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 14 years ago... 
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Post Re: 14 years ago...
slybri19 wrote:
Pablo wrote:
Sly, many of them feel the same way you do towards us. We can continue the hate on both sides, what will that accomplish long term?

BTW - I've meet many Muslims during my days here on Earth, I dare say that most of them I really respect and admire. Funny thing is, that is the truth for most faiths or even those with no faith.

We can look at people as individuals and give them each a chance, or we can put stereotype labels on people and let the hate fester. We can then take every example we see on TV or everyone we meet that fits our preconceived notion (ignoring those that don't fit our stereotypes) and just reinforce our own hatred. What a world that would be...


I really need to respond to this. I've known or worked with over 200 Muslims in my life. Out of those, I've actually liked three.. Three. And one of those stabbed me in the back. Since most Muslims tend to congregate together and not reach out to Americans, why should we? I've tried, but it's a losing proposition.

3 out of over 200 is 1.5% at best and one of the "good" ones turned on me. Common sense says to play the percentages, so guess what I'm gonna do? Remember the Who song, "Won't get fooled again"? I suggest that you and everyone else do likewise.

Anecdotes are fun! My turn:

I've lived amongst millions of muslims and met several hundred of them. Let's say for the sake of consistency that it's 200. I had issues with approximately 3. If my math (and yours) is correct, that's exactly the same 1.5% as your example. I guess that means my story mathematically cancels yours out. Yay anecdotes!

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November 30th, 2015, 10:02 am
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Post Re: 14 years ago...
slybri19 wrote:
Pablo wrote:
Sly, many of them feel the same way you do towards us. We can continue the hate on both sides, what will that accomplish long term?

BTW - I've meet many Muslims during my days here on Earth, I dare say that most of them I really respect and admire. Funny thing is, that is the truth for most faiths or even those with no faith.

We can look at people as individuals and give them each a chance, or we can put stereotype labels on people and let the hate fester. We can then take every example we see on TV or everyone we meet that fits our preconceived notion (ignoring those that don't fit our stereotypes) and just reinforce our own hatred. What a world that would be...


I really need to respond to this. I've known or worked with over 200 Muslims in my life. Out of those, I've actually liked three.. Three. And one of those stabbed me in the back. Since most Muslims tend to congregate together and not reach out to Americans, why should we? I've tried, but it's a losing proposition.

3 out of over 200 is 1.5% at best and one of the "good" ones turned on me. Common sense says to play the percentages, so guess what I'm gonna do? Remember the Who song, "Won't get fooled again"? I suggest that you and everyone else do likewise.


I've been backstabbed by both Muslims and Christians alike, come to think of it, the only people that haven't backstabbed me (yet) are Sikhs. So, let's all convert to Sikhism.

That's not how things work. I will never say that Islam is good, it is full of hate, selfishness and violence, but so are Christianity, and Judaism (maybe to a lesser extant). If we're going to address the problem of religious extremism, addressing Islam alone would be a half measure, or a 1/3rd measure actually.


November 30th, 2015, 11:33 am
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Post Re: 14 years ago...
slybri19 wrote:
Blueskies, you're wrong yet again. Remember the Barbary Pirates during Thomas Jefferson's term in office? Where do you think parts of the Marine Corps anthem came from? "From the Halls of Montezuma To the shores of Tripoli" Ignorance must truly be bliss.

Muslims have been fighting a jihad against the infidels since 622 AD. Anyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot and should be beheaded by those they support. Sorry. Not Sorry.


I'm not wrong. The Barbary Pirates episode actually proves my point.

The Barbary Pirates were Muslim, but their acts of aggression had nothing to do with their religion. They just wanted ransom and slaves. That's how they made their money. They were not trying to convert sailors to Islam, or kill all the infidels. No different, really, then what the Dutch were doing around the same time, or what the Vikings did 800 years before.

After the Ottomans lost the Battle of Vienna in 1683, the Muslim world was little threat to the West until about 1960 or so. The Middle East was basically a peaceful region.

Then WW1 happened and the Turks foolishly aligned themselves with the Germans. After the war, the British carved up the Ottoman empire into a bunch of smaller states for no particular reason. Zionist Jews started arriving in droves pushing for a Jewish state. The United States started aligning and supporting dictators in the region, most notably the House of Saud.


