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 Planet X: discussion 
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Post Re: Planet X: discussion
How is posting that video even remotely offensive? Did you actually watch it? Doubt it. I didn't make it, but the guy who did speaks rationally and in a measured way, quoting scripture extensively, and pointing out several gaps in the reasoning of the Blood Moon crowd. It's called Blood Moon Debunked because that's what it aims to do -- that isn't an offensive title. If it had been called, "The Blood Moon Theory is a Crock of **** and Everyone Who Believes it is an Idiot" then OK, sure. But that wasn't what it was called. Watch it, it's only 12 minutes, and you'll likely appreciate the guy's biblical knowledge, which appears to be extensive.


April 15th, 2014, 11:33 am
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Post Re: Planet X: discussion
WarEr4Christ wrote:
Blood Moon movie clip with John Hagee (who I'm not too sure about personally) DEBUNKED!

Really!
Did you watch the YouTube video? It is not John Hagee, it discusses John Hagee.

Speaking of Mr Hagee:
Raw Story wrote:
Pastor John Hagee: Tuesday’s ‘blood moon’ eclipse signals the end of the world
By David Edwards
Monday, April 14, 2014 12:43 EDT

Pastor John Hagee is warning members of his megachurch to prepare for the end of the world because a “blood moon” eclipse on Tuesday is signaling that the End Times could be beginning.

On Tuesday, most of the United States will be treated to the first of four complete lunar eclipses — which scientists call a tetrad — occurring in six month intervals. The eclipses are often referred to as “blood moons” because as sunlight shines on the moon through the Earth’s atmosphere, it gives the moon a red color.

Hagee, pastor of Texas’ Cornerstone Church, has written a book on the phenomenon titled Blood Moons: Something is About to Change. And he is airing a live television event on Tuesday to reveal “direct connections between four upcoming blood-moon eclipses and what they portend for Israel and all of humankind.”

“Is this the end of the age?” Hagee asked during a recent sermon, before quoting Acts 2:19-20: And I will show wonders in Heaven above and signs in the Earth beneath, the sun shall be turned into darkness and the moon into blood before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.”

“I believe that the heavens are God’s billboard, that he has been sending signals to planet Earth,” he explained. “God is literally screaming at the world, ‘I’m coming soon.’”

Hagee predicted that the four eclipses were signaling a “world-shaking event that will happen between April 2014 and October 2015.”

“God sends plant Earth a signal that something big is about to happen! He’s controlling the Sun and the moon right now to send our generation a signal, but the question is, are we getting it?”

Watch the video below from Full Tree Ministries, broadcast April 14, 2014.


Watch the video below from Full Tree Ministries.
(Unable to post video for viewing)
<iframe src="http://videos.rawstory.com/video/The-Four-Blood-Moons-by-John-Ha/player?layout=&amp;read_more=1" width="416" height="321" frameborder="0" scrolling="no"></iframe>

Watch the video below from GeoBeats News.


http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/04/14/p ... the-world/

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April 15th, 2014, 2:00 pm
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Post Re: Planet X: discussion
TheRealWags wrote:
“I believe that the heavens are God’s billboard, that he has been sending signals to planet Earth,” he explained. “God is literally screaming at the world, ‘I’m coming soon.’”


Revelation 22:12 wrote:
Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.


Someone really needs to define what coming soon means please! At least Mr Hagee is trying to narrow it down to a date range.

Let me make a prediction here, in November 2016 John Hagee will reveal that his calculations were off and we will get a new set of dates (Plan B) - shocking... or he will go back and point out some event that happens in the next 1.5 years as being "world-shaking" because it was one of the bigger events that happened in the past 1.5 years and he needs to latch onto something (Plan C) - slightly more plausible but still silly.

Why listen to Hagee when Jesus himself told us clearly that he would return within a generation (Matthew 24:34) - that is one lifetime. Over twenty-five generations has passed my friends (going by my definition of generation). If you go by the Biblical interpretation of a generation (40 years), make that 50 generations that has passed - what's up with that? The first generation was absolutely sure they would see him again, since then they have had to really "streeeeetch" the meaning of "generation" of course or assume he only meant you would see his image in divine pancakes and tortillas.

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April 15th, 2014, 2:43 pm
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Post Re: Planet X: discussion
Okay, I'm back. And btw guys, don't come right out and label me. For one, you don't know me so trying to label me is about as effective as trying to put a bumper sticker on a whale. It doesn't work. Two, I'm a software developer, so I have a very, very busy schedule, hence the reason I do some of the things I do. If I had a ton of free time and wasn't struggling every day to keep a roof over my head by doing the impossible on impossible deadlines I might sit here all day and night working to dig up all the information you seem uninterested in finding. I merely popped off from memory what I'd already learned over the past 2 1/2 years about these various topics during the limited freetime I have between work periods. Ie, lunch breaks and stuff. Normally I back up what I say with lots of links, data, etc, but again, when you're a developer working on major projects with ridiculous deadlines, plus caring for a mother with late stage dementia, freetime typically doesn't exist, and what freetime I do have is used to decompress so I don't burn out.

Now, as for the things I post here, or anywhere for that matter, one thing I will state is that I'm human just like everyone else, which means I make mistakes. One thing you guys posted about a few topics back was the blood moons theory being complete garbage and totally debunked. I myself recently came to that conclusion as well. Why did I believe they were real for so long only to come to the realization they were wrong later on? Well, lack of time mostly, as stated above. When I was a technical writer for a living, research was part of my job, so I got to do all the head hunting and research I wanted. But that's not the case anymore. So when the blood moon info first came out there was limited information available to me and enough of it seemed to line up that I initially gave my nod of approval to it.

However, the theory never set right with me. But as I said, I didn't have time to flesh it out. So since it initially appeared to have enough supporting info I left it be and just accepted it as truth. It was only in the past few days, due to our launch date being pushed back a couple months (which helped me a LOT) that I've had any time to research this. It was at that point that I was able to flesh this out in its entirety and ultimately realized that no, there's no way the blood moon phenomenon could be anything more than a badly formulated cash cow. Yes, I admit I was wrong about this whole thing at the beginning, but I'm at least man enough to admit I was, even if it took me a while to come to that conclusion. Part of the reason for that is, I'm one who sticks by what he believes until firmly convinced otherwise.

So with that said, and since I've been away long enough, plus the fact that this thread has suffered from a bit of Attention Deficit Disorder (SQUIRREL! lol), I think we'd be best to restart this Q&A about PlanetX (or whatever you want to discuss) from the top with a simple list and I'll try to answer things in an orderly fashion complete with as many facts as I can drag together on this. So go ahead and share your questions, and please, let's keep things to the facts and the straight discussion. Once I have your questions I'll research out your points and give you the latest information I have on each of the topics as quickly as I'm able. That includes you, BlueSkies. No facepalms or ridicules. Only honest questions. :P


April 15th, 2014, 9:51 pm
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Post Re: Planet X: discussion
Pablo wrote:
Let me make a prediction here, in November 2016 John Hagee will reveal that his calculations were off and we will get a new set of dates (Plan B) - shocking... or he will go back and point out some event that happens in the next 1.5 years as being "world-shaking" because it was one of the bigger events that happened in the past 1.5 years and he needs to latch onto something (Plan C) - slightly more plausible but still silly.

