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ST Coordinator – Danny Crossman

Joined: March 22nd, 2005, 8:42 pm
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From the Washington Post above:

"ACLU leaders contend that the memos show that FBI and government Joint Terrorism Task Forces across the country have expanded the definition of domestic terrorism to people who engage in mainstream political activity, including nonviolent protest and civil disobedience.

"The FBI should use its resources to investigate credible threats to national security instead of spending time tracking innocent Americans who criticize government policy, or monitoring groups that have not broken the law," ACLU Associate Legal Director Ann Beeson said. Previously released papers showed that the FBI kept files that mentioned the organizations, she said, "But we didn't know that they actually launched counterterrorism investigations into these groups."

Who is complacent about AQ? Seems to me that Osama has bin Forgotten so that US tax dollars could be funneled to Halliburton. I also fail to see how spying on dissidents makes us safe from Islamic terrorism? That is the point of the 9/11 comment. Bush uses fear of terrorism to go after domestic critics and to promote extreme policies that benefit corporations. I know for a fact that AQ is very committed and in some ways in a better position to make another strike. We are paralyzed until we get rid of this faulty CPU.

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December 21st, 2005, 1:05 pm
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The problem is that the administration is just taking on power. The same administration basing its decisions on the same intelligence that led us into a "war" with Iraq that was unjustified and even the President recently has said that much of the "intelligence" was wrong.

Now we are commited to what many have said including Colon Powell is a long term occupation in Iraq and terrorist feel more justified than ever to walk up to voting lines or police recruiting facilities in Iraq and detonate themselves.

The Bush administration has made countless errors of worse than Millenesque proportions. From CIA leaks (which the star witnesses believes that Bush has to know who leaked it), to weak intelligence, to questionable relationships with shoddy defense contractors, to overstepping their executative powers.

I guess I don't understand how a guy having a affair was so much bigger than a country being mislead into intiating war and having our rights drained away in the process.

I hear news stories and programs on a daily basis of the US and it's abuses...people being mistaken for terrorist held in captivity for months to years and then released with no regrets when it was a case of mistaken identity.

Quote:
WASHINGTON (AP) -- A federal judge has resigned from a special court set up to oversee government surveillance to protest President Bush's secret authorization of a domestic spying program on people with suspected terrorist ties, The Washington Post reported.


Quote:
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Three Democratic and two Republican senators have sent a letter to the leaders of the Senate's Judiciary and Intelligence committees, asking for an "immediate inquiry" into President Bush's authorization of a secret wiretapping program.


Quote:
(TIME) -- Reporters like to be the ones asking the questions, but the Valerie Plame leak investigation just hasn't been working that way. In his quest to find out whether White House officials leaked that Plame was a CIA officer as a way to punish her husband Joseph Wilson, a former ambassador and a critic of the White House case for the Iraq war, special counsel Patrick Fitzgerald has got testimony from a parade of journalists, including Judith Miller of the New York Times, Matthew Cooper of TIME, NBC's Tim Russert and Bob Woodward of the Washington Post. Now add one more to the list: TIME correspondent Viveca Novak.




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December 21st, 2005, 4:14 pm
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Sounds like cowering into legalisms to me. Wasn't their talk about restoring respect to the Oval Office? Whether Bush's actions are determined illegal or not is second to the question of their morality. He was not spying on al Qaeda at all but on people he deemed his enemy, ordinary Americans like quackers and environmental lawyers. That is not about protecting Americans from al Qaeda as he would like you to think, but about using police powers to subdue natural dissidence to his obviously flawed policies. Using the FBI to spy on dissidents is a clear misuse of power and his playing the 9/11 card once again to justify it is such a tired ruse that I am surprised that people still fall for it.


There is no reports or evidence that wiretaps where used on those environmental groups, only on citizens making contact with foreign terrorists.

I find it funny that everyone is all of a sudden outraged at this presidental power, when it has been used by many presidents in the past including both Clinton and Carter, this is nothing new its a established presidental power.

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I did not realize there was an al Qaeda-PETA link. You learn something new every day.