November 30th, 2015, 2:09 pm
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Post Re: 14 years ago...
m2karateman wrote:
Cherry picking Pablo? Really? How many of those Bible passages are from the Old Testament? Let me remind you, that the Old Testament is NOT the basis of Christianity. Is it part of the Bible? Yes. But remember CHRISTianity is based on the teachings of CHRIST.


Let's start with the crucifixion of Jesus ordained by God, pretty nasty stuff when you consider it was his own son. But if you want me to cherry pick a few lines from the New Testament, no problem:

"Don't imagine that I came to bring peace to the earth! I came not to bring peace, but a sword." Matthew 10:34

"And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing. Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end. And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough." Luke 22:35-38

I could go on and on but feel fee to check out Book of Revelation in the New Testament which I would consider the most violent book in the entire Bible personally.

m2karateman wrote:
What atrocities on the scale of the wholesale slaughter taking place in Syria, Pakistan, Somalia in current day is being done by Christians? What mass executions, beheadings, burnings, stonings, honor killings, etc. are being done by Christians in the modern age?

Let's try to stick with current events, shall we? Is the Christian church perfect? No. Are they as violent as the Islamic church? No. You can deny that all you want, but all you need do is look to the New York skyline as a reminder. Or maybe pick up a newspaper and read a headline.


So you want to "cherry pick" the timing - OK. If you want to look in Africa the past few years you can find a ton of Christian atrocities. Christian militia groups destroyed almost all mosques in the Central African Republic. Last year Amnesty International reported several massacres committed by the Anti-balaka (Christian Group) against Muslim civilians, forcing 1,000s to flee the country (some sources also reported cannibalism). Bangui last year Muslim population dropped from 138,000 to 900 thanks to more Christian militia, aka terrorists. Feel free to check out what the Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda has done in the past decade or so. How bout The Nationalist Socialist Council of Nagaland (NSCN), again Christian, in Northern India who engages in kidnapping, extortion and other terrorist activities along with "ethnic" cleansing. I'm sure you don't pay much attention to most Christian issues around the world...

Now, I'm sure you will want to "cherry pick" location as well after reading that (it is so easy to redefine everything continuously to fit into our belief system isn't it) so lets move closer to home so lets look at our own country and we won't talk about the KKK since you will dismiss them as well. Are all the molestations of young boys and girls by Priests recent enough? Christian Groups like the Army of God who have attacked abortion clinics and doctors across the US. Remember Eric Robert Rudolph, a Christian terrorist who did the bomb at the Atlanta Olympics. A few years ago the Department of Homeland Security said that the Hutaree Christian militia movement possessed more weapons than the combined weapons holdings of all Islamic terror defendants charged in the US since the September 11 attacks.

OK, you want to consider "your church" not "as violent as the Islamic church" using your words then be my guest. Nice measuring stick you are using there. I guess Pol Pot and Attila The Hun aren't so bad when you compare him to Hitler either (whom I know you want to distance from as you've stated in the past despite the fact that he was baptized as a child and confirmed at 15 having been raised by a devout Catholic mother attending a monastery school and was certainly never excommunicated by the church who considered him in good standing and when Hitler publicly proclaimed ""hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord" you pretty much knew where he stood and how he justified his actions).

It is easy to throw stones (by both sides), can we instead look in the mirror first because only then will real change have a chance.

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November 30th, 2015, 3:36 pm
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Post Re: 14 years ago...
Pablo wrote:
Let's start with the crucifixion of Jesus ordained by God, pretty nasty stuff when you consider it was his own son. But if you want me to cherry pick a few lines from the New Testament, no problem:

"Don't imagine that I came to bring peace to the earth! I came not to bring peace, but a sword." Matthew 10:34

"And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing. Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end. And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough." Luke 22:35-38

I could go on and on but feel fee to check out Book of Revelation in the New Testament which I would consider the most violent book in the entire Bible personally.

m2karateman wrote:
What atrocities on the scale of the wholesale slaughter taking place in Syria, Pakistan, Somalia in current day is being done by Christians? What mass executions, beheadings, burnings, stonings, honor killings, etc. are being done by Christians in the modern age?