I'm gonna dive in on this one real quick before departing. John Hagee has been proven to be a false prophet. I didn't know about what he really believed (as I stated in my other post) until recently, but he's clearly a quack and a false prophet out for cash. Mark Biltz who started this whole crazy blood moon madness it turns out is the same thing. In fact, in the process I've ultimately tossed a bunch of people off my watch and listening lists due to the clear falsehoods and lies I've recently learned they espouse. In fact, I think the body count (figuratively speaking) at this point lies at 7 and may grow as I learn more about these so called modern day prophets. There's a few who to this date have given me no reasons to feel uncomfortable, nor has the verifiable information they've given me proven wrong. But as Elrond once said, "Our list of allies grows thin." I would say the same about truthful bible teachers. But that's the beauty if this sifting. It becomes easier and easier by the day to pick out who's legit, and who's just in it for the fame and money.
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Why listen to Hagee when Jesus himself told us clearly that he would return within a generation (Matthew 24:34) - that is one lifetime. Over twenty-five generations has passed my friends (going by my definition of generation). If you go by the Biblical interpretation of a generation (40 years), make that 50 generations that has passed - what's up with that? The first generation was absolutely sure they would see him again, since then they have had to really "streeeeetch" the meaning of "generation" of course or assume he only meant you would see his image in divine pancakes and tortillas.

Okay, this one is easy. You forget that Christ is talking in God's time, not in our understanding. To God a thousand years is as a day. Christ said we're living in the last days. Think about that. Last days by whose definition? Clearly God's. So yes, we've been living in the last days, all 2000 human years, or 48 hours by God's understanding. So the past couple of years have only been a few minutes on his clock. Also, a correction, Christ didn't say he'd return in a generation. He said in Luke 21:32 and Matthew 24:34 that "The generation that sees these things WILL NOT pass away UNTIL these things be fulfilled." Does that mean there's another Methuselah in this world? No. So what things was Christ talking about that needed to happen? Well, let's rewind this and look at the full context spoken of in Matthew 24.
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24 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

29 “Immediately after the distress of those days

“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’[b]

30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[e] is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.


Look closely at that chapter. Verse one speaks of 70ad and the sacking of the temple. But, as is the case with the bible, quite often two different prophesies are run together. Look at Isaiah and his prediction of Christ's first and second coming. Isaiah 61:1 speaks of Christ's first coming, which is what he read in the temple. But if you pay attention he stops short of the second half of the verse (61:2 by our understanding, as their version didn't have chapters or verse) which is his second coming. In verse 3 the disciples ask him a very loaded question which is technically 3 questions in 1. However, I think the real clincher here, which totally destroys the idea of his coming immediately in the first century, is verse 6. "But the end is still to come." So if Christ said that lots would happen before his second coming, why did the first century church believe he was coming back soon?

Well, think about it. What do we preach today about the rapture? We peach that it's imminent, and just as imminent as it was in 33ad. Why? Well, if Christ didn't even know when it was gonna be, and only the Father, then it could have popped on the scene at any time. So they were right in always being ready. But there's also the law of progressive revelation when it comes to the bible. I'm sure that Paul and the other writers of the bible kinda knew what they were writing, but they were looking into a future they knew nothing about and trying to understand it. We have the blessing of hindsight and a much clearer understanding of scripture due to history and something known as "progressive revelation." Ie, time and experience teaching you more later on than you had at the beginning. I mean, you don't expect someone to understand the entirety of particle physics as it's known today in kindergarden. Then one can't expect the church to understand the entirety of the bible in just a few years, even if they're the one who wrote it. Some things can only be understood and discovered through experience, much of which the first century church, and others after them, greatly lacked.

Anyhow, moving on to the other verses, verse 8 really touches well on what I just stated. "All these are the beginning of birth pains." *BEGINNING* Ie, only the start. However, if you follow through with the other verses you end up with a good picture of the last days. However, I think 14 is the real clincher. "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." So the gospel has to go to the WHOLE world FIRST. Now I'm not certain myself if that means before the rapture or during the tribulation, but at some point it has to go out across the entire world, and everyone must be given the choice between Satan or Christ. Nobody will be left without the gospel message, so all will be accountable to make a decision one way or another. This will be important, given that we're living in the 7th and final church age, also known as the Laodacian age.

Now, think about what I just posted above about the gospel needing to be heard by EVERYONE in the world. IE, every single man, woman and child even in the darkest corners of the world. Up until a couple years ago that was physically and technologically impossible. Even with a herculean effort, it wouldn't have been possible before 2010, and certainly not in the last ~2000 years prior to that. Cell phones now make part of this possible, as you can get video, audio, etc just about anywhere with them. Heck, they have cellular service in the middle of Africa where you can't even get power or running water. I kid you not. People in the middle of deepest, darkest Africa have cell service. So with all that being said, I now come full circle to your original statement, and the verse I mentioned. Christ said, "the generation that sees these things will not pass away." So "which" generation was he referring to?

Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it [or he] is near, right at the door. I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. (Matthew 24:32-34)

Well, Christ mentions a fig tree. If you know your biblical symbology, the fig tree represents Israel. A bare tree represents winter, when there is no life, the tree is dormant, the limbs are bare, etc. What was that winter historically? It would be the second diaspora that began in 70ad with the sacking of Jerusalem. The first Diaspora began when Babylon sacked Judah and took them into captivity. Since the sacking of Jerusalem Israel's lands have basically become a wasteland and a desert. Try as they might, nobody could get those lands to produce. Literally nothing would grow, and what little did rarely produced much. However, if you look in your history books, since Israel took back their land in 1948, and then expanded it in 1967, the land has grown, prospered, and bloomed. It's one of the top fruit exporters in the world, the desert is becoming green and the country is growing rich.

Now, as for the generational thing you mentioned, the length of a generation has varied a LOT through history. Today it's about 33 years, as legally accepted around the world. In the time of Christ (as well as other periods of time after that) a generation was quite often as little as 20 years as most people didn't live past 40. In the time of Adam to Noah, generations were hundreds of years in length. However, if you look closely at the text, I don't think he's giving an exact span of time. Then again, there's no verse I'm aware of that actually gives a specific, set in stone length of a generation. All it states is that the "generation" that sees these things will not pass away until everything is fulfilled. It's not talking about the generational span. It's talking about whoever was alive at the time. While I don't have anything concrete to found this on, I'm guessing that whatever generation was alive in 1948 will not pass away until all the prophesies of the last days are fulfilled.

But a lot of people who were alive at the time are dead now. True. But there were children as little as a few days old at the time Jerusalem was founded. If my understanding of this is correct, you only need one of them to survive to the second coming (or the rapture, I'm not sure) for this to be fulfilled, because a generation doesn't officially pass away until the last member of it dies. So if Israel's rebirth is the historical marker that starts the clock to Armageddon, then it will continue to remain until all the events prophesied are fulfilled. Ie, Christ's glorious appearing, aka second coming, part 2. (I'll explain that last part later if you want, but that's a whole teaching all its own) So, does this explain everything for you? If you have any questions, or something wasn't clear, just ask and I'll see what I can do to help you out.


April 15th, 2014, 10:39 pm
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Post Re: Planet X: discussion
I'm going to weigh in here briefly because I don't want to muddy the waters that Steven is trying to do in relation to the questions.

