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 Gun Control 
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Joined: December 18th, 2008, 9:18 am
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Post Re: Gun Control
UK Lion wrote:
You're seriously accusing the LGBT community of hypocrisy in the immediate aftermath of Orlando? I don't know whether to :lol: or :cry:

You really think that the LGBT have not blamed this atrocity on hatred and bigotry, as well as guns? Sheesh.


I didn't mean to be insensitive. But all those pictures I saw of rallies where the LGBT community was showing solidarity to Islam is what provoked my response.

They've been persecuted more than any other community in the past by almost all religions, and for them to show solidarity towards one of the worst offenders of all time, while actively opposing Christianity is just not logical.

For disclosure, I'm neither Christian nor Muslim nor gay. And I have good friends in all 3 of those communities. And guess what, most LGBT people I know, the non-political ones at least, agree with me on this.


June 15th, 2016, 11:26 am
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Post Re: Gun Control
The act of terrorism was motivated by hatred and bigotry.

The LGBT community is being incredibly brave in standing up against further hatred and bigotry against the Muslim community: saying it does not want racism in its name in response to an attack on them. Islam, as with many other religions (and other organisations - here's looking at you, GOP ...) has issues with homosexuality that should be addressed and improved on. But hate will not solve those issues - nor will terrorism or prejudice.

Given that backdrop, I have nothing but admiration for the LGBT community in this. It is one of the best examples of "love thy neighbour" I have seen.

And when it comes to plans to treat people differently because of their religion, the LGBT community is absolutely right to say: not in Orlando's name.


June 15th, 2016, 3:08 pm
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Post Re: Gun Control
Islam is not a race. Hating muslims is not the same thing as hating black people, or arabs, or women, or any other ethnicity/gender.

You choose to be a Muslim. You choose to be a Christian. You choose to be an atheist. You can change your position if you want. One cannot change their gender (lol Caitlyn Jenner). One cannot change their race. To hate people for features that they cannot fundamentally change is quite different from hating them for the beliefs they hold, which they can change.

For example, I hate communists. Literally. They are advocating for a philosophy which leads to totalitarian exploitation, starvation, and death. Many people in this country understand that, and they have no problem with someone saying they hate communists. Likewise, many people on the left hate libertarians. That's fine. But for some reason, we pretend religious beliefs are above the fray. That they're not open to criticism.

They are open to criticism. And they should be criticised. We have strong freedom of speech laws in this country, that I am grateful for. But in your country, UK Lion, you do have hate speech laws. If you applied them to the Bible, or the Koran, or the Torah, or many other holy books, you'd find vast passages that qualify.

There are 10 countries where homosexuality is punished by death. They're all Muslim countries.

The Hadith calls for Muslims to kill homosexuals.

Islam is a barbaric religion that should go away. And if you are a fundamentalist believer in it, then I do think less of you as a person for clinging to an ideology of bigotry.

However, I certainly don't discriminate. The same is true for orthodox judaism and born-again Christianity.

I have gay friends who, in the wake of the Orlando shooting, have begun to grow wary of Islam. They were already wary of Christianity.

It won't happen this year, or next year, or for many decades. Millions more people will likely have to die. But I have faith that one day, humanity will see religious belief for the cancer that it is.

As for "moderate" believers -- you may not be guilty or anything. You may not be a danger to anyone. But why are you cherishing and holding dear books and philosophies that advocate for things like slavery, the killing of homosexuals, and genocide?

If I wrote a book, and in it I said god told me to kill all the gays, and some nut read my book and did it, I would bashed for inciting violence. In Europe, I might even be jailed. But if I had wrote that book 1,000 years ago, everyone looks the other way. And in fact, goes out of their way to protect me from criticism. It's garbage.

Why? Because you're afraid of what happens when you die? Grow up.


June 15th, 2016, 4:00 pm
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Post Re: Gun Control
UK Lion wrote:
The act of terrorism was motivated by hatred and bigotry.

