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 14 years ago... 
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September 11th, 2014, 9:12 am
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Post Re: 13 years ago...
never will - craziest day ever!

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September 11th, 2014, 9:15 am
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Post Re: 14 years ago...
14 years ago.........

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September 11th, 2015, 10:48 am
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Post Re: 14 years ago...
I couldn't forget if I tried.


September 11th, 2015, 11:33 am
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Post Re: 14 years ago...
The visual I remember most is watching all those people jump to their deaths. I will never forget watching the 1st tower burning and wondering if it was an accident or a terrorist attack. And then the 2nd plane hit and removed all doubt.


September 11th, 2015, 11:52 am
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Post Re: 14 years ago...
BillySims wrote:
The visual I remember most is watching all those people jump to their deaths. I will never forget watching the 1st tower burning and wondering if it was an accident or a terrorist attack. And then the 2nd plane hit and removed all doubt.


I didn't have visuals until early evening hours. I drove by my store in the morning and headed to the bank. The first plane hit over the radio and the reports were all that it was an accident. I had friends that worked in the building and surrounding buildings so even as an accident it was a worrisome morning. I did the bank deposit and drove back when the second plane hit and I knew it wasn't an accident. Everyone knew. I scrambled inside and found a radio and then called home. I had taken relatives from Holland to the roof of the towers just the week before and they were still in the country and ended up getting stuck here longer because of the delays.

Hearing the day play out over the radio compared to watching it is a true test of the imagination. And it wasn't any better when I finally saw the footage that night. And being this close to it, I still run into people that were directly effected. There's always someone that lost a family member or knew someone that died that day. And being back at school, the 10yr olds at the time are now in my college classes bringing it to another level again.


September 11th, 2015, 2:05 pm
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Post Re: 14 years ago...
Because of a recent incident with a Bosnian Muslim, I've reverted to the old military slogan that "the only good Muslim is a dead Muslim." Live it and learn it. Or you might be beheaded.

Truth be told, I really liked that girl and she was the first Muslim that I met that I actually liked. She was kind, sweet, and seemed to adapt to America. I later found out otherwise. Never trust a Muslim.

If the libtards feel otherwise, do so at your own peril. I will not grieve for you ever.

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September 15th, 2015, 5:36 am
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Post Re: 14 years ago...
Sly, many of them feel the same way you do towards us. We can continue the hate on both sides, what will that accomplish long term?

BTW - I've meet many Muslims during my days here on Earth, I dare say that most of them I really respect and admire. Funny thing is, that is the truth for most faiths or even those with no faith.

We can look at people as individuals and give them each a chance, or we can put stereotype labels on people and let the hate fester. We can then take every example we see on TV or everyone we meet that fits our preconceived notion (ignoring those that don't fit our stereotypes) and just reinforce our own hatred. What a world that would be...

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September 15th, 2015, 12:05 pm
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Post Re: 14 years ago...
Pablo wrote:
Sly, many of them feel the same way you do towards us. We can continue the hate on both sides, what will that accomplish long term?

BTW - I've meet many Muslims during my days here on Earth, I dare say that most of them I really respect and admire. Funny thing is, that is the truth for most faiths or even those with no faith.

We can look at people as individuals and give them each a chance, or we can put stereotype labels on people and let the hate fester. We can then take every example we see on TV or everyone we meet that fits our preconceived notion (ignoring those that don't fit our stereotypes) and just reinforce our own hatred. What a world that would be...


While I agree that individuals are ultimately responsible for their own actions, and that each person should be judged as an individual, stereotypes exist for a reason. And that reason is truth. While stereotypes may not be an accurate description for all in a singular demographic, they usually can be applied to a good sum of those people. Are all Muslims violent? No. Do all of them want to destroy America or kill Christians? No. But the truth is that many, many Muslims across the globe do hate America because of the freedoms we have and the freedoms we think others should have. We are like the rich kid who is in a school filled with lower middle class to impoverished kids. All of them want to be our friends when they think they can get something out of us. But when we start to dictate terms, they become angry and violent. They suddenly start demanding we do things we don't want or have to do. And the fact is, when you think you are being taken advantage of (rich kid), it is perfectly reasonable to start dictating terms.

It was mentioned that Christians have done things in the name of Christ that involved violence and killing. So how can we say Muslims and Christians are any different from one another? Easy answer. First off, for those who have brought up the Crusades, they were a RESPONSE to Islamic invasion in Christian countries that had been taking place for over 400 years. Secondly, in most cases where Christians do something 'in the name of God', they act as individuals. And after they commit their atrocity, you will find Christians who will loudly denounce their actions. In the case of atrocities being committed by Muslims, how often is it an individual act vs. a planned, organized attack by a group? Of course there have been individual Muslim attacks (Fort Hood), but those are the exceptions, not the rule. And how loudly have you heard ANY protests from Muslims over what has been happening? Silence speaks volumes. Silence from the passive or undecided masses is what has allowed genocide to take place across this globe since the beginning of time.