Blue: I did NOT view the video, because you didn't preface it with anything other than the video. This speaks to your delivery in counter-pointing a discussion. What i mean is, you just dropped the video link on the page without prefacing it with anything like, "This Blood Moon Theory has been debunked or called into question, and this video clip will help to explain why...."

I would also like to state that I have not followed the Blood Moon theories with any real interest, and only added that to the discussion because of my surface interest. Contrary to what you might believe, I'm not running around, looking for evidence that the sky is falling. I've heard several people, including Steven, talking about it on many medias, and from the surface, thought it was interesting. BUT, I did not pursue it, because it doesn't really affect my life, nor my life's goals and didn't warrant the attention.

My response that included the word "Really!" was purely reactionary. I saw what you'd posted, and reacted to it, much like in the past, because of how you choose to deliver your retorts, or disdain. So I made an assumption based upon initial reaction, and did not pursue your video to make an accurate statement. I think that can best be summed up as being tired of the bickering, so why involve myself in anything that is going to inflame my emotions anymore.

Finally, I noticed a change in Steve's stance on the Blood Moon theory and privately reached out to him, asking for him to explain why he'd suddenly changed his mind, using the same clip that you'd posted. This is not to say that I was/am a believer in the Blood Moon hysteria, because as I said earlier, it doesn't really affect my life, so I'm not going to start flipping over rocks trying to find evidence, when it's not something that deeply interests me, nor does it grow my faith.

So if an apology is warranted for not following your link, I offer that whole heartedly. I'm tired of the retorts, and negative toned comments, and would hope that we could discuss things without having to call someone an idiot, buffoon, or any other statement meant to injure. You have your non-beliefs and your love of sciences and other things and I don't take issue with that. I, have my beliefs in things that can not be proven in evidence, only experienced in faith, and I'm trying to relay what I know BY experience to those of you that show evidence of interest in Spiritual matters; hence the discussions.

In relations to this story, I again want to say, that I was not, and clearly stated that I was not, qualified to speak on this and so I was relaying info. from Steve to this site, and that I was trying to draw him in. Now he's in, and I'll step out and review the exchange between y'all. Thanks for letting me interject and answer the questions that pertain to me.

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April 16th, 2014, 10:34 am
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Post Re: Planet X: discussion
I have a few questions about Steven's last post.

1. Why do you assume Jesus is speaking in God's idea of time when he's speaking to men and living as a man? Wouldn't he speak in a manner the people he's speaking to would be able to understand?

2. How do we know a day to God is a thousand years to a man? Is there a verse in the Bible that states that? Is there some sort of reference in the Bible that lets you extrapolate God's time in comparison to or own?

3. Why do you believe there are even Church ages to begin with? From what I've read the Bible never says the seven churches are ages, as far as I can tell they are 7 actual churches not some representation of church eras.

4.Even if the Church ages idea is correct, How can you say this is the final age? Every age previously almost assuredly thought they were the final age also.


April 16th, 2014, 12:00 pm
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Post Re: Planet X: discussion
rao wrote:
I have a few questions about Steven's last post.

1. Why do you assume Jesus is speaking in God's idea of time when he's speaking to men and living as a man? Wouldn't he speak in a manner the people he's speaking to would be able to understand?

2. How do we know a day to God is a thousand years to a man? Is there a verse in the Bible that states that? Is there some sort of reference in the Bible that lets you extrapolate God's time in comparison to or own?

3. Why do you believe there are even Church ages to begin with? From what I've read the Bible never says the seven churches are ages, as far as I can tell they are 7 actual churches not some representation of church eras.

4.Even if the Church ages idea is correct, How can you say this is the final age? Every age previously almost assuredly thought they were the final age also.


I actually had the same thoughts on question 3 &4

on Question one, Jesus never taught in "plain English" so to speak. he taught in parable that inspires thought instead of just giving the answer. (in a style VERY similar to Taoism...The teaching meathod, not the message ;) ) Also, as the son of god, Jesus was part of the trinity and when refering to how long the time would be, using god's timeframe actually make sense since he is part of god. I know thats not the best answer you'll get, but hopefully it gives you an idea.

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April 16th, 2014, 12:28 pm
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Post Re: Planet X: discussion
rao wrote:
1. Why do you assume Jesus is speaking in God's idea of time when he's speaking to men and living as a man? Wouldn't he speak in a manner the people he's speaking to would be able to understand?

Jesus was God even while He was man. Remember, He's both at the same time. Plus there was quite often He spoke in parables and in ways that were WAY over the disciples heads. If that seems a bit silly, think about it this way. Ever talked with a scientist about something he's familiar with? Ever been completely floored by the information he's giving you, which is clearly way over your head by miles? Yet that same information that's beyond your ability to grasp is second nature to him and something he considers "elementary"? I've done that quite often to others when discussing computers. I even once had a friend who had some real brainiacs on his staff that were so intelligent that they'd do multi-level algebraic equations to explain the functionality of a boron atom over lunch and considered that "relaxing". Sorta like you doodling mindlessly on a piece of paper. That was their equivalent of that. So imagine how Christ is going to respond to questions when his knowledge is infinite, and ours is not? I mean, sure, He dumbed some stuff down, but God trying to explain to us what was coming would be like Einstein trying to explain E=MC2 to an ant. Not easy, but possible.

Also, what Christ did is not uncommon in the bible. Remember my example about Isaiah? In one verse is pictured both comings of Christ; the first one in which He came to die for everyone that they might be saved, and his second coming when He'd return to claim the throne of David. A good, yet simple way to explain how this would work is to have you imagine that you're looking WAY, WAY off into the distance, and you see something that looks like it's one gigantic mountain with two or three peaks. But after driving a couple hours and getting closer to it, you discover it's really three mountains. But from a distance it looks like one. That's sorta what Isaiah went through when describing what he saw about the future. To him the two events appeared as one. But once time had passed and further revelation had been presented, then the one peak became two. So in short, it's all a matter of perspective. To us those 2000 years are a MASSIVE mountain. To God they're a couple days. Same message, different perspectives.

Quote:
2. How do we know a day to God is a thousand years to a man? Is there a verse in the Bible that states that? Is there some sort of reference in the Bible that lets you extrapolate God's time in comparison to or own?


2 Peter 3:8 (NIV) - "But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day."

Quote:
3. Why do you believe there are even Church ages to begin with? From what I've read the Bible never says the seven churches are ages, as far as I can tell they are 7 actual churches not some representation of church eras.

Eh, this one takes a bit of explaining, probably a good couple hours. I'll give you the cliff notes version, but if you want the full explanation, look up Chuck Missler's teaching on the church ages. I know he covers part of it in his teaching on Revelation, but I believe there's one specifically on the topic. He does a great job of explaining it in all its glory, which you really should look up. But anyways, here's the cliff notes version.

The bible is replete with verses that have multiple applications, and multiple meanings. Ie, the same idea as the old saying, "The bible is shallow enough for a child to wade, or deep enough to drown an elephant." Not every verse has multiple meanings, but there are a number that do. But I'll stop there as that too is a couple hours of explanation. Anyhow, the original letters written to the seven churches are indeed for those seven individual churches. But if you look at church history you also will see how they connect to each other. Just like Nebuchadnezzar's statue was symbolic of the five great kingdoms of history (four have already happened, and there's still one that's about to come into existence), the seven churches were prophetical of history future. However, nobody was able to connect this fact until history played itself out enough to see the connections. Also, as a small aside, which I won't get to at this time, the seven churches also represent seven spiritual conditions of the believer. But again, I won't touch on that as it's a lengthy explanation. Hence my suggesting you listen to Chuck Missler's teachings on this.