The LGBT community is being incredibly brave in standing up against further hatred and bigotry against the Muslim community: saying it does not want racism in its name in response to an attack on them. Islam, as with many other religions (and other organisations - here's looking at you, GOP ...) has issues with homosexuality that should be addressed and improved on. But hate will not solve those issues - nor will terrorism or prejudice.

Given that backdrop, I have nothing but admiration for the LGBT community in this. It is one of the best examples of "love thy neighbour" I have seen.

And when it comes to plans to treat people differently because of their religion, the LGBT community is absolutely right to say: not in Orlando's name.


Hey hey hey... don't throw words like bigotry around. I have no intolerance for people who believe in different things than me. I have however, a strong dislike towards theologies that are based on books written centuries ago. I don't think that qualifies as bigotry. As Blueskies said, I would be wrong if I hated Muslims, but I don't. I just think Islam as a religion should either be fundamentally changed, or should be discouraged strongly.

If you don't admit there's a problem, how will you solve it. And Islam as it is today has some major problem. Wouldn't you agree?


June 15th, 2016, 4:14 pm
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Post Re: Gun Control
UK, that's where you're wrong. It's not an act of hatred or bigotry. Islam believes they're doing it out of compassion for homosexuals. To them, it's an act of love and compassion. This is where the incompatibility with what you hold dear and islam comes into focus. This isn't the radical views, it's the standard. 100% of British muslims think homosexuality is intolerable. 100%. Not 50, not 75, but all of them polled believe it's unacceptable. And the majority of them want it to be illegal. So while our western civilization moves towards acceptance and legalization, their growing numbers want to move backwards towards punishment. Being nice and turning the other cheek won't work, especially when you want to import millions more.


June 15th, 2016, 5:29 pm
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Post Re: Gun Control
Daydreamer - sorry, I read that back and I did not express myself well.

Firstly, your post explaining your position was a good one and I appreciated that. Should have said that in my reply.

Secondly, and more importantly: I was not accusing you of hate or bigotry. Very sorry my post came across in that way.

My post was directed at certain, more high profile, people who wish to treat Muslims differently solely because of their religion. Whether you consider that racism or not, I think it is hatred and bigotry and the start of a path that has not led to a good place. History tells us that treating people differently solely because of their religion does not end well. The US has a proud history of freedom of religion, and has been a world leader in this. It is sad to see this at risk for a McCarthyite witch hunt.

Islam (as with many religions) has huge issues with its treatment of homosexuality. The Muslim US citizen who committed this act may have been a closeted homosexual - his father has made it quite clear what his views of homosexuality are (whilst he says his son was wrong, this is because god will dole out the punishment for homosexuality, not man - which is remarkably similar to the "love the sinner, hate the sin" rubbish I've heard from plenty of non-Muslim religious people over the years). Growing up with parents and community elders telling you that what you are is wrong is going to play a part in messing someone up.

Islam has these problems. Christianity has these problems. The Republican party, with its opposition to LGBT rights, has these problems. Society as a whole has these problems (it has got so much better over the past 50 years - but it still has a some way to go). If I was ranking them on a scale, Islam would be higher than any of the others, that's for sure. But the right response to these issues isn't hate. It isn't treating people differently purely because of their religion. And a number of members of the LGBT community want to make it clear that any attempts to discriminate against people because of their religion will not be done in their name.


June 16th, 2016, 4:13 am
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Post Re: Gun Control
There's a difference between not discriminating and ignoring. The PC culture has led to government agencies stopping investigations because it might offend. That's the issue. Multiple attacks have come out of this mosques now and we're not vetting people properly. Yes, this kid was a US citizen, who's parents shouldn't have been allowed to immigrate due to to pro-taliban beliefs. A first generation muslim isn't homegrown. Islam doesn't fit the role of every other religion, because only Islam has a political ideology built into it. That political ideology doesn't mix with the constitution here or the laws of your country. A sovereign nation needs to have it's laws matter, and matter first above any other. The political correctness when it comes to Islam is putting it first and that'd led to these problems. It's simple... you can be a muslim, but our laws matter. If you think you don't have to abide by them, you shouldn't and can't be here.