And before anyone wants to point to Hitler, or the KKK, and say that they were Christians acting in the name of Christ, think again. Hitler used the hatred of Jews for political motivation only. He was never a Christian. He used the Passion Plays to continue stirring up hatred of Jews in Europe to push toward his Final Solution. And it all was based on the idea that he felt Jewish politicians in Germany during WW1 surrendered too soon and gave up too much. It was entirely political. As for the KKK, they have persecuted other Christians. Everybody knows their agenda was NEVER one driven by Christ, or based on passages from the Bible. Theirs was always based on racism, and the idea that slavery should have continued to exist in America. No place in the New Testament does it state that killing someone based on skin color is to be encouraged. No place in the New Testament does it say enslaving someone is acceptable Christian practice.

However, anyone who has seen or read the Quran knows what is contained therein. As Sly said, it is not a Holy Book, it is basically a declaration of war against any who don't believe in the contents. It is an instruction booklet for killing infidels, punishing those who don't follow their Sharia law, and for keeping women as second class citizens. That book was written by a baby raping warlord, and the passages reflect it. Now read the New Testament, specifically the passages of the teachings and messages directly from Jesus Christ. None of it reflects hatred. None of it reflects enslavement. None of it reflects inflicting pain and suffering to others.

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November 29th, 2015, 12:05 pm
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Post Re: 14 years ago...
Have you read the Quran? It does say that you can fight against those who create war with you but also stresses even in these cases you can't fight against women, children or the innocent.

You look at Christianity through a lens that you easily discount Hitler and the KKK. I guess the Crusades can be discounted along with the inhalation of the "savages" in the new world (both North and South America). Forget what the did to Pagans, whom they called witches or warlocks. When you look at Muslims, you look through the reverse lens and amplify everything instead.

In reality, I'm not in favor of either - too many atrocities have been committed on both sides. I'm only pointing out what most of you seem to miss - that it is on both sides. Both have both peach and violence wrapped around them.

Those who have studied both the Quaran and Bible have found the Bible contains nearly three times as many violent passages. This isn't surprising, however, because it is a bigger book. Remember Coke and Pepsi, well it applies here. I'm trying to open you eyes because there are similar issues on both sides - let's look at some passages:

Quaran:

“O You who believe! Enter absolutely into peace (Islam). Do not follow in the footsteps of satan. He is an outright enemy to you.” (Holy Quran: 2, 208)

“You cannot guide those you would like to but God guides those He wills. He has best knowledge of the guided.” (Holy Quran/28: 56)

“God does not forbid you from being good to those who have not fought you in the religion or driven you from your homes, or from being just towards them. God loves those who are just.” (Surat al-Mumtahana, 8)

“We have appointed a law and a practice for every one of you. Had God willed, He would have made you a single community, but He wanted to test you regarding what has come to you. So compete with each other in doing good. Every one of you will return to God and He will inform you regarding the things about which you differed.” (Surat al-Ma’ida, 48)

“God does not love corruption”. (Surat al-Baqara, 205)

"Of those who answered the call of Allah and the messenger, even after being wounded, those who do right and refrain from wrong have a great reward." (Chapter 3, verse 172)

Bible:

1. Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the [holy man] who represents God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged.

2. I decided to order a man to lead the prayer and then take a flame to burn all those, who had not left their houses for the prayer, burning them alive inside their homes.

3. I will fill your mountains with the dead. Your hills, your valleys, and your streams will be filled with people slaughtered by the sword. I will make you desolate forever. Your cities will never be rebuilt. Then you will know that I am God.

4. Fight them until there is no more [disbelief or worshipping of other gods] and worship is for God alone.

5. Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother-in-law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

6. Whoso fighteth in the way of God, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward.

7. Make ready to slaughter [the infidel’s] sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants.

8. [God’s messenger]... was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The [holy man] replied, "They [women and children] are from them [unbelievers]."

9. Then I heard God say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children.”

10. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.

11. Keep [my holiday], for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die.

12. The punishment of those who wage war against God and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement.

13. If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death.

14. It is not for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war until he had made a great slaughter in the land...

15. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

16. I shall terrorize the [heathens]. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them, because they oppose God and his apostle.

17. A [holy man’s] daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death.

18. So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them.

19. Everyone who would not seek God was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.

20. And when We wish to destroy a town, We send Our commandment to the people of it who lead easy lives, but they transgress therein; thus the word proves true against it, so We destroy it with utter destruction.