Let's try to stick with current events, shall we? Is the Christian church perfect? No. Are they as violent as the Islamic church? No. You can deny that all you want, but all you need do is look to the New York skyline as a reminder. Or maybe pick up a newspaper and read a headline.


So you want to "cherry pick" the timing - OK. If you want to look in Africa the past few years you can find a ton of Christian atrocities. Christian militia groups destroyed almost all mosques in the Central African Republic. Last year Amnesty International reported several massacres committed by the Anti-balaka (Christian Group) against Muslim civilians, forcing 1,000s to flee the country (some sources also reported cannibalism). Bangui last year Muslim population dropped from 138,000 to 900 thanks to more Christian militia, aka terrorists. Feel free to check out what the Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda has done in the past decade or so. How bout The Nationalist Socialist Council of Nagaland (NSCN), again Christian, in Northern India who engages in kidnapping, extortion and other terrorist activities along with "ethnic" cleansing. I'm sure you don't pay much attention to most Christian issues around the world...

Now, I'm sure you will want to "cherry pick" location as well after reading that (it is so easy to redefine everything continuously to fit into our belief system isn't it) so lets move closer to home so lets look at our own country and we won't talk about the KKK since you will dismiss them as well. Are all the molestations of young boys and girls by Priests recent enough? Christian Groups like the Army of God who have attacked abortion clinics and doctors across the US. Remember Eric Robert Rudolph, a Christian terrorist who did the bomb at the Atlanta Olympics. A few years ago the Department of Homeland Security said that the Hutaree Christian militia movement possessed more weapons than the combined weapons holdings of all Islamic terror defendants charged in the US since the September 11 attacks.

OK, you want to consider "your church" not "as violent as the Islamic church" using your words then be my guest. Nice measuring stick you are using there. I guess Pol Pot and Attila The Hun aren't so bad when you compare him to Hitler either (whom I know you want to distance from as you've stated in the past despite the fact that he was baptized as a child and confirmed at 15 having been raised by a devout Catholic mother attending a monastery school and was certainly never excommunicated by the church who considered him in good standing and when Hitler publicly proclaimed ""hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord" you pretty much knew where he stood and how he justified his actions).

It is easy to throw stones (by both sides), can we instead look in the mirror first because only then will real change have a chance.

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December 1st, 2015, 10:06 am
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Post Re: 14 years ago...
At the end of the day, the problem is religion. The idea that people just blindly believe some dogma concocted by a bunch of cavemen a few thousand years ago and interpreted by a bunch of nuts and pedophiles is, when you really think about it, frightening.

That said, let's not kid ourselves. If you live in a Western country you can get away with openly mocking Christianity, burning Bibles, etc. If you do the same for Islam, you might literally be killed. Historically, Christianity has arguably been worse than Islam (the genocide of American Indians being partially attributable to the Catholic Church), but in the here and now, Islam is a greater threat. And I don't really think that's disputable, a few African warlords not withstanding.

One observation I've had that I find fascinating, however is this. At least on my social media, I see a lot of the following:

*Some Islamic nut kills a bunch of people*
Liberals: Don't blame Islam! Some people are just insane. There's nothing we can really do about it sadly outside of dismantling our entire foreign policy (a pipe dream).
Conservatives: Those Muslims are evil! Nuke the Middle East! That'll stop it!

*Some nut in the U.S. goes on a rampage and kills a bunch of people*
Conservatives: Don't blame guns! Some people are just insane. There's nothing we can really do it about it sadly outside of curing mental illness (a pipe dream).
Liberals: Guns are evil! Just get rid of guns in the U.S.! That'll stop it!


December 2nd, 2015, 3:33 am
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Post Re: 14 years ago...
Blueskies wrote:
At the end of the day, the problem is religion. The idea that people just blindly believe some dogma concocted by a bunch of cavemen a few thousand years ago and interpreted by a bunch of nuts and pedophiles is, when you really think about it, frightening.

That said, let's not kid ourselves. If you live in a Western country you can get away with openly mocking Christianity, burning Bibles, etc. If you do the same for Islam, you might literally be killed. Historically, Christianity has arguably been worse than Islam (the genocide of American Indians being partially attributable to the Catholic Church), but in the here and now, Islam is a greater threat. And I don't really think that's disputable, a few African warlords not withstanding.