Anyhow. of the churches you have Ephesus (Revelation 2:1-7) - the church that had forsaken its first love (2:4), Smyrna (Revelation 2:8-11) - the church that would suffer persecution (2:10), Pergamum (Revelation 2:12-17) - the church that needed to repent (2:16), Thyatira (Revelation 2:18-29) - the church that had a false prophetess (2:20), Sardis (Revelation 3:1-6) - the church that had fallen asleep (3:2), Philadelphia (Revelation 3:7-13) - the church that had endured patiently (3:10), and Laodicea (Revelation 3:14-22) - the church that was lukewarm and insipid (to God) (3:16).

Starting at the beginning, Ephesus was the Apostolic Church of the first century (A.D. 33–100) who really was hyper zealous for Christ, but kinda to a fault. To use football terminology, let's say you're at a Lions game and the guy next to you isn't cheering loud enough. If you were to be Ephesian, you'd pound on the guy because he wasn't cheering loud enough for the Lions. Ie, no matter how much you loved the lions, you'd have no love for anyone else, including your fellow fans. Now, when you get to the Smyrna age, that issue had been corrected in the church. (note, none of the actual events I'm mentioning are written in the bible except as prophesies. You have to go to actual secular and church history to see the fulfillments.) However, as a result of this their effectiveness as a church grew exponentially which drew down even greater persecution than they were already experiencing. This period of hyper persecution lasted from about AD 100 to about AD 312.

Now, if you look at the verses in Revelation that cover this, Rev 2:8-11, it mentions that this church will suffer persecution 10 days. In the bible days don't always mean days. The 1000 years as a day mentioned above is one good example. In that case, a "day for the lord" can last a millennia. For Daniel they were years. In this case it was 10 emperors. A simple bounce through secular history will show you that from AD100 to AD312 there were 10 emperors, all of whom persecuted the church severely. This is where Christians were thrown in the arenas, fed to lions, crucified, set on fire as torches, etc, etc. Pergamum was when Constantine blended Rome, Roman Paganism, and Christianity into a sudo religion that eventually became Roman Catholicism. Thyatira was the period of the dark ages from 590 to about 1517. That encompasses the Holy Roman Empire, the full rise of Roman Catholicism, the dark ages, etc.

The Sardis age began with Luther's 95 Thesis posted on the door of the Castle Church of Wittenberg in 1517. That ended at the dawn of the Philadelphian period in approximately 1750. That was a time of great revival, lots of witnessing, missionary work, etc. It's also the period of the great awakenings. While it didn't have a solid "this is when it ended" date, as Philadelphianism continued on well into the 20th century, the Laodicea Era, or the era of “Higher Criticism", began around 1900 and slowly began to kill off the Phildelphain period which is in operation today.

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4.Even if the Church ages idea is correct, How can you say this is the final age? Every age previously almost assuredly thought they were the final age also.

See my statement above about progressive revelation. With insufficient information, one can easily assume that they're living in the last days, especially if the persecution they're suffering is extreme. But as I said in another post, there was one prophesy that needed to be fulfilled for the end to come, which is that the gospel must be preached to all the world. Since that was not possible until just recently, even if they believed it, today's era is the only time in history when that was possible. So if that criteria has been met (or more correctly is being met in its entirely for the first time in all of history) then it's only in these current times that we can truly say that it's "the last days". Everything else was just a sampling or a shadow of what's to come. Hope that answers you questions.


April 16th, 2014, 5:16 pm
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Post Re: Planet X: discussion
regularjoe12 wrote:
on Question one, Jesus never taught in "plain English" so to speak. he taught in parable that inspires thought instead of just giving the answer. (in a style VERY similar to Taoism...The teaching meathod, not the message ;) ) Also, as the son of god, Jesus was part of the trinity and when refering to how long the time would be, using god's timeframe actually make sense since he is part of god. I know thats not the best answer you'll get, but hopefully it gives you an idea.

Well said, RegularJoe12! Yes, Jesus taught in parables (as I mentioned above) and in complex answers with many facets and multiple levels of meaning. Then again, that's what God does too. Why? Well, I think this verse says it all:

Proverbs 25:2 (KJV) - "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter."

God gives us the answers to whatever we need to know. But He won't just give it to us. It's our job to find the answer. Think of it like an easter egg hunt. Which do you appreciate more? The egg someone gives you, or the egg you have to go find? What about something that was given to you vs something that you had to earn? If I had two cars, both identical, one given to me, and one I earned by the sweat of my brow, which would I take care of? I can tell you right off the bat that the gift car would likely be used as the 'beater" and not treated half as well as the car I earned, which would get babied to the nth degree, even if they were entirely identical down to the last detail. Why? We place higher value something we earn than something we're given. That is why God makes us seek out the answers so that we better appreciate what He's given us. The only exception to this is when we are given things that we ourselves are unable to obtain through any effort of our own. Ie, things that can only be obtained through the sacrifice of another. Salvation is one of those things. We ourselves can in no way earn it. But through Christ's sacrifice it becomes possible for us to obtain it, by accepting His free gift of salvation through His suffering and death. He paid the price for our sins, that we could not ourselves pay, and has thus earned us eternal life. But ONLY if we accept His gift, as a gift does not become yours until you accept it fully and completely without reservation.


April 16th, 2014, 5:28 pm
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Post Re: Planet X: discussion
stevenlake wrote:
rao wrote:
1. Why do you assume Jesus is speaking in God's idea of time when he's speaking to men and living as a man? Wouldn't he speak in a manner the people he's speaking to would be able to understand?

Jesus was God even while He was man. Remember, He's both at the same time. Plus there was quite often He spoke in parables and in ways that were WAY over the disciples heads. If that seems a bit silly, think about it this way. Ever talked with a scientist about something he's familiar with? Ever been completely floored by the information he's giving you, which is clearly way over your head by miles? Yet that same information that's beyond your ability to grasp is second nature to him and something he considers "elementary"? I've done that quite often to others when discussing computers. I even once had a friend who had some real brainiacs on his staff that were so intelligent that they'd do multi-level algebraic equations to explain the functionality of a boron atom over lunch and considered that "relaxing". Sorta like you doodling mindlessly on a piece of paper. That was their equivalent of that. So imagine how Christ is going to respond to questions when his knowledge is infinite, and ours is not? I mean, sure, He dumbed some stuff down, but God trying to explain to us what was coming would be like Einstein trying to explain E=MC2 to an ant. Not easy, but possible.

Also, what Christ did is not uncommon in the bible. Remember my example about Isaiah? In one verse is pictured both comings of Christ; the first one in which He came to die for everyone that they might be saved, and his second coming when He'd return to claim the throne of David. A good, yet simple way to explain how this would work is to have you imagine that you're looking WAY, WAY off into the distance, and you see something that looks like it's one gigantic mountain with two or three peaks. But after driving a couple hours and getting closer to it, you discover it's really three mountains. But from a distance it looks like one. That's sorta what Isaiah went through when describing what he saw about the future. To him the two events appeared as one. But once time had passed and further revelation had been presented, then the one peak became two. So in short, it's all a matter of perspective. To us those 2000 years are a MASSIVE mountain. To God they're a couple days. Same message, different perspectives.