No one said a AQ link, they did say terrorist, and the targeting of the U.S. food supply is terrorism.


December 21st, 2005, 6:59 pm
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HunterMSU wrote:
I find it funny that everyone is all of a sudden outraged at this presidental power, when it has been used by many presidents in the past including both Clinton and Carter, this is nothing new its a established presidental power.


My sentiments exactly. The way I look at it if you're not communicating with terrorists or extremists, then you have nothing to worry about. ITs not like they're sitting around listening to everyone's conversations. Do you think they have enought time for all of that??? Do these people that they're so damned important that the gov't wants to listen to them??? I guess I just don't understand.

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December 22nd, 2005, 9:13 am
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ST Coordinator – Danny Crossman

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The FISA judges appear to disagree with you Hunter.

Let's not lose sight of the DoD spying program with the NSA scandal. What is their constitutional mandate exactly?

http://blogs.washingtonpost.com/earlywarning/

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December 22nd, 2005, 1:37 pm
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"The way I look at it if you're not communicating with terrorists or extremists, then you have nothing to worry about."

Really? Please, meet my neighbor. His story is all too common. Who would have thought that flying to Zurich via JFK on your way to an engineering conference would lead you to such an adventure? On what constitutional basis can you deport a Canadian citizen to Syrian torturers?

http://www.maherarar.ca/mahers%20story.php

You might also remember that those abused at Abu Ghraib were not terrorists either?

"Its not like they're sitting around listening to everyone's conversations. Do you think they have enought time for all of that??? Do these people that they're so damned important that the gov't wants to listen to them???"

Actually the NSA has a computer that records every communication in the world or so they wish, in fact it is quite heavy on electronic communication. They do not read all of them as you might imagine.

"I guess I just don't understand."

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December 22nd, 2005, 1:43 pm
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Yorick wrote:
The FISA judges appear to disagree with you Hunter.

Let's not lose sight of the DoD spying program with the NSA scandal. What is their constitutional mandate exactly?

http://blogs.washingtonpost.com/earlywarning/


Its a established presidental power, in fact the Clinton admin. took it one step further to actually force entree into private property and search it with no warrent, as evidenced by the CIA spy Aldrich Ames case in which Clinton gave a presidental order to search Ames home without a warrent. And in fact the Deputy AG at the time testified in congress that:

Quote:
The Department of Justice believes, and the case law supports, that the president has inherent authority to conduct warrantless physical searches for foreign intelligence purposes,"


Jimmy Carter also signed a executive order allowing warrentless searches, http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/eo12139.htm


December 22nd, 2005, 7:17 pm
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Just because Clinton and Carter did it doesn't make it right. I know thats not what you were inferring, but I'm not going to turn a blind eye when my boy Slick Willy did it. I would have been just as mad at him as I am at W.

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December 22nd, 2005, 8:07 pm
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bsand2053 wrote:
Just because Clinton and Carter did it doesn't make it right. I know thats not what you were inferring, but I'm not going to turn a blind eye when my boy Slick Willy did it. I would have been just as mad at him as I am at W.


Thats kind of my point, very few people are even aware Clinton, Carter, or Reagan used the same presidential power, yet we are outraged when Bush does it, and it shows the clear media bias at work here because the other presidents uses of the power were hardly even reported yet Bush does it and its front page news.

Fact is its a established presidential power, there was nothing illegal about it, is it a challengable power?, maybe, but thats not what being argued right now in the mainstream, whats being talked about is it being illegal or a unprecedented action, and thats flat wrong it is neither, its both been used in the past and considered legal.

As i said conversations between a U.S. citizen and another U.S. citizen should be protected, but IMO conversations with foreign agents suspected of terrorist ties should not.


December 22nd, 2005, 9:01 pm
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ST Coordinator – Danny Crossman

Joined: March 22nd, 2005, 8:42 pm
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The propaganda machine makes a lot of statements but very few of them are facts.

Tom Daschle from WP OP-ED:

"The Bush administration now argues those powers were inherently contained in the resolution adopted by Congress -- but at the time, the administration clearly felt they weren't or it wouldn't have tried to insert the additional language.