21. But if [a girl wasn't a virgin on her wedding night] and evidence of the girl's virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her father’s house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against God’s people by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst.

22. The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say, "O [believer]! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

23. If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you.

24. God’s Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but God."

25. Cursed be he who does God’s work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood.

26. God said, "A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. [Prophet], you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But God desires killing them to manifest the religion."

27. Anyone who blasphemes God’s name must be stoned to death by the whole community of [believers].

28. When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withhold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) [your religion]; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them... If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them [a tax]. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek God's help and fight them.

29. Anyone else who goes too near the [Holy Place] will be executed.

30. Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us.

I know I'm wasting my time, you believe in what you want to believe. Until both sides address their own issues, we will continue in the same fight as we have been in for thousands of years and the result is more tragic human deaths. What a sad world our "Gods" created - we would be much better off without them and worshiped each other instead!

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November 29th, 2015, 12:53 pm
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Post Re: 14 years ago...
Pablo wrote:
Have you read the Quran? It does say that you can fight against those who create war with you but also stresses even in these cases you can't fight against women, children or the innocent.

You look at Christianity through a lens that you easily discount Hitler and the KKK. I guess the Crusades can be discounted along with the inhalation of the "savages" in the new world (both North and South America). Forget what the did to Pagans, whom they called witches or warlocks. When you look at Muslims, you look through the reverse lens and amplify everything instead.

In reality, I'm not in favor of either - too many atrocities have been committed on both sides. I'm only pointing out what most of you seem to miss - that it is on both sides. Both have both peach and violence wrapped around them.

Those who have studied both the Quaran and Bible have found the Bible contains nearly three times as many violent passages. This isn't surprising, however, because it is a bigger book. Remember Coke and Pepsi, well it applies here. I'm trying to open you eyes because there are similar issues on both sides - let's look at some passages:

Quaran:

“O You who believe! Enter absolutely into peace (Islam). Do not follow in the footsteps of satan. He is an outright enemy to you.” (Holy Quran: 2, 208)

“You cannot guide those you would like to but God guides those He wills. He has best knowledge of the guided.” (Holy Quran/28: 56)

“God does not forbid you from being good to those who have not fought you in the religion or driven you from your homes, or from being just towards them. God loves those who are just.” (Surat al-Mumtahana, 8)

“We have appointed a law and a practice for every one of you. Had God willed, He would have made you a single community, but He wanted to test you regarding what has come to you. So compete with each other in doing good. Every one of you will return to God and He will inform you regarding the things about which you differed.” (Surat al-Ma’ida, 48)

“God does not love corruption”. (Surat al-Baqara, 205)

"Of those who answered the call of Allah and the messenger, even after being wounded, those who do right and refrain from wrong have a great reward." (Chapter 3, verse 172)

Bible:

1. Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the [holy man] who represents God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged.

2. I decided to order a man to lead the prayer and then take a flame to burn all those, who had not left their houses for the prayer, burning them alive inside their homes.

3. I will fill your mountains with the dead. Your hills, your valleys, and your streams will be filled with people slaughtered by the sword. I will make you desolate forever. Your cities will never be rebuilt. Then you will know that I am God.

4. Fight them until there is no more [disbelief or worshipping of other gods] and worship is for God alone.

5. Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother-in-law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

6. Whoso fighteth in the way of God, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward.

7. Make ready to slaughter [the infidel’s] sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants.

8. [God’s messenger]... was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The [holy man] replied, "They [women and children] are from them [unbelievers]."

9. Then I heard God say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children.”

10. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.

11. Keep [my holiday], for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die.

12. The punishment of those who wage war against God and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement.

13. If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death.

14. It is not for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war until he had made a great slaughter in the land...

15. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

16. I shall terrorize the [heathens]. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them, because they oppose God and his apostle.

17. A [holy man’s] daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death.

18. So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them.

19. Everyone who would not seek God was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.

20. And when We wish to destroy a town, We send Our commandment to the people of it who lead easy lives, but they transgress therein; thus the word proves true against it, so We destroy it with utter destruction.

21. But if [a girl wasn't a virgin on her wedding night] and evidence of the girl's virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her father’s house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against God’s people by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst.

22. The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say, "O [believer]! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

23. If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you.

24. God’s Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but God."

25. Cursed be he who does God’s work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood.

26. God said, "A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. [Prophet], you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But God desires killing them to manifest the religion."

27. Anyone who blasphemes God’s name must be stoned to death by the whole community of [believers].

28. When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withhold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) [your religion]; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them... If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them [a tax]. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek God's help and fight them.

29. Anyone else who goes too near the [Holy Place] will be executed.

30. Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us.

I know I'm wasting my time, you believe in what you want to believe. Until both sides address their own issues, we will continue in the same fight as we have been in for thousands of years and the result is more tragic human deaths. What a sad world our "Gods" created - we would be much better off without them and worshiped each other instead!