One observation I've had that I find fascinating, however is this. At least on my social media, I see a lot of the following:

*Some Islamic nut kills a bunch of people*
Liberals: Don't blame Islam! Some people are just insane. There's nothing we can really do about it sadly outside of dismantling our entire foreign policy (a pipe dream).
Conservatives: Those Muslims are evil! Nuke the Middle East! That'll stop it!

*Some nut in the U.S. goes on a rampage and kills a bunch of people*
Conservatives: Don't blame guns! Some people are just insane. There's nothing we can really do it about it sadly outside of curing mental illness (a pipe dream).
Liberals: Guns are evil! Just get rid of guns in the U.S.! That'll stop it!


Couldn't have said it better myself. I absolutely agree with the bolded part especially.

While I think that Pablo's sentiment is commendable, self reflection HAS to be on both sides. What's happening now is, while we're looking at ourselves in the mirror, the other guys are stabbing us in the back. Look at India as an example, Hinduism, to a large extant is a very self-reflection oriented religion, so while their kings were doing the honorable and right things at the time, Islamic invaders just took advantage of the situation. Research the topic, it's very interesting, apparently the Muslims were defeated 16 times by the Hindu kings, who decided to spare the life of the invaders because that was the right thing to do. Guess what happened in the 17th battle?

Do you ever notice that any country with a Muslim majority is almost always a religious-Muslim country? Yet, their citizens who will not lift a finger for minorities in their own country will come to secular countries and fight for minority rights?

I guess what I'm trying to say is, don't hate an evil man, just hate the evil inside him. Don't hate Muslims, but we should try our best to stop Islam from spreading.


December 2nd, 2015, 9:39 am
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Post Re: 14 years ago...
DayDreamer - with all respect we are not looking in the mirror, our eyes are firmly fixed on Muslims and trying to figure out a way to stop them primarily through violent means and guess what - they eyes are firmly fixed on us. We have the upper hand in terms of man power, intelligence, weapons, resources, etc so they revert to terrorism as a way to combat that. That is a common tactic, in fact it is how American's fought the English in the 1,700's but you won't find anyone in this country calling it terrorism (and the term wasn't around back then). We label them rebels or freedom fighters - it's how we justified breaking most of the rules of engagement back then. Did the job and we consider them now Patriots and Heros - guess how our enemies view the people we label terrorists?

Point is that it is all about what side of the "line" you are in that gives you perspective. OK, so they are using worse methods than us presently - I'll give you that. You need to understand, however, that in war that is what the "underdogs" must resort too.

So when you and M2K say they are doing worse things, hopefully that gives a little perspective as too why. I also hope you now realize that if the roles were reverse, we would do the same.

Listen, I'm not saying they are more right than us - that is certainly not true. I, based on my location and upbringing have the same dog in this fight as everyone else. I'm just saying that we need to change our strategy. As I've mentioned earlier, continuing down this current path will lead to ever escalating senseless violence. We dig in more, they dig in more. We also know that their tactics and weaponry will only get better over time - were does that lead? More destruction. If that is what you, Sly, M2K and others want I have to disagree. The solution isn't to wipe them off the face of the planet (and they would want to do the same to us if we take that approach) as many of you would suggest - we have to take a different approach.

We've been fighting terrorism in the middle east how long now? Have we stopped it yet? Do you feel safer now than a year ago, the year before that? These wars between Muslim and Christians and Jews and ..... have been going on for thousands of years - how's that working out? Can we not learn from the past? Can we not all push for humanity evolve to a higher level?

I think we have actually made a lot of progress in the last few decades. There are aspects of things like "political correctness" that drive me made as well but are necessary to help get us where we eventually need to be. Of course, many are afraid of and resist change, that's inevitable. But I want a better world for my two sons and their eventually families years from now - we won't achieve that continuing down the same primitive path man has taken us down especially as destructive capabilities continue to expand.