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2. How do we know a day to God is a thousand years to a man? Is there a verse in the Bible that states that? Is there some sort of reference in the Bible that lets you extrapolate God's time in comparison to or own?


2 Peter 3:8 (NIV) - "But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day."

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3. Why do you believe there are even Church ages to begin with? From what I've read the Bible never says the seven churches are ages, as far as I can tell they are 7 actual churches not some representation of church eras.

Eh, this one takes a bit of explaining, probably a good couple hours. I'll give you the cliff notes version, but if you want the full explanation, look up Chuck Missler's teaching on the church ages. I know he covers part of it in his teaching on Revelation, but I believe there's one specifically on the topic. He does a great job of explaining it in all its glory, which you really should look up. But anyways, here's the cliff notes version.

The bible is replete with verses that have multiple applications, and multiple meanings. Ie, the same idea as the old saying, "The bible is shallow enough for a child to wade, or deep enough to drown an elephant." Not every verse has multiple meanings, but there are a number that do. But I'll stop there as that too is a couple hours of explanation. Anyhow, the original letters written to the seven churches are indeed for those seven individual churches. But if you look at church history you also will see how they connect to each other. Just like Nebuchadnezzar's statue was symbolic of the five great kingdoms of history (four have already happened, and there's still one that's about to come into existence), the seven churches were prophetical of history future. However, nobody was able to connect this fact until history played itself out enough to see the connections. Also, as a small aside, which I won't get to at this time, the seven churches also represent seven spiritual conditions of the believer. But again, I won't touch on that as it's a lengthy explanation. Hence my suggesting you listen to Chuck Missler's teachings on this.

Anyhow. of the churches you have Ephesus (Revelation 2:1-7) - the church that had forsaken its first love (2:4), Smyrna (Revelation 2:8-11) - the church that would suffer persecution (2:10), Pergamum (Revelation 2:12-17) - the church that needed to repent (2:16), Thyatira (Revelation 2:18-29) - the church that had a false prophetess (2:20), Sardis (Revelation 3:1-6) - the church that had fallen asleep (3:2), Philadelphia (Revelation 3:7-13) - the church that had endured patiently (3:10), and Laodicea (Revelation 3:14-22) - the church that was lukewarm and insipid (to God) (3:16).

Starting at the beginning, Ephesus was the Apostolic Church of the first century (A.D. 33–100) who really was hyper zealous for Christ, but kinda to a fault. To use football terminology, let's say you're at a Lions game and the guy next to you isn't cheering loud enough. If you were to be Ephesian, you'd pound on the guy because he wasn't cheering loud enough for the Lions. Ie, no matter how much you loved the lions, you'd have no love for anyone else, including your fellow fans. Now, when you get to the Smyrna age, that issue had been corrected in the church. (note, none of the actual events I'm mentioning are written in the bible except as prophesies. You have to go to actual secular and church history to see the fulfillments.) However, as a result of this their effectiveness as a church grew exponentially which drew down even greater persecution than they were already experiencing. This period of hyper persecution lasted from about AD 100 to about AD 312.

Now, if you look at the verses in Revelation that cover this, Rev 2:8-11, it mentions that this church will suffer persecution 10 days. In the bible days don't always mean days. The 1000 years as a day mentioned above is one good example. In that case, a "day for the lord" can last a millennia. For Daniel they were years. In this case it was 10 emperors. A simple bounce through secular history will show you that from AD100 to AD312 there were 10 emperors, all of whom persecuted the church severely. This is where Christians were thrown in the arenas, fed to lions, crucified, set on fire as torches, etc, etc. Pergamum was when Constantine blended Rome, Roman Paganism, and Christianity into a sudo religion that eventually became Roman Catholicism. Thyatira was the period of the dark ages from 590 to about 1517. That encompasses the Holy Roman Empire, the full rise of Roman Catholicism, the dark ages, etc.

The Sardis age began with Luther's 95 Thesis posted on the door of the Castle Church of Wittenberg in 1517. That ended at the dawn of the Philadelphian period in approximately 1750. That was a time of great revival, lots of witnessing, missionary work, etc. It's also the period of the great awakenings. While it didn't have a solid "this is when it ended" date, as Philadelphianism continued on well into the 20th century, the Laodicea Era, or the era of “Higher Criticism", began around 1900 and slowly began to kill off the Phildelphain period which is in operation today.

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4.Even if the Church ages idea is correct, How can you say this is the final age? Every age previously almost assuredly thought they were the final age also.

See my statement above about progressive revelation. With insufficient information, one can easily assume that they're living in the last days, especially if the persecution they're suffering is extreme. But as I said in another post, there was one prophesy that needed to be fulfilled for the end to come, which is that the gospel must be preached to all the world. Since that was not possible until just recently, even if they believed it, today's era is the only time in history when that was possible. So if that criteria has been met (or more correctly is being met in its entirely for the first time in all of history) then it's only in these current times that we can truly say that it's "the last days". Everything else was just a sampling or a shadow of what's to come. Hope that answers you questions.



1. Jesus speaking without concern for the understanding of the people seems pretty odd given he's trying to save everyone and supposedly has some greater god like understanding of the world. I would think with his abundance of knowledge he would know of a way to "dumb" things down for his people, but I'll just assume your right and he was unable to do that or didn't feel it was necessary.

2. Now the part about that 1000 years doesn't jibe with what I see. I don't see how you can interpret 3:8 so literal. The verse says "is like" not "is" and continues with a reverse of the same statement. What that says to me is God doesn't view time as we do and is not bound by any concept of time since to God there is no difference between a day and a thousand years.

3. I don't see the comparison of Nebuchadnezzar's statue with the 7 churches. Nebuchadnezzar's statue was part of a dream and in the Bible it tells of how Daniel interprets the dream. The 7 churches in the Bible are actual churches in the world, not dreams and I don't believe there is any where in the Bible that these places are used symbolically for eras of time. The only way I can see someone using the 7 churches in that way is if they are doing it themselves free from anything in the Bible saying to do so. The entire idea of the 7 churches representing eras in time looks to me to be nothing more than someone trying to find symbolism where there was none. With the amount of time that has past since the Bible was written you could probably make a case for every verse in the Bible to be some symbolic reference to a portion of time or a particular place. Its no different from people finding symbolism in things that happen in a movie even when the director had no intention of there being something there.

4. What I'm getting from your answer to this questions is there really is no way to know if this were the final age and that we really have no more of a reason to believe it is than the people before us did. Just because technology has made it easier to reach people around the world with a phone call it wasn't any less possible before. If people can live in an area then other people could have traveled there since the creation of sea travel. Even with cell phones and the such you would still first need to get the person the phone, so it still requires travel to the area.


April 16th, 2014, 6:59 pm
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Post Re: Planet X: discussion
I'm really exhausted right now (just did my second funeral in three days with long hours on both, so if I don't make sense in this reply, I apologize, but I'm gonna give it my best try to answer.
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1. Jesus speaking without concern for the understanding of the people seems pretty odd given he's trying to save everyone and supposedly has some greater god like understanding of the world. I would think with his abundance of knowledge he would know of a way to "dumb" things down for his people, but I'll just assume your right and he was unable to do that or didn't feel it was necessary.