Cherry picking Pablo? Really? How many of those Bible passages are from the Old Testament? Let me remind you, that the Old Testament is NOT the basis of Christianity. Is it part of the Bible? Yes. But remember CHRISTianity is based on the teachings of CHRIST.

What atrocities on the scale of the wholesale slaughter taking place in Syria, Pakistan, Somalia in current day is being done by Christians? What mass executions, beheadings, burnings, stonings, honor killings, etc. are being done by Christians in the modern age?

Let's try to stick with current events, shall we? Is the Christian church perfect? No. Are they as violent as the Islamic church? No. You can deny that all you want, but all you need do is look to the New York skyline as a reminder. Or maybe pick up a newspaper and read a headline.

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November 29th, 2015, 3:03 pm
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Post Re: 14 years ago...
I agree with the gist of your points, m2K, but in the interest of fairness, I'll correct a few things:

Quote:
But the truth is that many, many Muslims across the globe do hate America because of the freedoms we have and the freedoms we think others should have.


In the sense that we're infidels, sure. But the idea that they "hate our freedoms" doesn't sit well with me. Islam is about 1300 years old. The United States is about 240 years old. Yet Islamic violence committed against the United States only goes back about 50 years. Why is that? Coincidence? No. Rather it is largely a byproduct of our meddling in the region.

Quote:
First off, for those who have brought up the Crusades, they were a RESPONSE to Islamic invasion in Christian countries that had been taking place for over 400 years.


Well, the thrust of most of the crusades was to conqueror Jerusalem -- an area that had never been under Christian control. It wasn't to take back Spain or anything similar. It was highly organized at the behest of the Pope -- not individuals. I would also encourage you to read up on the Northern Crusades -- a series of conquests by the Teutonic Knights against the pagans of Germany.

The solution to solving Islamic violence is fairly simple, really: Stop using oil.


November 29th, 2015, 4:41 pm
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Post Re: 14 years ago...
Blueskies wrote:
I agree with the gist of your points, m2K, but in the interest of fairness, I'll correct a few things:

Quote:
But the truth is that many, many Muslims across the globe do hate America because of the freedoms we have and the freedoms we think others should have.


In the sense that we're infidels, sure. But the idea that they "hate our freedoms" doesn't sit well with me. Islam is about 1300 years old. The United States is about 240 years old. Yet Islamic violence committed against the United States only goes back about 50 years. Why is that? Coincidence? No. Rather it is largely a byproduct of our meddling in the region.


It's no coincidence. It was never feasible prior to that time. If a group wanted to attack the United States, they'd have to take a ship to get here. No a feasible way to attack. Prior to Howard Hughes pushing aviation, passenger jets flew at about 7000 feet, which made passengers fearful and it wasn't really a viable enterprise. The advent of larger and higher altitude planes changed the ability to move people around. And the costs at the time were too expensive for most to take the flights. Over time it's become accessible to all, but more than 50 years ago? Nope.

But I agree that part of it is our involvement in the area, but the majority reason was lack of opportunity.


November 29th, 2015, 7:10 pm
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Post Re: 14 years ago...
Blueskies, you're wrong yet again. Remember the Barbary Pirates during Thomas Jefferson's term in office? Where do you think parts of the Marine Corps anthem came from? "From the Halls of Montezuma To the shores of Tripoli" Ignorance must truly be bliss.

Muslims have been fighting a jihad against the infidels since 622 AD. Anyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot and should be beheaded by those they support. Sorry. Not Sorry.

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November 30th, 2015, 6:49 am
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Post Re: 14 years ago...
Pablo wrote:
Sly, many of them feel the same way you do towards us. We can continue the hate on both sides, what will that accomplish long term?

BTW - I've meet many Muslims during my days here on Earth, I dare say that most of them I really respect and admire. Funny thing is, that is the truth for most faiths or even those with no faith.

We can look at people as individuals and give them each a chance, or we can put stereotype labels on people and let the hate fester. We can then take every example we see on TV or everyone we meet that fits our preconceived notion (ignoring those that don't fit our stereotypes) and just reinforce our own hatred. What a world that would be...


I really need to respond to this. I've known or worked with over 200 Muslims in my life. Out of those, I've actually liked three.. Three. And one of those stabbed me in the back. Since most Muslims tend to congregate together and not reach out to Americans, why should we? I've tried, but it's a losing proposition.

3 out of over 200 is 1.5% at best and one of the "good" ones turned on me. Common sense says to play the percentages, so guess what I'm gonna do? Remember the Who song, "Won't get fooled again"? I suggest that you and everyone else do likewise.

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November 30th, 2015, 7:04 am
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