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December 2nd, 2015, 11:40 am
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Post Re: 14 years ago...
Pablo wrote:
DayDreamer - with all respect we are not looking in the mirror, our eyes are firmly fixed on Muslims and trying to figure out a way to stop them primarily through violent means and guess what - they eyes are firmly fixed on us. We have the upper hand in terms of man power, intelligence, weapons, resources, etc so they revert to terrorism as a way to combat that. That is a common tactic, in fact it is how American's fought the English in the 1,700's but you won't find anyone in this country calling it terrorism (and the term wasn't around back then). We label them rebels or freedom fighters - it's how we justified breaking most of the rules of engagement back then. Did the job and we consider them now Patriots and Heros - guess how our enemies view the people we label terrorists?

Point is that it is all about what side of the "line" you are in that gives you perspective. OK, so they are using worse methods than us presently - I'll give you that. You need to understand, however, that in war that is what the "underdogs" must resort too.

So when you and M2K say they are doing worse things, hopefully that gives a little perspective as too why. I also hope you now realize that if the roles were reverse, we would do the same.

Listen, I'm not saying they are more right than us - that is certainly not true. I, based on my location and upbringing have the same dog in this fight as everyone else. I'm just saying that we need to change our strategy. As I've mentioned earlier, continuing down this current path will lead to ever escalating senseless violence. We dig in more, they dig in more. We also know that their tactics and weaponry will only get better over time - were does that lead? More destruction. If that is what you, Sly, M2K and others want I have to disagree. The solution isn't to wipe them off the face of the planet (and they would want to do the same to us if we take that approach) as many of you would suggest - we have to take a different approach.

We've been fighting terrorism in the middle east how long now? Have we stopped it yet? Do you feel safer now than a year ago, the year before that? These wars between Muslim and Christians and Jews and ..... have been going on for thousands of years - how's that working out? Can we not learn from the past? Can we not all push for humanity evolve to a higher level?

I think we have actually made a lot of progress in the last few decades. There are aspects of things like "political correctness" that drive me made as well but are necessary to help get us where we eventually need to be. Of course, many are afraid of and resist change, that's inevitable. But I want a better world for my two sons and their eventually families years from now - we won't achieve that continuing down the same primitive path man has taken us down especially as destructive capabilities continue to expand.



Sorry Pablo...The whole part about comparing our founding fathers to modern day terrorist is total bullcrap. When they stop attacking civilian targets you MIGHT have a leg to stand on. But as long as they are attacking civilians, they do not deserve the respect that freedom fighters in other countries of the world are entitled to. Freedom fighters attack military targets to weaken their enemies. Modern terrerists attack unarmed masses just for the body count.

I am in the field saying it is downright ignorant to call all Muslims terrorists. But to even call terrorists "soldiers" is an insult to all REAL soldier who put on a uniform for any country. Saying the Muslim extremists are anything shy of monsters is over sympathizing. It's not just what they are doing, it's who they are targeting. No founding father ever said "there will be women and children casualties? GREAT!"

Just.....just stop with that.

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December 2nd, 2015, 1:27 pm
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Post Re: 14 years ago...
Pablo wrote:
DayDreamer - with all respect we are not looking in the mirror, our eyes are firmly fixed on Muslims and trying to figure out a way to stop them primarily through violent means and guess what - they eyes are firmly fixed on us. We have the upper hand in terms of man power, intelligence, weapons, resources, etc so they revert to terrorism as a way to combat that. That is a common tactic, in fact it is how American's fought the English in the 1,700's but you won't find anyone in this country calling it terrorism (and the term wasn't around back then). We label them rebels or freedom fighters - it's how we justified breaking most of the rules of engagement back then. Did the job and we consider them now Patriots and Heros - guess how our enemies view the people we label terrorists?

Point is that it is all about what side of the "line" you are in that gives you perspective. OK, so they are using worse methods than us presently - I'll give you that. You need to understand, however, that in war that is what the "underdogs" must resort too.

So when you and M2K say they are doing worse things, hopefully that gives a little perspective as too why. I also hope you now realize that if the roles were reverse, we would do the same.

Listen, I'm not saying they are more right than us - that is certainly not true. I, based on my location and upbringing have the same dog in this fight as everyone else. I'm just saying that we need to change our strategy. As I've mentioned earlier, continuing down this current path will lead to ever escalating senseless violence. We dig in more, they dig in more. We also know that their tactics and weaponry will only get better over time - were does that lead? More destruction. If that is what you, Sly, M2K and others want I have to disagree. The solution isn't to wipe them off the face of the planet (and they would want to do the same to us if we take that approach) as many of you would suggest - we have to take a different approach.