Islam needs to catch up to the 20th century like every other religion. Yes, others might have views about homosexuality, women and other things that might seem to go against the narrative of modern society, but Islam is the only religion that actively kills and executes people for these beliefs. Other religions don't need segregated trains and pools like in Germany because they can't learn to stop raping or groping women.

Back on topic, The agencies gave this guy a pass because he was a muslim. They passed his background checks because every report against his actions because they didn't want to offend him. That's why he was able to get a job at the largest security firm in the world. That's why he was able to purchase guns. A background check will show any wrong doing. It won't list stopped investigations. How about we treat everyone equally and stop worrying about if someone is triggered or if an investigation will offend someone. That would have stopped this guy years ago. So we have countless school shootings, all due to the inability or refusal of the government to link mental health to background checks, and two terrorist shootings because the government didn't want to offend. So again, the solution is something that won't solve the problem. Genius.


June 16th, 2016, 10:19 am
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Post Re: Gun Control
There are a lot of claims of favourable treatment for Muslims there njroar that don't seem to be backed up within your post, and that I haven't seen anything about elsewhere either.

What evidence is there that agencies gave him a pass because he was a muslim?


June 16th, 2016, 11:04 am
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Post Re: Gun Control
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/na ... story.html

Quote:
When interviewed by the FBI, Mateen claimed he made the statements in anger because his co-workers were teasing him about being a Muslim and he felt discriminated against.

“The evidence developed during the investigation was consistent with his explanation that he had said these things to try to freak out his co-workers,” Comey said.


Alone, it doesn't sound like anything wrong, but look up Philip Haney. He's a DHS whistleblower that said his department, which was investigating the connections out of this Florida mosque and it's network across the US, scrubbed the database of everyone under direction of the Clinton State Department and DOJ due to possibly offending muslims. He didn't say this a few days ago, he revealed this back in 2013 and said it again after the San Bernardino attack, since those individuals were from the same mosque.

So if the FBI couldn't investigate the mosque while investigating Mateen, of course they have to give him a pass. If you google it, you'll only find the info from infowars and other rightwing publications, but the documents are federal, so why isn't the MSM bringing it up at all? I won't use them as sources since it's reason enough for most to just dismiss the idea, regardless of its merit. One mosque linked to the two US based terror attacks and zero investigations into it? And that doesn't generate news coverage?


June 16th, 2016, 12:27 pm
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Post Re: Gun Control
How did an MP get shot to death in a country that banned guns?


June 16th, 2016, 1:11 pm
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Post Re: Gun Control
Oh, it's a "MSM don't report it" thing? I'll file it away with 911 being an inside job.

Not sure yet - too early to be able to tell what occurred. Initial reports suggest it was an antique weapon. Whatever the ins and outs of this specific case, our rates of gun homicide are lower than those in the US.

And if you're looking abroad for examples: Australia data shows gun controls a huge success 20 years after mass shooting- http://www.reuters.com/article/us-australia-guns-idUSKCN0XP0HG

EDIT: I don't think the UK or Australia are very good examples for the US, which has an entirely different culture when it comes to guns. So I don't think what we have would work in the US. Just raise those things to counter the rather cheap "someone just got shot in your country too" dig.


June 16th, 2016, 1:43 pm
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Post Re: Gun Control
Yes, file it away as a conspiracy theory, yet realize that this is actually happening. If you only trust what the media says and refuse to do any research yourself, you live a very uninformed life.

Overall statistics mean nothing when the reason for the ban was said to eliminate this from EVER happening. The population of the UK compared to the US is small. You don't have the cities with the population centers that we do with the gang problems we do and that's what skews the gun violence data. The majority of the US that has very lax laws are safer than Australia and the UK. You keep going back to the overall number that includes Chicago, where more die than Iraq and Afghanistan combined over the same periods, LA, NY, DC, etc.. that have high gun violence rates but have or had gun bans in place. Did you now that outside of gang shootings, the highest accidental gun rate is police officers shooting themselves? Statistics are meaningless when the rhetoric doesn't match the data.