Well, there's two sides to this. One, yes, Jesus wanted people to get saved. But he knew in advance who would accept him and who wouldn't. Those that would were given understanding of what they needed to know. Those who weren't, didn't. Matthew 13:11 (KJV) - "He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given." He didn't hide the secrets from them so they couldn't understand. He did it because he knew they wouldn't accept the truth even if it was presented to them in plain speech. God knew before the dawn of time who would accept Christ and who wouldn't. This is just Him following through on that knowledge.

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2. Now the part about that 1000 years doesn't jibe with what I see. I don't see how you can interpret 3:8 so literal. The verse says "is like" not "is" and continues with a reverse of the same statement. What that says to me is God doesn't view time as we do and is not bound by any concept of time since to God there is no difference between a day and a thousand years.

Correct you are. God is outside of time, so 1 second and a billion years are all the same. What is being given here is an idiom, just like with God calling a year a "day" in Daniel and other places. Some of this can be better understood through the eyes of numerology. But again, that's another 3-4 hour study just to explain all the elements of it, so short of doing a seminary level lecture, I'll try to make this as simple as possible and say that, while there is only two places that directly reference the thousand years as a day idea, (Psalm 90:4 is another, which reads: "A thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night.") there are at least, off the top of my head, I believe 17 verses that indirectly reference it by other means. But again, it's a Jewish idiom from antiquity that to us doesn't have the same meaning as it did to them. So you have to think 1st century Jew or Israelite from antiquity to fully understand it. (and Jews loved to use idioms just like we do)

Let me give you a bigger example of what I mean right from the Jewish feast calendar. There's a holiday they celebrate which is their equivalent of New Years called "Yom Kippur" or "Feast of Trumpets". In the time of Christ it was known by both of those names, as well as several idioms, one of which was the Feast that "no man knows the day or the hour of." Sound familiar? To expound on this a bit, the Feast of Trumpets is a festival that begins ONLY up the sighting by two witnesses of the new moon on either one of two days each year. So you didn't know which day it would happen on, or what hour, because it's beginning depended entirely on human observation and decision making, and not a fixed date/time on the calendar. Also, the "Feast of Trumpets" is an idiom itself of sorts. Why? Well, Yom Kippur is announced/begun by the sounding of 100 trumpets in incremental blasts of 3 long or 9 short adding up to 99. The 100th trumpet is called "The Last Trumpet". If you know your bible verses, that's a reference to the rapture. So as you can see, the bible is full of idioms that relate to a lot of different things.

You just have to know the culture and the context it was given in to fully understand what was being said. It's sorta like our modern day use of "Turkey Day" to refer to Thanksgiving. In a sense it's the same thing. But if you didn't know American history or culture, Turkey Day itself wouldn't mean the same thing as if you did know all about American culture and tradition. The same is true with the bible. There are many things that are culturally and contextually connected to the Jewish people and their culture. So if you don't know all the history and culture related to them, or in the case of the patriarchs, the culture and traditions of the time, things like that don't make much sense.

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3. I don't see the comparison of Nebuchadnezzar's statue with the 7 churches. Nebuchadnezzar's statue was part of a dream and in the Bible it tells of how Daniel interprets the dream.

The statue dream was used as an example to compare how the seven churches apply to 1) the churches themselves, 2) the various spiritual conditions found all throughout the church, and 3) actual church ages. It's not connected to the churches except as an example, as the 5 part statue of Nebuchadnezzar also referred to a series of ages, or more accurately, empires. So it was used as a comparison, not a relation.

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The 7 churches in the Bible are actual churches in the world

Agreed. I never said they weren't.
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not dreams and I don't believe there is any where in the Bible that these places are used symbolically for eras of time. The only way I can see someone using the 7 churches in that way is if they are doing it themselves free from anything in the Bible saying to do so. The entire idea of the 7 churches representing eras in time looks to me to be nothing more than someone trying to find symbolism where there was none. With the amount of time that has past since the Bible was written you could probably make a case for every verse in the Bible to be some symbolic reference to a portion of time or a particular place. Its no different from people finding symbolism in things that happen in a movie even when the director had no intention of there being something there.

See my previous statement about the multiple meanings of a number of things in the bible. While not every verse is a "loaded answer", so to speak, there are quite a few, and the 2nd and 3rd chapter of Revelation (actually, most of the book TBH) are loaded answers as they have multiple levels of meaning. And you can't say that God wouldn't use words and phases with multiple meanings, because we do it all day every day. Our very conversations are loaded with multiple meanings, idioms, and hidden references, both subtle and not so much. So therefore if we do it, how much more God?

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4. What I'm getting from your answer to this questions is there really is no way to know if this were the final age and that we really have no more of a reason to believe it is than the people before us did.

Again, progressive revelation. Everything is given in its order over time. The answers might be there, but that doesn't mean we'll see and understand them right away. I mean, look at science itself for an example of this. We didn't go to the moon until the 1970's. We didn't have steam power until the 1700's (technically we had it before then, but it wasn't useful. It was just a novelty) Boats have progressively improved through the ages, both in size, complexity and refinement. Cars started out as "horseless carriages" with anemic little motors. Today we break the sound barrier with them. We didn't unlock the power of the atom until the 1940's. Man takes time to unlock all the mysteries that are before him. So you can't think that just because God has laid everything out for us in the present era that we'd find it all right away. A lot of the mysteries that were found in just the past two centuries alone could only be discovered if the right context were present. Take this for example.

What if, and this isn't there, I'm just using this as an example, the bible said that men everywhere would be swallowed by great iron eagles and cast into the sky to ride upon the wind? If people hadn't seen airplanes, which is what that would refer to, how are they going to know what that verse would mean until they'd seen an aircraft? Again, it all comes down to context, context, context. It's kinda the same idea as teaching a child how to read. You can't expect them to understand what words are until they understand what letters are. The same is true with the bible. You can't be expected to understand certain elements of it until you have the required information needed to understand the verse in its full context, and with the bible, context is everything.

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Just because technology has made it easier to reach people around the world with a phone call it wasn't any less possible before. If people can live in an area then other people could have traveled there since the creation of sea travel. Even with cell phones and the such you would still first need to get the person the phone, so it still requires travel to the area.

That's true, but given that up until a few hundred years ago it took months just to go from New York to Washington DC on horseback, do you really think the gospel had the ability to go to every single corner of the world like it does today? It could have, but given the herculean effort it took just to cross what little distances they crossed and talk to what few people they could, I don't really see how it would be possible. Not with the technology available in the day. It took centuries just to spread the word across Europe and parts of Asia. I can't even imagine how much effort would be required to reach the entire world before the modern era. Especially since most of the world wasn't even known about, discovered, or became accessible to Christianity until after the end of the dark ages.


April 16th, 2014, 9:14 pm
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Post Re: Planet X: discussion
If I might chime in on the statue and the ages, I believe that there is a correlation between the ages and eras.