We've been fighting terrorism in the middle east how long now? Have we stopped it yet? Do you feel safer now than a year ago, the year before that? These wars between Muslim and Christians and Jews and ..... have been going on for thousands of years - how's that working out? Can we not learn from the past? Can we not all push for humanity evolve to a higher level?

I think we have actually made a lot of progress in the last few decades. There are aspects of things like "political correctness" that drive me made as well but are necessary to help get us where we eventually need to be. Of course, many are afraid of and resist change, that's inevitable. But I want a better world for my two sons and their eventually families years from now - we won't achieve that continuing down the same primitive path man has taken us down especially as destructive capabilities continue to expand.


Pablo, I never said wiping Muslims off the planet was the way to go. As a matter of fact, I explicitly said in an earlier post that we shouldn't do that. You've lumped me with sly, m2k etc and looking at my posts with the same point of view. I agree with you that what we're doing isn't working, but you went too far, I don't know if you got carried away, but nobody that attacked and killed innocent civilians was considered a hero in modern times. Read the last line of my post, I don't think all Muslims are bad, I just think Islam is horrible.

That aside, I still don't see you showing any solution to the problems the world is having with Islamic terrorism today. My solution is simple, economic and trade sanctions on religious countries will effectively end all funding to terrorism, it is no secret that almost all money for terrorist outfits comes from Islamic countries like Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iran etc.

I have a particular bone to pick with both political parties here, Democrats on one hand make no excuses about their love towards Muslim countries, Republicans on the other hand give all sorts of anti-Islamic rhetoric, yet they will embrace these countries with open arms every chance they get. I don't understand why no one ever questions this. IF, and it's a big if, we stop trading with, accepting immigrants from, and giving aid to, all religious countries, there might be some initial turmoil, but I can guarantee that you will see a sharp decline in both terrorism, and the spread of Islam in the long run. Doing this isn't an easy task, but I can see both Russia and China joining hands with the USA in this matter.


December 2nd, 2015, 1:57 pm
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Post Re: 14 years ago...
regularjoe12 wrote:


Sorry Pablo...The whole part about comparing our founding fathers to modern day terrorist is total bullcrap. When they stop attacking civilian targets you MIGHT have a leg to stand on. But as long as they are attacking civilians, they do not deserve the respect that freedom fighters in other countries of the world are entitled to. Freedom fighters attack military targets to weaken their enemies. Modern terrerists attack unarmed masses just for the body count.

I am in the field saying it is downright ignorant to call all Muslims terrorists. But to even call terrorists "soldiers" is an insult to all REAL soldier who put on a uniform for any country. Saying the Muslim extremists are anything shy of monsters is over sympathizing. It's not just what they are doing, it's who they are targeting. No founding father ever said "there will be women and children casualties? GREAT!"

Just.....just stop with that.


I agree with you: Comparing American revolutionaries to Islamic terrorists is out of line.

That said, the American military right now kills plenty of civilians. They'll bomb some wedding or some factory or some area knowing full well that they're going to kill a bunch of innocent people. But they do it anyway, arguing that it's OK because they're really aiming for the bad guys. Morally, I'm not sure there's much of a difference.

Again, the solution is simple but incredibly hard to execute: Get off oil. Suddenly, we'd have no reason to bomb them anymore, and they'd have no money to finance their terrorist schools. Regimes like the House of Saud that perpetuate Islamic fundamentalism would probably be toppled by revolutionaries overnight.


December 2nd, 2015, 2:09 pm
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Post Re: 14 years ago...
regularjoe12 wrote:
Sorry Pablo...The whole part about comparing our founding fathers to modern day terrorist is total bullcrap. When they stop attacking civilian targets you MIGHT have a leg to stand on. But as long as they are attacking civilians, they do not deserve the respect that freedom fighters in other countries of the world are entitled to. Freedom fighters attack military targets to weaken their enemies. Modern terrerists attack unarmed masses just for the body count.

I am in the field saying it is downright ignorant to call all Muslims terrorists. But to even call terrorists "soldiers" is an insult to all REAL soldier who put on a uniform for any country. Saying the Muslim extremists are anything shy of monsters is over sympathizing. It's not just what they are doing, it's who they are targeting. No founding father ever said "there will be women and children casualties? GREAT!"