June 16th, 2016, 2:07 pm
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Post Re: Gun Control
Can't say I'm surprised to get the stock conspiracy theorist "educate yourself, sheeple" response.

I didn't say the absolute number - I said rates: ie gun homicides per capita. The gun homicides per capita in the US were over 42 times higher than the UK in 2012 (latest stats I could get hold of). 42 times higher.

And no one ever claimed that the ban would eliminate gun homicides entirely, but nice straw man there, congrats. The idea was to reduce them.


June 17th, 2016, 5:04 am
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Post Re: Gun Control
UK Lion wrote:
Daydreamer - sorry, I read that back and I did not express myself well.

Firstly, your post explaining your position was a good one and I appreciated that. Should have said that in my reply.

Secondly, and more importantly: I was not accusing you of hate or bigotry. Very sorry my post came across in that way.

My post was directed at certain, more high profile, people who wish to treat Muslims differently solely because of their religion. Whether you consider that racism or not, I think it is hatred and bigotry and the start of a path that has not led to a good place. History tells us that treating people differently solely because of their religion does not end well. The US has a proud history of freedom of religion, and has been a world leader in this. It is sad to see this at risk for a McCarthyite witch hunt.

Islam (as with many religions) has huge issues with its treatment of homosexuality. The Muslim US citizen who committed this act may have been a closeted homosexual - his father has made it quite clear what his views of homosexuality are (whilst he says his son was wrong, this is because god will dole out the punishment for homosexuality, not man - which is remarkably similar to the "love the sinner, hate the sin" rubbish I've heard from plenty of non-Muslim religious people over the years). Growing up with parents and community elders telling you that what you are is wrong is going to play a part in messing someone up.

Islam has these problems. Christianity has these problems. The Republican party, with its opposition to LGBT rights, has these problems. Society as a whole has these problems (it has got so much better over the past 50 years - but it still has a some way to go). If I was ranking them on a scale, Islam would be higher than any of the others, that's for sure. But the right response to these issues isn't hate. It isn't treating people differently purely because of their religion. And a number of members of the LGBT community want to make it clear that any attempts to discriminate against people because of their religion will not be done in their name.


UK Lion, Apology accepted. We do have quite a bit of common ground, Muslims should not be treated any differently than the rest of us. It's just that Islam as a religion needs some wholesale reforms, Christianity might have been just as bad years ago, but they realized the problem, and addressed it, with the New Testament, and the Pope etc etc. The major issue with Islam is that it is the same religion now as it was centuries ago. They refuse to accept the problem with that, instead blaming mainstream media, right wing Christians, and whoever they want, for that matter.

As non-Muslims, there isn't much we can do to resolve this issue, other than trying our best to make them realize the truth. And when we do that, we get bunched into the Trump-esque haters.


June 17th, 2016, 10:21 am
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Post Re: Gun Control
So this is what it has come down to for me - I think I am coming down on the side of needing gun control, yet I'm also thinking of buying a gun and could use some help.

I'll be in Orlando in less than a month and given what happened there at the Pulse something obviously needs to be done, primarily along the lines of certain gun types and our background check system is obviously flawed.

Living in Dallas it has been an interesting week given the police massacre during the protests. On a personal note, we had a neighbors grandson and his friend go on a vandalism spree early Sunday morning that included slashing many car tire including all four of my wife's tires and three of my four.

With an 8 and 9-year-old boys living in the house, I've always thought having a gun could present more problems than it solves. But with that said, if I was to buy a gun simply for protection what do y'all recommend - I would be leaning towards a simple handgun. Also, for a smaller gun, I wouldn't need a gun locker but how do you keep it away from kids? A small locked box?

Thanks in advance...

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July 11th, 2016, 1:27 pm
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