The statue starts Gold (head), then goes to silver(chest and arms), then bronze(belly and thighs), iron(legs), part iron and part clay (feet)

Daniel 2:36 - 43, "This was the dream, and now we will interpret it to the king. You O king, are the king of kings(note SMALL k's). The God of heaven has given you dominion and power and might and glory; in your hands he has placed mankind and the beasts of the field and the birds of the air. Wherever they live, he has made you ruler over them all. You are that head of Gold (Babylonian age 626bc - 539bc). After you, another kindom will rise inferior to yours. (Medo-Persian age 539bc - 330bc: Silver), Next, a third kindom one of bronze (Greek, 330bc - 63bc.), will rule over the whole earth. Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom (Rome 63bc - present), strong as iron - for iron breaks and smashes everything - and as iron breaks things to pieces, so it will crush and break all the others. Just as you saw that the feet and toes were partly of baked clay andpartly of iron, so this will be a di ided kingdom; yet it will have some of the strength of iron in it, even as you saw iron mixed iwth clay. As the toes were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle. And just as you saw the iron mixed with the baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will notremain united, any more than iron mixes with clay."

Rome was never destroyed as a nation, it was fractured into pieces. It became the "church" under Constantine, ie the Roman Catholic Church. One of the largest world religions, if not the largest. It knows no boundaries of nations, and the Holy City is declared it's own national territory free and clear of any world nation. Because this Clay and Iron make up describes the "church age", and the Roman Catholic Church is the "mother" of organized religion to date. Several churches and religions have been birthed out of her over time, and these are separate and mixed with the people. When the "Church" comes back together in unity, (see one world religion movements to date) you can know that we are in that final stage.

The rock spoken of in Daniel 2 crushes the feet of the statue, causing it to topple over and break into pieces, and the wind blows it away except for a remnant.

1. Jesus is known as the Rock of Salvation
2. Daniel 2 says the Rock that causes the fall of human kingdoms grows to become a mountain (Daniel 2:35).
3. The Rock that becomes the mountain is the Divine Kingdom of God established through the return of Jesus that will never be destroyed, nor left to another people. It will destroy all others and will itself endure forever. (Daniel 2:44)

So in looking at this break down you can see the "ages" of mankind. The church age, comes from the birth of the church! Acts 2 speaks of the fellowship of the believers and how the numbers grew daily. From that point on and into the book of Romans, the Apostle Paul who was a persecutor at first and through his conversion became Paul, ministered and preached among the Gentiles (non Jews). Because of what God has done through Jesus, we Gentiles are allowed to participate in the promises of God, through the acceptance of Jesus' offer of salvation and eternal life. The Jewish age has been set aside after the Crucifixion of Jesus, and will not return to the Jewish age again until the "Adopted brother Gentiles" have been gathered and removed.

The Church age began with the 12 Disciples after the Resurrection of Jesus Christ and His assencion into Heaven. Matthew 28:20, Go and make disciples.... is the directive to the church, marching orders if you will. The end of this "Church Age" will come with the Rapture, where the church will be "harvested" from among the lands. When that happens is anybody's guess, not even Jesus himself knows the time for that. BUT, in the parable of the 12 virgins, we are cautioned to make every preparation as if it will be today, so that when the "bridegroom" does arrive, we are not caught by surprise and left out of the wedding.
I hope that answers your question about the age, including that of the church.

_________________
2 Chronicles 10:14, "if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land."


April 17th, 2014, 8:57 am
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Post Re: Planet X: discussion
stevenlake wrote:
Okay, this one is easy. You forget that Christ is talking in God's time, not in our understanding. To God a thousand years is as a day. Christ said we're living in the last days. Think about that. Last days by whose definition? Clearly God's. So yes, we've been living in the last days, all 2000 human years, or 48 hours by God's understanding. So the past couple of years have only been a few minutes on his clock. Also, a correction, Christ didn't say he'd return in a generation. He said in Luke 21:32 and Matthew 24:34 that "The generation that sees these things WILL NOT pass away UNTIL these things be fulfilled." Does that mean there's another Methuselah in this world? No. So what things was Christ talking about that needed to happen? Well, let's rewind this and look at the full context spoken of in Matthew 24.


"Easy"? - as I suggested, Christians will quickly begin to "re-interpret" things that don't fall their way and reveal a false prophet. Misdirection works well in magic, not so much in reality unless you really want to believe so hard you are willing to sacrifice common sense. So you are saying that when Jesus was speaking to his people and said "this generation" he was "talking in God's time" and not directly to them? Then let me break this down word for word for you...

Matthew 24:34 wrote:
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.


Well, verily means "in truth", I say unto you means he is speaking directly to those who are listening (and in their terms) - notice he didn't say to God or his Lord speaking in those terms, This generation shall not pass means those listening (or the majority) shall not die, till all these things be fulfilled until all I've claimed will happen has happened.

Pretty black and white, but you don't have to take my word for it...let's see what CS Lewis, considered to be one of the greatest Christian thinkers/apologetics of all time, thought on the subject...

CS Lewis wrote:
“Say what you like, the apocalyptic beliefs of the first Christians have been proved to be false. It is clear from the New Testament that they all expected the Second Coming in their own lifetime. And, worse still, they had a reason, and one which you will find very embarrassing. Their Master had told them so. He shared, and indeed created, their delusion. He said in so many words, 'This generation shall not pass till all these things be done.' And he was wrong. He clearly knew no more about the end of the world than anyone else."


How could this great Christian thinker miss something you claim is so "easy"? To him, and quite frankly to anyone who can read with minimal comprehension, the meaning of that passage was perfectly "clear". Why, because it is clear plain and simple.

Now, please keep in mind this is one of hundreds of verses which have proved to be wrong and clearly show that Jesus isn't the messiah (as his own people, the Jews, clearly knew and know to this day). And it only takes one, feel free to ignore, re-interpret, or fool yourself to maintain your belief system - that is what millions of people of all different faiths have done for generations (in our terms or your Gods). But I will let y'all can get back to blood moons and planet X, I'm not even going there.

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April 17th, 2014, 9:43 am
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Post Re: Planet X: discussion
stevenlake wrote:
I'm really exhausted right now (just did my second funeral in three days with long hours on both, so if I don't make sense in this reply, I apologize, but I'm gonna give it my best try to answer.
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1. Jesus speaking without concern for the understanding of the people seems pretty odd given he's trying to save everyone and supposedly has some greater god like understanding of the world. I would think with his abundance of knowledge he would know of a way to "dumb" things down for his people, but I'll just assume your right and he was unable to do that or didn't feel it was necessary.

Well, there's two sides to this. One, yes, Jesus wanted people to get saved. But he knew in advance who would accept him and who wouldn't. Those that would were given understanding of what they needed to know. Those who weren't, didn't. Matthew 13:11 (KJV) - "He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given." He didn't hide the secrets from them so they couldn't understand. He did it because he knew they wouldn't accept the truth even if it was presented to them in plain speech. God knew before the dawn of time who would accept Christ and who wouldn't. This is just Him following through on that knowledge.

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2. Now the part about that 1000 years doesn't jibe with what I see. I don't see how you can interpret 3:8 so literal. The verse says "is like" not "is" and continues with a reverse of the same statement. What that says to me is God doesn't view time as we do and is not bound by any concept of time since to God there is no difference between a day and a thousand years.