All Americans agree that keeping our nation safe from terrorists demands aggressive and innovative tactics. This unity was reflected in the near-unanimous support for the original resolution and the Patriot Act in those harrowing days after Sept. 11. But there are right and wrong ways to defeat terrorists, and that is a distinction this administration has never seemed to accept. Instead of employing tactics that preserve Americans' freedoms and inspire the faith and confidence of the American people, the White House seems to have chosen methods that can only breed fear and suspicion.

If the stories in the media over the past week are accurate, the president has exercised authority that I do not believe is granted to him in the Constitution, and that I know is not granted to him in the law that I helped negotiate with his counsel and that Congress approved in the days after Sept. 11. For that reason, the president should explain the specific legal justification for his authorization of these actions, Congress should fully investigate these actions and the president's justification for them, and the administration should cooperate fully with that investigation.

In the meantime, if the president believes the current legal architecture of our country is insufficient for the fight against terrorism, he should propose changes to our laws in the light of day.

That is how a great democracy operates."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01101.html

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December 23rd, 2005, 7:31 am
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Yorick wrote:
The propaganda machine makes a lot of statements but very few of them are facts.

Tom Daschle from WP OP-ED:

"The Bush administration now argues those powers were inherently contained in the resolution adopted by Congress -- but at the time, the administration clearly felt they weren't or it wouldn't have tried to insert the additional language.

All Americans agree that keeping our nation safe from terrorists demands aggressive and innovative tactics. This unity was reflected in the near-unanimous support for the original resolution and the Patriot Act in those harrowing days after Sept. 11. But there are right and wrong ways to defeat terrorists, and that is a distinction this administration has never seemed to accept. Instead of employing tactics that preserve Americans' freedoms and inspire the faith and confidence of the American people, the White House seems to have chosen methods that can only breed fear and suspicion.

If the stories in the media over the past week are accurate, the president has exercised authority that I do not believe is granted to him in the Constitution, and that I know is not granted to him in the law that I helped negotiate with his counsel and that Congress approved in the days after Sept. 11. For that reason, the president should explain the specific legal justification for his authorization of these actions, Congress should fully investigate these actions and the president's justification for them, and the administration should cooperate fully with that investigation.

In the meantime, if the president believes the current legal architecture of our country is insufficient for the fight against terrorism, he should propose changes to our laws in the light of day.

That is how a great democracy operates."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01101.html

Whether or not the powers were included in the resolution passed by congress does not matter. The fact is that these this power has been ruled upon in numerous legal cases and every time it has come down that the President has inherent authority to conduct warrentless physical searches for foreign intelligence purposes. And, as was stated earlier, this power has been used many times by several different Prestidents, and it was never a problem before. Why is it suddenly a huge deal now? Hmmm, lets see... It's so transparent that all the "outrage" over this is nothing more than thinly veiled Bush hatred. Get over it. The President has the right to eavesdrop on call placed to suspected terrorist organizations, and I think that given the world we live in today, any President who doesn't do this is completely inept and shouldn't be in office.


December 23rd, 2005, 1:14 pm
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ST Coordinator – Danny Crossman

Joined: March 22nd, 2005, 8:42 pm
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It is hard to believe people still fall for the bait and switch. What is the expression, fool me once. . .

Of course, the Bush administration should go after AQ. What do you think the Patriot Act was for? If they wanted a warrant they drove to the judges house and got one in 3 hours 99.9% of the time. In fact in the thousands of cases they were refused 4 times since Bush was in office. Why then did they prevent the process?

Obviously because they wanted to spy on people the judges would not consent to, like average americans.

The first shoe drops.

http://news.yahoo.com/fc/World/Espionag ... elligence/

The bait and switch is to say that Bush did only what Clinton did. That is absurd. When did Clinton abduct foreign citizens, torture people, and set up secret prisons? This administration is out of control.

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December 24th, 2005, 12:53 pm
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ST Coordinator – Danny Crossman

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http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/24/politics/24spy.html

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December 24th, 2005, 12:56 pm
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