Just.....just stop with that.


OK, I guess you were raised with history only from an US perspective. BTW - did I say founding fathers? The US fighters back then were everyone, a farmer with a shotgun was a fighter. The British soldiers were very easy to identify with their "redcoat" uniforms - how easy do you think it was for them to figure out who to fight back in the 18th century?

There were generally accepted rules of war of which the US completely ignored. You would have line of British soldiers lined up in formation for battle with the US fighters hiding behind trees and rocks simply taking them out. The hit and run of use of guerilla warfare, basically fighting the Brits and then blending back into the regular community was the first use of such tactics in the modern era. This made it very difficult for the Brits to even know who they were fighting - sound familiar. The US struggled against these same tactics in Vietnam. The privateering of American vessels to fight the war was a violation of the norms of war as well (somewhat similar to how we currently view Somali pirates today).

Of course they were not the same as terrorist today, I'm just pointing out some parallels again to add extra perspective. I'm also trying to point out why the "underdog" in a fight resorts to tactics that the more powerful foe finds extremely offensive.

As Blueskies correctly pointed out, the US does kill plenty of civilians. We call there "casualties of war", again another label we light to slap on things to make it sounds less than it really is. I found it amazing how little media coverage was given to the recent bombings in Kunduz where US bombs took out the Doctors without borders. The death toll, last I heard, was at least 30 and countless more injured. In fact, go ask the person right next to you if they even know what occurred in Kunduz in October? What does that tell you? It tells you that we have only one perspective on things and it is very skewed. Now flip the script and imagine if terrorists took out 30 civilians here in the US in an attack - how much press would that get?

If you can't look in the mirror, and perhaps that is asking too much, how about learning a little empathy? For believers, the Bible has many great quotes on empathy (as does the Quran BTW):

Hebrews 10:24-25 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

Galatians 6:2-3 Share each other’s burdens, and in this way obey the law of Christ. If you think you are too important to help someone, you are only fooling yourself. You are not that important.

and two of my all time favorites:

Matthew 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Luke 6:31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.

Great advice!

Al Quran 16:91 Indeed, Allah enjoins justice, and the doing of good to others; and giving like kindred; and forbids indecency, and manifest evil, and wrongful transgression. He admonished you that you may take heed.

Or as Rodney King pointed out "Can we all get along?"

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December 2nd, 2015, 2:45 pm
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Post Re: 14 years ago...
Pablo wrote:
regularjoe12 wrote:
Sorry Pablo...The whole part about comparing our founding fathers to modern day terrorist is total bullcrap. When they stop attacking civilian targets you MIGHT have a leg to stand on. But as long as they are attacking civilians, they do not deserve the respect that freedom fighters in other countries of the world are entitled to. Freedom fighters attack military targets to weaken their enemies. Modern terrerists attack unarmed masses just for the body count.

I am in the field saying it is downright ignorant to call all Muslims terrorists. But to even call terrorists "soldiers" is an insult to all REAL soldier who put on a uniform for any country. Saying the Muslim extremists are anything shy of monsters is over sympathizing. It's not just what they are doing, it's who they are targeting. No founding father ever said "there will be women and children casualties? GREAT!"

Just.....just stop with that.


OK, I guess you were raised with history only from an US perspective. BTW - did I say founding fathers? The US fighters back then were everyone, a farmer with a shotgun was a fighter. The British soldiers were very easy to identify with their "redcoat" uniforms - how easy do you think it was for them to figure out who to fight back in the 18th century?

There were generally accepted rules of war of which the US completely ignored. You would have line of British soldiers lined up in formation for battle with the US fighters hiding behind trees and rocks simply taking them out. The hit and run of use of guerilla warfare, basically fighting the Brits and then blending back into the regular community was the first use of such tactics in the modern era. This made it very difficult for the Brits to even know who they were fighting - sound familiar. The US struggled against these same tactics in Vietnam. The privateering of American vessels to fight the war was a violation of the norms of war as well (somewhat similar to how we currently view Somali pirates today).

Of course they were not the same as terrorist today, I'm just pointing out some parallels again to add extra perspective. I'm also trying to point out why the "underdog" in a fight resorts to tactics that the more powerful foe finds extremely offensive.