Correct you are. God is outside of time, so 1 second and a billion years are all the same. What is being given here is an idiom, just like with God calling a year a "day" in Daniel and other places. Some of this can be better understood through the eyes of numerology. But again, that's another 3-4 hour study just to explain all the elements of it, so short of doing a seminary level lecture, I'll try to make this as simple as possible and say that, while there is only two places that directly reference the thousand years as a day idea, (Psalm 90:4 is another, which reads: "A thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night.") there are at least, off the top of my head, I believe 17 verses that indirectly reference it by other means. But again, it's a Jewish idiom from antiquity that to us doesn't have the same meaning as it did to them. So you have to think 1st century Jew or Israelite from antiquity to fully understand it. (and Jews loved to use idioms just like we do)

Let me give you a bigger example of what I mean right from the Jewish feast calendar. There's a holiday they celebrate which is their equivalent of New Years called "Yom Kippur" or "Feast of Trumpets". In the time of Christ it was known by both of those names, as well as several idioms, one of which was the Feast that "no man knows the day or the hour of." Sound familiar? To expound on this a bit, the Feast of Trumpets is a festival that begins ONLY up the sighting by two witnesses of the new moon on either one of two days each year. So you didn't know which day it would happen on, or what hour, because it's beginning depended entirely on human observation and decision making, and not a fixed date/time on the calendar. Also, the "Feast of Trumpets" is an idiom itself of sorts. Why? Well, Yom Kippur is announced/begun by the sounding of 100 trumpets in incremental blasts of 3 long or 9 short adding up to 99. The 100th trumpet is called "The Last Trumpet". If you know your bible verses, that's a reference to the rapture. So as you can see, the bible is full of idioms that relate to a lot of different things.

You just have to know the culture and the context it was given in to fully understand what was being said. It's sorta like our modern day use of "Turkey Day" to refer to Thanksgiving. In a sense it's the same thing. But if you didn't know American history or culture, Turkey Day itself wouldn't mean the same thing as if you did know all about American culture and tradition. The same is true with the bible. There are many things that are culturally and contextually connected to the Jewish people and their culture. So if you don't know all the history and culture related to them, or in the case of the patriarchs, the culture and traditions of the time, things like that don't make much sense.

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3. I don't see the comparison of Nebuchadnezzar's statue with the 7 churches. Nebuchadnezzar's statue was part of a dream and in the Bible it tells of how Daniel interprets the dream.

The statue dream was used as an example to compare how the seven churches apply to 1) the churches themselves, 2) the various spiritual conditions found all throughout the church, and 3) actual church ages. It's not connected to the churches except as an example, as the 5 part statue of Nebuchadnezzar also referred to a series of ages, or more accurately, empires. So it was used as a comparison, not a relation.

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The 7 churches in the Bible are actual churches in the world

Agreed. I never said they weren't.
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not dreams and I don't believe there is any where in the Bible that these places are used symbolically for eras of time. The only way I can see someone using the 7 churches in that way is if they are doing it themselves free from anything in the Bible saying to do so. The entire idea of the 7 churches representing eras in time looks to me to be nothing more than someone trying to find symbolism where there was none. With the amount of time that has past since the Bible was written you could probably make a case for every verse in the Bible to be some symbolic reference to a portion of time or a particular place. Its no different from people finding symbolism in things that happen in a movie even when the director had no intention of there being something there.

See my previous statement about the multiple meanings of a number of things in the bible. While not every verse is a "loaded answer", so to speak, there are quite a few, and the 2nd and 3rd chapter of Revelation (actually, most of the book TBH) are loaded answers as they have multiple levels of meaning. And you can't say that God wouldn't use words and phases with multiple meanings, because we do it all day every day. Our very conversations are loaded with multiple meanings, idioms, and hidden references, both subtle and not so much. So therefore if we do it, how much more God?

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4. What I'm getting from your answer to this questions is there really is no way to know if this were the final age and that we really have no more of a reason to believe it is than the people before us did.

Again, progressive revelation. Everything is given in its order over time. The answers might be there, but that doesn't mean we'll see and understand them right away. I mean, look at science itself for an example of this. We didn't go to the moon until the 1970's. We didn't have steam power until the 1700's (technically we had it before then, but it wasn't useful. It was just a novelty) Boats have progressively improved through the ages, both in size, complexity and refinement. Cars started out as "horseless carriages" with anemic little motors. Today we break the sound barrier with them. We didn't unlock the power of the atom until the 1940's. Man takes time to unlock all the mysteries that are before him. So you can't think that just because God has laid everything out for us in the present era that we'd find it all right away. A lot of the mysteries that were found in just the past two centuries alone could only be discovered if the right context were present. Take this for example.

What if, and this isn't there, I'm just using this as an example, the bible said that men everywhere would be swallowed by great iron eagles and cast into the sky to ride upon the wind? If people hadn't seen airplanes, which is what that would refer to, how are they going to know what that verse would mean until they'd seen an aircraft? Again, it all comes down to context, context, context. It's kinda the same idea as teaching a child how to read. You can't expect them to understand what words are until they understand what letters are. The same is true with the bible. You can't be expected to understand certain elements of it until you have the required information needed to understand the verse in its full context, and with the bible, context is everything.

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Just because technology has made it easier to reach people around the world with a phone call it wasn't any less possible before. If people can live in an area then other people could have traveled there since the creation of sea travel. Even with cell phones and the such you would still first need to get the person the phone, so it still requires travel to the area.

That's true, but given that up until a few hundred years ago it took months just to go from New York to Washington DC on horseback, do you really think the gospel had the ability to go to every single corner of the world like it does today? It could have, but given the herculean effort it took just to cross what little distances they crossed and talk to what few people they could, I don't really see how it would be possible. Not with the technology available in the day. It took centuries just to spread the word across Europe and parts of Asia. I can't even imagine how much effort would be required to reach the entire world before the modern era. Especially since most of the world wasn't even known about, discovered, or became accessible to Christianity until after the end of the dark ages.


1. Ok, the more I've read about it and from what you and others have said so far I understand that Jesus spoke in parables. Matthew 13:10-11 shows that, but I would like to know where you got that he spoke in ways over the disciples heads. Is there also a verse that states this? Also Matthew 24:32-35 speaks of the parable of the fig tree, but it's pretty obvious when he's speaking 24:34 he is speaking quite distinctly to the people in front of him and the idea he's speaking to another generation is just wishful thinking.

2. It seems we agree here that one day doesn't literally mean 1000 years to Jesus or God only that to God 1000 years and a day are regarded the same just as 100,000 years and a day would be the same to God since he lives outside of time.

3. What I'm saying is it's obvious the statue in the dream was symbolic of something else because it is said to be. No where in the Bible as far as I know, states the 7 churches are symbolic of anything. They are 7 churches Jesus challenges to better follow the spirit of their church and by conquering their challenge they will be rewarded. Their just is no reason to believe these are symbols of eras. There is no hint or suggestion that anyone is to interpret the churches as anything other than 7 actual churches. Just because their is symbolism in the Bible does not mean you can just apply symbolism to anything in the Bible.

4. Difficulty is irrelevant. Even if it felt impossible it still doesn't change that fact that it could have been done if people had embraced Christianity everywhere it was taken. I'd even go so far to say that they succeeded in preaching all over the world already. I'd bet there isn't a continent or island that hasn't already had a Christan visitor.


April 17th, 2014, 11:28 am
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