originally to describe the position of a person who does not claim to know for sure if any gods exist or not.

The more common understanding of atheism among atheists, "not believing in any gods," is often called "weak" or "implicit" atheism. The popular misunderstanding of atheism as the denial and explicit rejection of gods is often called "strong" or "explicit" atheism. The division is not absolute: many people may be weak atheists in general, but strong atheists when it comes to specific gods. Few people are weak atheists with all possible gods; not many more are strong atheists with all possible gods. Much more common is a mix of the two, with each being adopted based upon circumstances.

Often theists will try to place atheism and theism on the same plane by arguing that while theists cannot prove that god exists, atheists also cannot prove that god does not exist. This claim often relies upon the erroneous assumption that all propositions are created equal and mistaken ideas about the definition of atheism. Disbelief in gods does not require faith and disbelieving in the existence of gods does not make a person dogmatic.

Because of atheism's long-standing association with freethought, anti-clericalism, and dissent from religion, many people seem to assume that atheism is the same as anti-religion. This, in turn, seems to lead people to assume that atheism is itself a religion - or at least some sort of anti-religious ideology, philosophy, etc. This is incorrect. Atheism is the absence of theism; by itself, it isn't even a belief, much less a belief system, and as such cannot be any of those things.

Misunderstandings arise because many theists imagine that all atheists fit a narrow, limited concept of atheism. Reliance on dishonest apologists and cheap dictionaries can easily exacerbate the problem. It is also possible that some theists feel that since they are claiming the existence of their god, then anyone who does not agree with them must be claiming the exact opposite — a serious misunderstanding of not only basic logic but also how human beliefs or belief systems operate.


January 30th, 2014, 5:15 pm
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Player of the Year - Defense

Joined: September 13th, 2007, 12:43 pm
Posts: 2785
Post Re: Noah's Ark, before Noah...
Basically think about atheism in the context of employment.

You're either an employee or you're not. You either work for GM or you don't. There's no, "well, I'm sure if I work there."

You're either employed, or unemployed. You're either a theist or an atheist in respect to some or all religions.


January 30th, 2014, 5:23 pm
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