As Blueskies correctly pointed out, the US does kill plenty of civilians. We call there "casualties of war", again another label we light to slap on things to make it sounds less than it really is. I found it amazing how little media coverage was given to the recent bombings in Kunduz where US bombs took out the Doctors without borders. The death toll, last I heard, was at least 30 and countless more injured. In fact, go ask the person right next to you if they even know what occurred in Kunduz in October? What does that tell you? It tells you that we have only one perspective on things and it is very skewed. Now flip the script and imagine if terrorists took out 30 civilians here in the US in an attack - how much press would that get?

If you can't look in the mirror, and perhaps that is asking too much, how about learning a little empathy? For believers, the Bible has many great quotes on empathy (as does the Quran BTW):

Hebrews 10:24-25 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

Galatians 6:2-3 Share each other’s burdens, and in this way obey the law of Christ. If you think you are too important to help someone, you are only fooling yourself. You are not that important.

and two of my all time favorites:

Matthew 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Luke 6:31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.

Great advice!

Al Quran 16:91 Indeed, Allah enjoins justice, and the doing of good to others; and giving like kindred; and forbids indecency, and manifest evil, and wrongful transgression. He admonished you that you may take heed.

Or as Rodney King pointed out "Can we all get along?"

Perspective schermective! The targets...were they military? Or civilian? IF YOU MUST insist on comparing heartless murderers to what the Amercans have done, you have Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Gorilla warfar is not even on the same level as modern terrorism. It's all about the targets IMO. Are the attacks meant to weaken you opponents forces? What military forces were in Paris? The Boston marathon? None. The comparisons you make are flat out wrong based on that alone.

As far as "collateral damage" goes... There is no such thing as a war with no civilian casualties. For any country, and Throughout all of human history. I think that's why most of us strive for peace. But these fudge are AIMING for civilian casualties. That's all they want is a body count. That's not fighting a war. That's murder. They are murderers not soldiers. Even the Vietcong don't deserve your comparison.

P.s. You may not have used the words founding fathers, but when you talk about the colonists who fought against England, that is exactly who you are talking about.

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December 2nd, 2015, 4:07 pm
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Post Re: 14 years ago...
So there was just a shooting in California.

Doesn't seem like they really know who did it.

If it turns out it was three crazy white guys, the liberals will be going nuts about gun control.

If it turns out they were Arab, or Muslim, the conservatives will be going nuts about Islam.

And yet they seemingly can't see the hypocrisy.


December 2nd, 2015, 4:53 pm
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Post Re: 14 years ago...
regularjoe12 wrote:
Perspective schermective!


We can come back to that.

regularjoe12 wrote:
targets...were they military? Or civilian?


Well since the civilian's were across an ocean and the weapons were not very advanced, well you have your answer. That said, we can easily look to the indigenous people here who we also went to war against - many of those targets were absolutely civilian. We again use labels like "savages" to justify our killings - imagine that.

regularjoe12 wrote:
IF YOU MUST insist on comparing heartless murderers to what the Amercan's have done, you have Hiroshima and Nagasaki.


Thanks for making just another point for me. Let's see that is somewhere between 130k-226k people killed, the vast amount of those civilian (BTW - Japan "targeted" a military base).

Think about that number - how does it compare to the 9/11, Paris and other "terrorist" attacks? I guess I'd use a term like "Perspective schermective" too because the true perspective of just how evil we have been as well is outrageous yet we can overlook it so easy.

Our history skims over things like this. You will hear statements like "think about how many people we saved" by dropping the bombs. People buy into this because they want to "believe" what they want to "believe" - that we are the "good guys" and everyone against us are the bad guys.

Quick - what dates did we drop the bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Go ask those around you that. Then ask them when Pearl Harbor Day is - many more will know that. So we all remember a day when 2,400 people, were killed but not on dates when we whipped out huge cities and hundreds of thousands of civilians... Still not getting any perspective? Then go back to "Perspective schermective" because I can't help you and nobody else can either...

We need to start seeing each other as humans, that is it and then respect human life. All these stupid labels we put on each other leads to all the problems. We are too angry, want to label each other so badly, so that we can justify evil. How sad...

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December 2nd, 2015, 8:38 pm
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